Evidence for a gap of time between Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2

[Quasar92]

There is a third option, Jesus did not lie and you misapplied these scriptures.

The restoration and new creation in days 5 and 6, did not begin, until AFTER the void and darkness of the earth, in verse 2.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

It's really this simple! God created everything in 6 days and rested on the 7th. No room for some manmade "gap theory" of undetermined time in 6 days of creation.

HalleluYah for God creating everything in 6 days and resting on the 7th, and giving us an example to follow

The six days of restoration/new creation of days 5 and 6, came AFTER the void and darkness of the earth in verse 2.


Quasar92

 

[DavidPT]

The six days of restoration/new creation of days 5 and 6, came AFTER the void and darkness of the earth in verse 2.


Quasar92

If there is a gap in Genesis 1, that means somewhere in the Bible there should be Scriptures describing what took place during this gap. Do you then have some Scriptures showing some of that? To me it seems ludicrous for there to be a gap of maybe millions of years in Genesis 1, and then the Bible being absolutely silent about this period of time.

 

[lismore]

What you have posted ll comes AFTER the void and darkness of the earth in verse 2, and debunks none of it.


Quasar92

For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them

There was no earth to be void and dark before the six days. The heavens, the earth and all that is in them were created in the six days.

God Bless

 

[Quasar92]

If there is a gap in Genesis 1, that means somewhere in the Bible there should be Scriptures describing what took place during this gap. Do you then have some Scriptures showing some of that? To me it seems ludicrous for there to be a gap of maybe millions of years in Genesis 1, and then the Bible being absolutely silent about this period of time.

Obviously, you're not interested in the evidence for a gap between Gen.1:1 and 2, and think the Bible should tell us about it when it has nothing to do with the theme of our Bibles, God's plan for our salvation through Jesus Christ.

I can provide you with much more about the gap theory than what I have posted, but it would serve no purpose to those with closed minds.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them

There was no earth to be void and dark before the six days. The heavens, the earth and all that is in them were created in the six days.

God Bless

As I previously stated, Gen.1:1 and 2 come BEFORE verse 3 and all the verses after 3.


Quasar92

 

[DavidPT]

Obviously, you're not interested in the evidence for a gap between Gen.1:1 and 2, and think the Bible should tell us about it when it has nothing to do with the theme of our Bibles, God's plan for our salvation through Jesus Christ.

I can provide you with much more about the gap theory than what I have posted, but it would serve no purpose to those with closed minds.


Quasar92

Since I'm assuming you are a reasonable person, how can you possibly think there is this gap when post #24 alone debunks that? So actually then, it is not I who is being closed minded, it is you, otherwise you would be open to the fact that post #24 alone debunks a gap theory.

 

[Quasar92]

Since I'm assuming you are a reasonable person, how can you possibly think there is this gap when post #24 alone debunks that? So actually then, it is not I who is being closed minded, it is you, otherwise you would be open to the fact that post #24 alone debunks a gap theory.

As far as I', concerned, post #24 came out of the Readers Digest, as there is no Scriptural ID as to the location or the author of the passage.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Since I'm assuming you are a reasonable person, how can you possibly think there is this gap when post #24 alone debunks that? So actually then, it is not I who is being closed minded, it is you, otherwise you would be open to the fact that post #24 alone debunks a gap theory.

I see no Scriptural ID nor of the author in post #24. Nor does it change a single thing I've shared here about a gap between Gen.1:1 and 2. In which there is a great deal more to write about.


Quasar92

 

[DavidPT]

As far as I', concerned, post #24 came out of the Readers Digest, as there is no Scriptural ID as to the location or the author of the passage.


Quasar92

Maybe this will help then. I'm pretty certain I didn't get this from the Readers Digest. Plus, I assumed everyone was already familiar with the passage that poster submitted in post #24 to begin with.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Since I have debated the gap theory numerous times in the past, I am familiar with a lot of the arguments gap theorists use to try and prove their view. One being this argument. The above passages say 'made' rather than 'created, and that Genesis 1 says God 'created' not 'made', the heaven and the earth in the beginning. But if we look in Genesis 1:31 we see the following though.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

And we also see He created as well, such as Genesis 1:27 shows, yet in verse 26 He says Let us make man in our image. It seems to me that make and create pretty much go together though not the same Hebrew words.

 

[DavidPT]

Dup post

 

[DavidPT]

Dup Post

 

[Quasar92]

Maybe this will help then. I'm pretty certain I didn't get this from the Readers Digest. Plus, I assumed everyone was already familiar with the passage that poster submitted in post #24 to begin with.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Since I have debated the gap theory numerous times in the past, I am familiar with a lot of the arguments gap theorists use to try and prove their view. One being this argument. The above passages say 'made' rather than 'created, and that Genesis 1 says God 'created' not 'made', the heaven and the earth in the beginning. But if we look in Genesis 1:31 we see the following though.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

And we also see He created as well, such as Genesis 1:27 shows, yet in verse 26 He says Let us make man in our image. It seems to me that make and create pretty much go together though not the same Hebrew words.

There is nothing you have contributed in the above that diminish the clear evidence of a gap of time between Gen.1:1 amd 2. Check out the following to further support n old earth age. The link at the bottom has considerably more than what I am posting:

The oldest human DNA ever recovered is throwing scientists for a loop: The 400,000-year-old genetic material comes from bones that have been linked to Neanderthals in Spain — but its signature is most similar to that of a different ancient human population from Siberia, known as the Denisovans.The researchers who did the analysis said their findings show an "unexpected link" between two of our extinct cousin species.

Follow-up studies could crack the mystery — not only for the early humans who lived in the cave complex known as Sima de los Huesos (Spanish for "Pit of Bones"), but for other mysterious populations in the Pleistocene epoch."Ancient DNA sequencing techniques have become sensitive enough to warrant further investigation of DNA survival at sites where Middle Pleistocene hominins are found," the research team, led by Matthias Meyer and Svante Pääbo of Germany's Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, wrote in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature. ("Hominin" is the currently accepted term for humans and our close evolutionary cousins.)As anthropologists are getting better at extracting DNA from ancient bones, genetic mysteries are cropping up more frequently: Last month, researchers at scientific meetings talked about not-yet-published findings that hinted at interbreeding among Neanderthals, Denisovans and previously unknown populations of early humans.A new standard

The age of the mitochondrial DNA analyzed for the Nature study sets a new standard: Researchers used statistical analysis of the DNA and other samples to estimate that the material was roughly 400,000 years old. That meshed with the estimated age for similar DNA extracted from bear bones found in the same cave.More than 6,000 human fossils, representing about 28 individuals, have been recovered from the Sima de los Huesos site, a hard-to-get-to cave chamber that lies about 100 feet (30 meters) below the surface in northern Spain. The fossils are unusually well-preserved, thanks in part to the undisturbed cave's constant cool temperature and high humidity.

For the complete article: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/400-000- ... 2D11690925


Quasar92

 

[Tom 1]

It has long been debated whether there exist a vast period between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. Opposing authors have eloquently presented their own views and also their skepticism of the opposition. Yet, neither side has presented their view with an eye on the eternal plan of God. Unless the opposing sides mutually agree on the purpose and plan of God, neither can reconcile nor modify their position. We at Charis Seminary have chosen the Gap theory because it is the only one that seems to address the plan of God as it is completely revealed in the Bible. Instead of maligning the Gap theory, the reason for a Gap must be settled, once and for all.

Opponents of the Gap say that it was first developed by Dr. George Chalmers of Edinburgh University in 1814 in an attempt to incorporate George Culvers concepts of geologic castasrophism into a biblical framework. It was finally popularized in the footnotes of the “Scofield Reference Bible”, in 1917. However it was Arthur Custance, Without Form and Void, who revealed that the Gap theory had been periodically referred to for centuries. It is this fact that demands that we take a serious look at the Gap. Christian teachers and authors have long alluded to an apparent Gap between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. Long before either George Culvers or Charles Darwin had presented their theories on the age of the earth and the evolution of the species, Christians were investigating a Gap in the creation account. So, the original investigation of the Gap had nothing to do with either the age of the earth or evolution. Unfortunately, no reason for the Gap could be found and therefore no real investigation was begun and completed.

The reason that no one could find a purpose for the Gap lay in the fact that until recently, the Plan of God and the true purpose for the Church were not understood. In our short exercise entitled “The Plan Of God” it was shown that Gods plan revolves around His desire to share His love with creation. This was not possible to an omniscient God who could see that eventually all creatures possessing freewill would make decisions outside of His will. Therefore a way had to be found to allow creation to make mistakes without suffering the terrible consequence of judgment from God’s immutable righteousness. Since it has always been Gods purpose to share His love with His creatures by entering into creation by means of mankind, one can only conclude that the omniscience of God found the entrance of sin a necessary component of His Plan. God’s essence dictated how the plan was to be accomplished, and He has recorded enough of His purpose in the Bible for the children of God through the illumination of the Spirit to understand His plan and purpose.

We therefore, have one more link in the chain of evidence supporting the contention that the view did not originate with Chalmers at all, but predated Chalmers as well as modern geologist by some 2500 years. It was not until 1814 or some 50 years later that Dr. Chalmers attempted to reconcile the Divine and geologic records in an Examination of Cuvier’s Theory of the Earth. Chalmers paper stated that the first act of creation was that of creating something from nothing, and that the first day’s work recorded in Genesis may have taken place after long periods of time. He further stated the earth may have had “a fair residence of life” but it had become desolate: and that although the sun, moon, and stars continued their existence in relationship to the earth, they had somehow become obscured. In itself, this was no new thought to the very learned theologian of the day, but it did begin a trend in certain Christian quarters which laid emphasis on what is now called the “Gap Theory”.

How Chalmers’ work became the premier document for proponents of the Gap, and how he became known as the one who popularized this theory is confusing; since at that time, the belief in an interval between Gen.1.1 and 1.2 was already well document. Even more confusing is why so many “Young Earth Theorist” refuse to acknowledge the real history of the Gap and persist to declare that it is of early origin. However, whether through ignorance and lack of scholarly research or purposely omitted in order to lend credence to an even more implausible theory of creation, Young Earth Theorist have perpetrated a great injustice to the truth and an even greater injustice to their readers. As we shall later see, only an interval can explain the complete purpose of God in creating man in order to bring into existence His true purpose … the creation of His Church. For now it can confidently be stated that the belief in an interval between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 is the foundational belief of the early Church and of Judaism. Science finally caught up with the truth that has always been in scripture, and even as archeology now proves the accuracy of Biblical history, geologic science proves the accuracy of the origins of this earth as presented in the Bible. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. The Church was the main opponent to the acceptance of the earth being round and revolving around the sun. I hope history will not record that we were also the main opponents to the scientific evidence as to the age of the earth.

What the true Bible scholar should be doing is determining why man was recently introduced into such an old universe. Since there shall never be a missing link found by science to continue any form of belief in evolution, the next step is for man to begin thinking he was placed here by some alien race. The universe is indeed old, yet man is a very recent addition to it, the question is why. The teleological proof of the existence of God demands that we recognize that the order in the universe also includes time. Since history is a component of time, even the history of the freewill of the creatures that live within time, as measured by the fixed units of measure that transpire within time (ie …. The rotation of the earth and the moon around the sun, etc.) is an effect who’s existence finds its source from a cause. God did not cause Angelic creation to fall. Yet, the fall of the perfect Angelic crea tion was a necessary part of His plan. Therefore, Angelic freewill became the cause of the fall as a part of God’s plan. Because of that fall, God caused man to be placed in time at what seems to be billions of years since time began. Man is therefore an effect with purpose and plan caused by God. Only the science of theology can explain mans recent entrance into Gods created universe. As we shall see, God has not left us blind. Yet, only with the recognition of a interval or Gap between Gen. 1.1 and 1.2, can a complete Biblical understanding be sought and eventually found as we look at what God has openly declared to us is the end of the entrance of man.

For much more go here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Origin...a/message/2461


Quasar92

To understand the creation account I think you have first understand how the people at the time it was written thought about it. John H Walton in particular has researched ANE thinking about this, but the relevant sections in Erich Auerbach’s Mimesis are useful too (I think) in getting your head around that. At the time of writing and for centuries afterwards contemporary thinking about creation was more along the lines of what is the order of things, who is in charge, what is the role of mankind and what is the role of animals, nature etc. whereas in the modern world we tend to think more ‘where did this stuff come from and how does it work’. Trying to reinterpret the ancient text in those terms is what leads to confusion.

 

[Quasar92]

There is nothing you have contributed in the above that diminish the clear evidence of a gap of time between Gen.1:1 amd 2. Check out the following to further support n old earth age. The link at the bottom has considerably more than what I am posting:

The oldest human DNA ever recovered is throwing scientists for a loop: The 400,000-year-old genetic material comes from bones that have been linked to Neanderthals in Spain — but its signature is most similar to that of a different ancient human population from Siberia, known as the Denisovans.The researchers who did the analysis said their findings show an "unexpected link" between two of our extinct cousin species.

Follow-up studies could crack the mystery — not only for the early humans who lived in the cave complex known as Sima de los Huesos (Spanish for "Pit of Bones"), but for other mysterious populations in the Pleistocene epoch."Ancient DNA sequencing techniques have become sensitive enough to warrant further investigation of DNA survival at sites where Middle Pleistocene hominins are found," the research team, led by Matthias Meyer and Svante Pääbo of Germany's Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, wrote in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature. ("Hominin" is the currently accepted term for humans and our close evolutionary cousins.)As anthropologists are getting better at extracting DNA from ancient bones, genetic mysteries are cropping up more frequently: Last month, researchers at scientific meetings talked about not-yet-published findings that hinted at interbreeding among Neanderthals, Denisovans and previously unknown populations of early humans.A new standard

The age of the mitochondrial DNA analyzed for the Nature study sets a new standard: Researchers used statistical analysis of the DNA and other samples to estimate that the material was roughly 400,000 years old. That meshed with the estimated age for similar DNA extracted from bear bones found in the same cave.More than 6,000 human fossils, representing about 28 individuals, have been recovered from the Sima de los Huesos site, a hard-to-get-to cave chamber that lies about 100 feet (30 meters) below the surface in northern Spain. The fossils are unusually well-preserved, thanks in part to the undisturbed cave's constant cool temperature and high humidity.

For the complete article: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/400-000- ... 2D11690925


Quasar92

More evidence for an old earth age:

GEOLOGY REVEALS: One Creation, One Restoration and Two Global Floods

[Or one creation; destruction and restoration for days 1-4 and new creation for days 5-6] Here is startling proof -- from the Bible and geology -- demonstrating not only two widely separated creations, but two world-wide destructions! Few have understood this astonishing truth! Now, it stands revealed for all to see!

Now for the first time, one of history's most fascinating stories can be told. The KEY to understanding the amazing history of the earth has been discovered. Contrary to what millions have been led to believe -- the true facts of science and the truth of your Bible agree! Theologians have long kept hidden this surprising truth. It conflicts with their theology. Atheistic professors have suppressed it. Science has refused to believe it. Only a few understand where the key which unlocks the amazing geologic history of the earth is. It has been in the FIRST TWO VERSES OF YOUR BIBLE all these years -- and you probably never noticed it.....

Proof of Pre-Adamic Flood

Notice the true facts of geology. The pre-Adamic catastrophe involved water. Laid down first by the swirling waters were the smaller sea creatures. They appear in the deepest sedimentary layers. The larger creatures of the land, by comparison, were able to flee to the higher hills. They were not drowned until the rising floodwaters spread over, then covered, the entire earth. Evolutionary geologists have discerned proof of this pre-Adamic flood. They know that rising floodwaters first swept up the ocean-bottom dwellers, the trilobites and the brachiopods, and other shell creatures of the sea. These ocean-bottom dwellers were scattered over wide areas. Later other sedimentary rocks with land life were laid down on top of them. That is exactly why fossils of sea creatures, such as the trilobite, SUDDENLY APPEAR as fossils in the DEEPEST sedimentary rocks.

Not knowing the Bible reveals a pre-Adamic catastrophe destroyed all life, an amazed evolutionary geologist exclaimed, "... the SUDDEN APPEARANCE of ABUNDANT FOSSILS in the Cambrian {lowest rocks in which life is found} is remarkable" (Dunbar, "Historical Geology", p. 125). {Emphasis ours in entire article.}
Why were these evolutionary geologists astounded to discover that complex fossils appear suddenly in the deepest sedimentary rocks?

The theory of evolution has led the geologists to assume the older and deeper rocks were laid down over many millions of years. They assumed that in the deepest rocks they would find very simple fossil remains of evolving forms. Obviously, because of the theory of evolution they expected to find simple fossil forms that clearly showed the steps of evolution taking place. Because evolution has never taken place, they failed to find simple pre-trilobite forms!
As the well-known evolutionary geologist Stokes said, "... we do not understand why fossils of marine invertebrates (without backbones) suddenly became plentiful ..." (Stokes, "Essentials of Earth History", p. 186)

By L. E. Torrance.

[Edit by Quasar: Scriptural facts supporting the above: Gen.1:2; 7:20; 8:3-5; Psalms 24:2; 2 Pet.3:5-6 and Proverbs 8:24].

"But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed." 2 Pet.3:5-6 NIV.



Quasar92

 

[2tim_215]

|<---Gap (if you wish to call it that?)----->|
-~----------------------------6000-10000 BC-------------------------->present
Eternity Past Prior creations? Man's Creation (6 days)

With the earth age being old (according to most scientists) and many of the fossils which have been found I think that it's certainly quite feasible that there were previous creations prior to man being created ~6000 BC. After all, we don't think that God was just sitting around twiddling His fingers during eternity past. Regardless, I think that what's important to us is man's creation, and that is what the Bible is based on which gives us all the information we need in order to make it through this life. Anything beyond that, is not really relevant to what's necessary other than from a curiosity standpoint. When you look at the verses in Genesis, it doesn't contradict them, as it really doesn't give any timelines although it could be considered chronological in order.

 

[DavidPT]

There is nothing you have contributed in the above that diminish the clear evidence of a gap of time between Gen.1:1 amd 2. Check out the following to further support n old earth age. The link at the bottom has considerably more than what I am posting:

The oldest human DNA ever recovered is throwing scientists for a loop: The 400,000-year-old genetic material comes from bones that have been linked to Neanderthals in Spain — but its signature is most similar to that of a different ancient human population from Siberia, known as the Denisovans.The researchers who did the analysis said their findings show an "unexpected link" between two of our extinct cousin species.

Follow-up studies could crack the mystery — not only for the early humans who lived in the cave complex known as Sima de los Huesos (Spanish for "Pit of Bones"), but for other mysterious populations in the Pleistocene epoch."Ancient DNA sequencing techniques have become sensitive enough to warrant further investigation of DNA survival at sites where Middle Pleistocene hominins are found," the research team, led by Matthias Meyer and Svante Pääbo of Germany's Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, wrote in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature. ("Hominin" is the currently accepted term for humans and our close evolutionary cousins.)As anthropologists are getting better at extracting DNA from ancient bones, genetic mysteries are cropping up more frequently: Last month, researchers at scientific meetings talked about not-yet-published findings that hinted at interbreeding among Neanderthals, Denisovans and previously unknown populations of early humans.A new standard

The age of the mitochondrial DNA analyzed for the Nature study sets a new standard: Researchers used statistical analysis of the DNA and other samples to estimate that the material was roughly 400,000 years old. That meshed with the estimated age for similar DNA extracted from bear bones found in the same cave.More than 6,000 human fossils, representing about 28 individuals, have been recovered from the Sima de los Huesos site, a hard-to-get-to cave chamber that lies about 100 feet (30 meters) below the surface in northern Spain. The fossils are unusually well-preserved, thanks in part to the undisturbed cave's constant cool temperature and high humidity.

For the complete article: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/400-000- ... 2D11690925


Quasar92

Here's a better idea IMO. First prove with the Bible that there is indeed a gap where you are claiming. Until you can first do that, the theories of scientists are meaningless. Maybe their theories are correct, maybe they are not. One way to determine that is by first proving with Scriptures that there is a gap where you are proposing.

I'm assuming God initially populated the earth with full grown trees, rather than they all springing up from seeds until they all grew to an adult size. With that in mind, suppose God were to transport modern day scientists back to the day after He had populated the earth with full grown trees, except these scientists were not aware this was during the 6 days of creation. Now suppose God tells them to calculate the age of some of these trees. What do you think their findings would be? Would they be able to determine that these trees were only one day old though fully grown? Or would they maybe think the trees were much older because they were already fully grown?

 

[Quasar92]

Here's a better idea IMO. First prove with the Bible that there is indeed a gap where you are claiming. Until you can first do that, the theories of scientists are meaningless. Maybe their theories are correct, maybe they are not. One way to determine that is by first proving with Scriptures that there is a gap where you are proposing.

I'm assuming God initially populated the earth with full grown trees, rather than they all springing up from seeds until they all grew to an adult size. With that in mind, suppose God were to transport modern day scientists back to the day after He had populated the earth with full grown trees, except these scientists were not aware this was during the 6 days of creation. Now suppose God tells them to calculate the age of some of these trees. What do you think their findings would be? Would they be able to determine that these trees were only one day old though fully grown? Or would they maybe think the trees were much older because they were already fully grown?

Review my edit in pot @34. You do not require the Bible to prove issues he Bible was never intended to reveal.


Quasar92