Everywhere I go, hostility toward Christianity.

Eudaimonist

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Subordinationist said:
I have yet to go to a forum where there isn't at least one anti-Christian ranting and raving about the "myths" of the Bible, the religion of Creationism, the "hatreds and bigotry" of Biblical doctrines, or the over-blowing of past historical "Christian" evils.

Yes? So? Just about every group on Earth gets bashed. I personally haven't seen a forum about ideas yet that didn't have at least one person bash Ayn Rand or Objectivism. Join the club.
 
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Phred

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Subordinationist said:
I rest my case. Just wait a decade or two; we'll see about this "Christian" America.

If you sit back you'll see how you're being used. Somehow, while sitting in the middle of the largest, safest Christian bed in the world you're convinced you're in danger! Like one of Pavlov's dogs, many will react on command. Ring the "Family values" bell for example. Doesn't mean anything really... what values does a Christian family hold that an atheist one does not? Do you really think that an atheist family sits down each night to watch porn and eat live babies? But, ring that bell and Christians seem to feel they should join together against whatever is "against" them.

No... this "persecution" thing is a ruse. It's another way of creating "us" and "them". If you're wondering why some people are suspicious of Christianity these days... look around. Mention "Christian" and people don't see Father Flannigan anymore. They see Jerry Falwell. Christian isn't about a white church on the corner where we gather to join and say farewell... it's about Creflo Dollar and Crystal Palaces. Yet, most Christians still go to that same white church. Ask yourself, does the marketing of Christianity reflect your faith?

I'm saddened when I see true Christian values of compassion and honesty being destroyed by paranoia. But... it's your choice. Join Jerry and the gang as they separate us. Or, maybe you could stand up like Jesus did for what is right, not what is popular.




.​
 
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SuperMama

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Both here and in a new thread.

Wake up America - Wake up Christians of America!

The push for HATE SPEECH legislation is moving around the western world. In Sweden last year a Pastor was jailed under their new law. While we squabble among ourselves as to whether or not homosexuality is a sin - the Hate Speech which is being applied to Christians who say that it is a sin will be stretched to encompass such things that Christians mostly agree on and it will be TOO LATE.

Pastors will not be able to speak against FORNICATION, ADULTERY, PROSTITUTION and many other issues that will be seen as being hatefull to people who wish to have these lifestyles. No one will be able to say HELL in a sermon. Think about that for a moment!

It's called the thin end of the wedge. The Churches that wish to comply with law will be forced to preech NOTHING but God loves everyone and tolerence. This may be fine with some of our weaker Churches but most will want to stand up for more than this.

Persecution will come SUBORDINATIONIST is very right. Mark these words and remember them. At the momnt you argue that Christians bring this on themselves saying Homosexuality is wrong - But this is merely the beginning.

The upside is that when the true believers are forced to meet in secret, and move underground - the rates of people converting to the faith will skyrocket. Persecution has NEVER destroyed Christians, it usually makes them stronger.

But for goodness sakes dont live in laa laa land. Open your eyes. The new insidious P.C. epidemic will attempt to curtail the preaching of Gods word.

In my country just a matter of weeks ago our government voted to legalise a form of gay marriage. They have called it 'civil unions' and allow same sex couples to register their partnership and affords them the same recognition under law that a married couple have. The gay lobby were pushing at the same time for the introduction of HATE SPEECH legislation. Our Prime Minister is heavily rumoured to be Gay, She shuns all Christian aspects which extended to forbidding a meal time prayer (Grace) at a dinner at which New Zealand hosted the Queen of England. The Queen is the head of the Anglican Church and was offended. It would have been like inviting the Pope to dinner and telling him, and dont you dare give thanks for your food to God. Our parliament has a member that was born a man and had a sex change operation called Georgina Byers. Two openly gay men and a raft of gay support. Anti Christianity extends beyond the gay issue - it will stop more and more or your religious expression.


______________________________​
Faith and Action last night hosted two Christian leaders from Sweden at its ministry center across the street from the US Supreme Court, who warned that America could soon experience the same religious persecution that their country is undergoing. Member of Parliament Mikael Oscarsson and pro-life spokesman Johan Lundell traveled to the United States to advocate for Swedish pastor Ake Green who has been sentenced to prison under their nation’s hate crimes law for preaching a sermon against homosexual behavior.

“When our hate crimes bill was being debated, we were promised that this would never happen,” Mr. Oscarsson told twenty invited guests at a dinner in the Ostrowski House, Faith and Action’s headquarters on Capitol Hill. “Pastors would be safe, they said. Then just six months after the law was put into place, this happened.”

The 68 year old Pastor Green had quoted Bible verses and carefully expounded on their meaning in a July 20, 2003 message to his congregation in Borgholm, Sweden. Prosecutors charged that the Pastor’s sermon constituted “persecution of a people group.” On June 29 of this year, Pastor Green was found guilty by a federal district court. Prosecutors asked for the maximum of two years in prison, but the court determined a “reduced prison term” of thirty days.

“We are here to warn you that this can happen in your country,” said Mr. Lundell, who with Mr. Oscarsson, are two of only a few Christian voices to support Pastor Green and denounce the abusive law used against him. The executive director of Ja Till Livet (Yes to Life), the largest pro-life organization in Scandinavia, reported that only two church groups in the country, the Fundamentalists and the Roman Catholics, have spoken out in support of Pastor Green and against the Swedish hates crimes legislation. “Most pastors are afraid,” said Mr. Lundell.
 
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Arikay

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I agree with Phred.
Mmmmm, Live babies.

Super: I think it will be very hard for hate speech laws to be passed in the US because of the first amendment.

For those who think christians are persecuted more so than others, I might suggest a test, start telling people you have become a witch, or an atheist, and see how you are treated.
I don't doubt that christians are persecuted, but they don't hold a monopoly on persecution by a long shot.
 
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SuperMama

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Arikay - I don't know much about your amendments, other than Americans hold them as very important and that they cant be changed. So I hope you are right.


I don't think the vatican, who are pushing to have Christainophobia recognised are claiming they have a monopoly on being persecuted. I am not sure the Catholic Church could not go that far with their past history. But they do want people to see that Christians are indeed attacked and targetted by groups with a opposing agendas. It is also very current, and popular in this P.C world.
 
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Shy21

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SuperMama said:
Both here and in a new thread.

Wake up America - Wake up Christians of America!

The push for HATE SPEECH legislation is moving around the western world. In Sweden last year a Pastor was jailed under their new law. While we squabble among ourselves as to whether or not homosexuality is a sin - the Hate Speech which is being applied to Christians who say that it is a sin will be stretched to encompass such things that Christians mostly agree on and it will be TOO LATE.

Pastors will not be able to speak against FORNICATION, ADULTERY, PROSTITUTION and many other issues that will be seen as being hatefull to people who wish to have these lifestyles. No one will be able to say HELL in a sermon. Think about that for a moment!

It's called the thin end of the wedge. The Churches that wish to comply with law will be forced to preech NOTHING but God loves everyone and tolerence. This may be fine with some of our weaker Churches but most will want to stand up for more than this.

Persecution will come SUBORDINATIONIST is very right. Mark these words and remember them. At the momnt you argue that Christians bring this on themselves saying Homosexuality is wrong - But this is merely the beginning.

The upside is that when the true believers are forced to meet in secret, and move underground - the rates of people converting to the faith will skyrocket. Persecution has NEVER destroyed Christians, it usually makes them stronger.

But for goodness sakes dont live in laa laa land. Open your eyes. The new insidious P.C. epidemic will attempt to curtail the preaching of Gods word.

In my country just a matter of weeks ago our government voted to legalise a form of gay marriage. They have called it 'civil unions' and allow same sex couples to register their partnership and affords them the same recognition under law that a married couple have. The gay lobby were pushing at the same time for the introduction of HATE SPEECH legislation. Our Prime Minister is heavily rumoured to be Gay, She shuns all Christian aspects which extended to forbidding a meal time prayer (Grace) at a dinner at which New Zealand hosted the Queen of England. The Queen is the head of the Anglican Church and was offended. It would have been like inviting the Pope to dinner and telling him, and dont you dare give thanks for your food to God. Our parliament has a member that was born a man and had a sex change operation called Georgina Byers. Two openly gay men and a raft of gay support. Anti Christianity extends beyond the gay issue - it will stop more and more or your religious expression.


______________________________​


Faith and Action last night hosted two Christian leaders from Sweden at its ministry center across the street from the US Supreme Court, who warned that America could soon experience the same religious persecution that their country is undergoing. Member of Parliament Mikael Oscarsson and pro-life spokesman Johan Lundell traveled to the United States to advocate for Swedish pastor Ake Green who has been sentenced to prison under their nation’s hate crimes law for preaching a sermon against homosexual behavior.

“When our hate crimes bill was being debated, we were promised that this would never happen,” Mr. Oscarsson told twenty invited guests at a dinner in the Ostrowski House, Faith and Action’s headquarters on Capitol Hill. “Pastors would be safe, they said. Then just six months after the law was put into place, this happened.”

The 68 year old Pastor Green had quoted Bible verses and carefully expounded on their meaning in a July 20, 2003 message to his congregation in Borgholm, Sweden. Prosecutors charged that the Pastor’s sermon constituted “persecution of a people group.” On June 29 of this year, Pastor Green was found guilty by a federal district court. Prosecutors asked for the maximum of two years in prison, but the court determined a “reduced prison term” of thirty days.

“We are here to warn you that this can happen in your country,” said Mr. Lundell, who with Mr. Oscarsson, are two of only a few Christian voices to support Pastor Green and denounce the abusive law used against him. The executive director of Ja Till Livet (Yes to Life), the largest pro-life organization in Scandinavia, reported that only two church groups in the country, the Fundamentalists and the Roman Catholics, have spoken out in support of Pastor Green and against the Swedish hates crimes legislation. “Most pastors are afraid,” said Mr. Lundell.

The only thing church should talk about is G-d. They should worry about WORSHIPPING and DOING G-d's Will instead of worrying about other people business. What gay people do is their business not the churchs. That's whats wrong with Christianity now...they worry too much about others when G-d or Christ is the person they should be worshipping and worrying about.

I don't want to agree with the hate speech act, but when I think of how hateful Christianity has been to other religious groups by saying "you are going to hell" and when I see that all preachers preach about is FORNICATION, ADULTERY, PROSTITUTION I am all for the act because the same people that preach about that stuff is the same people that are doing it on the "down low". Worry about G-d and FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on DOING G-d's Will and not try to put DOWN others.

Christianity isnt for the hate speech act because then they can't talk bad about others and condemn people to hell. They have to be nice Christians. Isnt that correct?????
 
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morningstar2651

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Pastors will not be able to speak against FORNICATION, ADULTERY, PROSTITUTION and many other issues that will be seen as being hatefull to people who wish to have these lifestyles. No one will be able to say HELL in a sermon. Think about that for a moment!
Slippery Slope fallacy.

Do you have the slightest inkling of how dangerous it is for me to utter the words witchcraft, pentagram, ritual, or coven in public? I live in a town where you get threatening looks from neighbors and passerbyes if you mow your lawn on a Sunday.

If what you spread were God's Love, then it wouldn't be called Hate speech.

You believe that Jesus died for your sins but you condemn others to Hell for their own...take a step back and look at your own hypocrisy before condemning other people to Hell.

"The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists - that is why they invented Hell." -- Bertrand Russell

On a sidenote: I've never needed a book to tell me to be straight. I was born that way.

Quit trying to save the world, it's not your job.
 
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Subordinationist

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Arikay

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Lets take a look at one of your links and see what's going on.

http://www.worthynews.com/christian-persecution.html in blue.
I found many problems with the article, but since we are talking about specific persecutions lets just stick to that.

"Recently, a woman in Houston, Texas was ordered by local police to stop handing out gospel tracts to children who knocked on her door during Halloween. Officers informed her that such activity is illegal (not true), and that she would be arrested if she continued."

I disagree with what the police did, but shouldn't we also consider when it is appropriate to spread the gospel? I can see how this is persecution. We don't know what kind of tracts she was handing out, if they were inappropriate for children, then I can see why the police might step in. Would you want people handing out pornography on halloween? Some people might not want certain types of inappropriate information given to their children.


"In Madison, Wisconsin, the Freedom from Religion Foundation distributes anti-Christian pamphlets to public school children entitled, "We Can Be Good Without God.""

I disagree with the handing out of anti-christian pamphlets.
This seems a bit hypocritical as the last persecution was for preventing someone from handing out religious pamphlets. Are they suggesting that it is ok for christians to hand out tracts (that can be anti other religion) but not ok for other religions to do the same?


"The entertainment industry and syndicated media increasingly vilify Christians as sewer rats, vultures, and simple-minded social ingrates."

And "Passion of the Christ" was such a big grossing movie because?
Of course, as we find out, this was written a bit before passion. But I would expect that by leveling such a claim against hollywood they could at least give a citation of a few movies that do what they claim and provide statistics that christianity is vilified more than any other religion.


"The FBI and the Clinton White House brand fundamentalist Christian groups as hate mongers and potential terrorists."

Clinton white house? This is a rather old article I am guessing. Which fundamentalist groups are being labeled this? Groups that support people who have murdered in God's name. What about groups that celebrate the death of gays? After 9/11 many people were ready to throw all muslims into concentration camps, and recent studies show that a large portion of america (although not a majority) supports the idea that muslims should have less rights than other americans and some even though they should be put in camps.

"The Council of Religious Leaders of Metropolitan Chicago warns that plans by Southern Baptists to hold a convention in the Windy City next year might foment "hate crimes" against minorities, causing some Christians to fear that speaking openly about their religious beliefs will soon be considered a crime. "

Would groups such as Fred Phelps' ministry be joining that convention?


" We remember the students at Columbine,"

But do we remember the important parts of that event? Do we remember that the kids felt that it was actually retaliation against the persecution christians at school had subjected them too? What they did was wrong, but we must remember why they did it, they felt that it was the only way they could get back at those that persecuted them.
Do we also remember the "Good christian" parents who invented the most famous story of the shooting, The test of faith in the library story (where their daughter was supposably asked if she believed in God, and shot when she said Yes). Do we remember them getting rich by selling the invented story of their daughters death?


"and the United Methodist minister who was fatally beaten and burned in a remote part of Chattanooga, Tennessee, to name a few of the recent examples of interpersonal violence aimed at believers."

So far I can not find that his death was related to being a minister. It appears he was in the wrong place at the wrong time (If you have any information it would be nice.).


So far it doesn't really seem like a lot of persecution. Combine that with the fact that christian fundamentalists have gained ground since it was written and I don't see much to complain about.
To repeat myself, yes christians are persecuted and Yes it is wrong, but take my challenge, tell people you are a witch or an atheist and see how you are treated, learn about how pagans and atheists are treated by christians. Christians do not hold a majority when it comes to being persecuted.
On a side note, I find it interesting that many polls on religious demographics in the US believe that the number of pagans is greatly under reported because of fears people have of saying they are pagan in the US.




Subordinationist said:
 
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MarkT

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For those who think christians are persecuted more so than others, I might suggest a test, start telling people you have become a witch, or an atheist, and see how you are treated.
I don't doubt that christians are persecuted, but they don't hold a monopoly on persecution by a long shot.


Isn't that considered cool these days?



SuperMama

Thanks for the information. I was expecting something like that but I didn't know it was already going on.

I wonder when the lawless one will make his appearance.

These are stressful times but don't worry. :thumbsup:
 
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morningstar2651

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MarkT said:
Isn't that considered cool these days?
Only by fluffy bunnies, but they thrive off of the persecution...it makes them feel special.

Have you ever been harassed because you're Christian? To the point the police had to get involved?

Has your personal property been vandalized because you're Christian?

If the answer to these questions is yes, then you've suffered persecution. Welcome to the club!
 
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morningstar2651 said:
Only by fluffy bunnies, but they thrive off of the persecution...it makes them feel special.

Have you ever been harassed because you're Christian? To the point the police had to get involved?

Has your personal property been vandalized because you're Christian?

If the answer to these questions is yes, then you've suffered persecution. Welcome to the club!
Agreed
 
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SuperMama

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Only by fluffy bunnies, but they thrive off of the persecution...it makes them feel special.

Have you ever been harassed because you're Christian? To the point the police had to get involved?

Has your personal property been vandalized because you're Christian?

If the answer to these questions is yes, then you've suffered persecution. Welcome to the club!


No this is just arguing degrees. There are plenty of minority groups that suffer continual low level harrassment and cajoing, and torment, and ridicule and mockery that does not get to the point of police calls, or vandalised property. But they are undoubtedly persecuted. I think of incidious school bullies as an example who target someone and never cross the line to the extent where they can be caught or expelled - yet make someones life a living misery.

Persecution does not have to include violence, death and destruction to be all emcompassing powerfull and dehibiltating.
 
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MJ421

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Two openly gay men and a raft of gay support. Anti Christianity extends beyond the gay issue - it will stop more and more or your religious expression.

Christianity has brought it up themselves. You typically find that when a minority group that you have persecuted and discriminated against for centuries get into power, they will remember your hatred.

There is Christian persecution. In some 3rd world countries, it's suicide to convert to Christianity. But in America, that is not the case. The cases of Christian persecution in America are minimal. When you have a 70% majority, it's hard to be persecuted.
 
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Lifesaver

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Ben Borg Again said:
Besides how many years did Christianity rule the world? Did they make the world a better place? Then why call it the Dark Ages?
If Secular Society never got a foot hold during the Age of Enlightenment a mere 3 or 400 years ago, we may still be in the Dark Ages burning witches and watching half of our children die before adulthood....
First, the period correctly identified as dark ages go from the 6th to the 10th century, more or less. And even during it there were periods of great cultural production (the "Carolingian Renaissance", for instance). Still, it was a time filled with migrations, conversions and wars, and thus society did not progress much.

But once it was settled down, then Western society (which is fundamentally Christian) truly began. From the end of the first millenium up to the 1300s, Europe experience a period of cultural flourishing and greatness. The universities, scholasticism, great literature, Gothic architecture, technologic innovation, etc. Reason and faith truly took their rightful places as the guides of mankind.

Plus, I think you'd be interested to know that, throughout all the centuries it existed, the Inquisition was responsible for less deaths than the French Revolution. The contemporary age of tolerance and equality has killed a lot more than the entire Middle Ages; and yet, people still see Robespierre, Lenin and Che Guevara as heros.
They applaud the works of people such as Voltaire, Rousseau and Marx, all of them responsible for the most terrible crimes to have ever happened in the history of the West.

And look how incoherent people are today: all of them swear the Middle Ages were a time of opression and stupidity; and yet, they all flock to Paris to be amazed at the Nôtre Dame, and dream of their romantic fantasies of living in that age.
 
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Phred

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Subordinationist said:
And you think that the West will remain Fundamentalist Christian? Think again. Wanna know what America will look like in a decade? Look at Western Europe.

I certainly hope not. Fundamentalism in any form is what I consider to be the danger. What's the difference between a Christian fundie who shoots a doctor at his dinner table and a Muslim fundie driving a car full of explosives into roadblock?

There is none. None at all. They're both murderers perverting religion to justify hatred. They have an interest in keeping everyone thinking of US vs. THEM. Separate people instead of joining them. Focus on differences instead of the things we have in common. The irresponsible and reckless contention you made that Christians will end up in camps is such a thing. You scare people and try to rule them by fear.

Fear... in the name of God when did fear begin to represent Christianity??? You're supposed to stand up and look evil in the eye then offer it the OTHER CHEEK!




.​
 
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