Everyone goes to hell, right?

dcalling · Jul 29, 2014

workmx said:
Okay. So we return to the question of heaven and hell

Are those who are not more righteous than scribes and don't keep the 613 commandments going to hell?

Or are you making the case for third state?

Like purgatory?

You want the primary source, but I don't think God said anything about purgatory, so that is out. I don't think God mentioned a lot about hell either, so I don't know what is hell (it might be you either go to heaven or disappear, i.e. die).

As for who go to heaven, I am not sure, according to Jesus, heaven contains people who are like children, and it is vary hard to get into.

The whole bible doesn't contain the word purgatory, and I am not an expert on life and death (no one is except God), so why even ask such a question?

workmx · Jul 30, 2014

dcalling said:
You want the primary source, but I don't think God said anything about purgatory, so that is out. I don't think God mentioned a lot about hell either, so I don't know what is hell (it might be you either go to heaven or disappear, i.e. die).

As for who go to heaven, I am not sure, according to Jesus, heaven contains people who are like children, and it is vary hard to get into.

The whole bible doesn't contain the word purgatory, and I am not an expert on life and death (no one is except God), so why even ask such a question?

So, what does jesus mean when in Mathhew 5:21-22 he talks about being "in danger of the judgment"?

workmx · Jul 30, 2014

Later in Matthew Jesus says:

Matthew 13:42 said:
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Angelquill · Jul 30, 2014

Here is a sort of a different slant on "The Lake of Fire", from Revelation:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Evidently, the lake of fire is not hell, since hell is thrown into it along with everyone not found in the book of life. What the lake of fire is, is named here.
It is "the second death".

Just a bit of food for thought....

Usus Vox Tractus · Jul 30, 2014

Here's a look at some original meaning :Lake of Life - Pruning

A further way of explaining Jesus statement about eternal punishment is by observing the derivation of kolasis. Bruce calls attention to the root of kolasis which is κολάζω (kolazō, mutilate, prune) and concludes that the noun refers to a corrective type of punishment rather than a vindictive one. He notes the possibility of combining that notion with αἰώνιον (aiōnion) which etymologically means agelong, not everlasting. The idea of agelong pruning or discipline leaves open the hope of ultimate salvation. To his credit, however, he notes that the doctrine of future states must rest on more basic considerations than those of etymological derivation. In the present context, the contrast with eternal life establishes that eternal punishment is not a limited period of discipline, but is without limits.

The incompatibility of love and fear is also evident from the fact that fear is associated with κόλασις. The original Greek understanding of this word is not so much related to punishment as to discipline or physical training. In Hellenism it takes on the meaning of punishment and later becomes a technical term for the eternal punishment that will be imposed at the final judgment..
Georg Strecker and Harold W. Attridge, The Johannine Letters : A Commentary on 1, 2, and 3 John, Hermeneia--a critical and historical commentary on the Bible, 167 (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1996).

Angelquill · Jul 30, 2014

Usus Vox Tractus said:
Here's a look at some original meaning :Lake of Life - Pruning

A further way of explaining Jesus statement about eternal punishment is by observing the derivation of kolasis. Bruce calls attention to the root of kolasis which is κολάζω (kolazō, mutilate, prune) and concludes that the noun refers to a corrective type of punishment rather than a vindictive one. He notes the possibility of combining that notion with αἰώνιον (aiōnion) which etymologically means agelong, not everlasting. The idea of agelong pruning or discipline leaves open the hope of ultimate salvation. To his credit, however, he notes that the doctrine of future states must rest on more basic considerations than those of etymological derivation. In the present context, the contrast with eternal life establishes that eternal punishment is not a limited period of discipline, but is without limits.

The incompatibility of love and fear is also evident from the fact that fear is associated with κόλασις. The original Greek understanding of this word is not so much related to punishment as to discipline or physical training. In Hellenism it takes on the meaning of punishment and later becomes a technical term for the eternal punishment that will be imposed at the final judgment..
Georg Strecker and Harold W. Attridge, The Johannine Letters : A Commentary on 1, 2, and 3 John, Hermeneia--a critical and historical commentary on the Bible, 167 (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1996).[/quote

"pruning"...that means to cut away.
What happens to the branches that are "pruned"???

KISS...
Keep It Simple, Sweetheart...

Usus Vox Tractus · Jul 30, 2014

Angelquill said:
Usus Vox Tractus said:

Here's a look at some original meaning :Lake of Life - Pruning

A further way of explaining Jesus statement about eternal punishment is by observing the derivation of kolasis. Bruce calls attention to the root of kolasis which is κολάζω (kolazō, mutilate, prune) and concludes that the noun refers to a corrective type of punishment rather than a vindictive one. He notes the possibility of combining that notion with αἰώνιον (aiōnion) which etymologically means agelong, not everlasting. The idea of agelong pruning or discipline leaves open the hope of ultimate salvation. To his credit, however, he notes that the doctrine of future states must rest on more basic considerations than those of etymological derivation. In the present context, the contrast with eternal life establishes that eternal punishment is not a limited period of discipline, but is without limits.

The incompatibility of love and fear is also evident from the fact that fear is associated with κόλασις. The original Greek understanding of this word is not so much related to punishment as to discipline or physical training. In Hellenism it takes on the meaning of punishment and later becomes a technical term for the eternal punishment that will be imposed at the final judgment..
Georg Strecker and Harold W. Attridge, The Johannine Letters : A Commentary on 1, 2, and 3 John, Hermeneia--a critical and historical commentary on the Bible, 167 (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1996).[/quote

"pruning"...that means to cut away.
What happens to the branches that are "pruned"???

KISS...
Keep It Simple, Sweetheart...

Click to expand...

Well in my experience they are either chipped into compost or put on the burn pile.

Angelquill · Jul 30, 2014

Usus Vox Tractus said:
Angelquill said:

Well in my experience they are either chipped into compost or put on the burn pile.

Click to expand...

Exactly.
I think we're on the same page, here...

And the lake of fire, so often used as a terrible example of "hellfire" turns out to actually be God's "burnpile".

Just a bit of food for thought...

Usus Vox Tractus · Jul 30, 2014

Angelquill said:
Usus Vox Tractus said:

Exactly.
I think we're on the same page, here...

And the lake of fire, so often used as a terrible example of "hellfire" turns out to actually be God's "burnpile".

Just a bit of food for thought...

Click to expand...

And then you have God described as an all consuming fire and King David asking where can he flee from God's Spirit? If he rose to Heaven, there is God, if he makes his bed in sheol behold God is there.

workmx · Jul 30, 2014

Angelquill said:
Usus Vox Tractus said:

Exactly.
I think we're on the same page, here...

And the lake of fire, so often used as a terrible example of "hellfire" turns out to actually be God's "burnpile".

Just a bit of food for thought...

Click to expand...

We know that jesus was not a fan of dry sticks:

John 15:6 said:

If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Click to expand...

dcalling · Jul 30, 2014

workmx said:
So, what does jesus mean when in Mathhew 5:21-22 he talks about being "in danger of the judgment"?

Judgement is not equal to hell. There is no hell mentioned anywhere in the text. You seems to be very interested in hell

Here is the full test:
1 You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment. 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[b][c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, Raca,[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, You fool! will be in danger of the fire of hell.

workmx · Jul 30, 2014

dcalling said:
Judgement is not equal to hell. There is no hell mentioned anywhere in the text. You seems to be very interested in hell

Here is the full test:
1 You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment. 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[b][c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, Raca,[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, You fool! will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Jesus does mention hell in Matthew 5:22 and then again at 5:29 and 5:30.

Although I believe that the original word used in those passages is "gehenna", so that confuses me too.

dcalling · Jul 31, 2014

workmx said:
Jesus does mention hell in Matthew 5:22 and then again at 5:29 and 5:30.

Although I believe that the original word used in those passages is "gehenna", so that confuses me too.

so checked 5:22 only, here is the quote:
"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

You are right it did mention. But in no detail. And it only said in danger, so not a sure thing.

But I don't think anywhere in bible hell is described in detail.

workmx · Jul 31, 2014

dcalling said:
so checked 5:22 only, here is the quote:
"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

You are right it did mention. But in no detail. And it only said in danger, so not a sure thing.

But I don't think anywhere in bible hell is described in detail.

Except in:

Joshua 15:8
Nehemiah 11:30
Chronicles 28:3
Matthew 5:22
Luke 16:24
Matthew 13:42
Matthew 25:41
Revelation 20:15

So, hell does not exist? Is that what you are saying?

If hell doesn't exist, then the bible is not correct on this point.

If it does exist, then the god is not loving.

Right? I am very confused by all this.

dcalling · Jul 31, 2014

workmx said:
Except in:

Joshua 15:8

Nehemiah 11:30

Chronicles 28:3

Matthew 5:22

Luke 16:24

Matthew 13:42

Matthew 25:41

Revelation 20:15

So, hell does not exist? Is that what you are saying?

If hell doesn't exist, then the bible is not correct on this point.

If it does exist, then the god is not loving.

Right? I am very confused by all this.

I checked first one, no mention of hell
"And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward"

I didn't say hell didn't exist, I said there is not much details from the Bible about hell (either you have problem understanding me or you are trying to put word in my mouse )

And even if hell exists does not mean God is not loving. God has rules, don't kill, don't covet, love your neighbors. God is loving enough to let repented sinners go to heaven, and punish the bad ones. Spoil != Love.

workmx · Jul 31, 2014

dcalling said:
I checked first one, no mention of hell
"And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward"

I didn't say hell didn't exist, I said there is not much details from the Bible about hell (either you have problem understanding me or you are trying to put word in my mouse )

And even if hell exists does not mean God is not loving. God has rules, don't kill, don't covet, love your neighbors. God is loving enough to let repented sinners go to heaven, and punish the bad ones. Spoil != Love.

Sorry I should have been clear: those passages all mention gehenna which (in some versions of the bible) is translated as "hell".

If hell is real, it does mean god is not loving (a truly loving being would not mandate an infinite punishment for a finite crime).

In fact, I would go so far as to say that if hell does exist, god is fundementally immoral.

Emmy · Aug 1, 2014

Dear workmx. May I just point out, with love naturally, In Matthew 22: verse 37:
the Expositor`s New Testament, tells us: "This is the foundation of all the Law
and as well, applies to the present Day of Grace." Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. The second is like it: Love our neighbour as we love ourselves." Jesus also tells us: "On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God wants our Love, freely given and No Conditions Tagged On. Love will never send us to Hell, and Love is what Jesus died for,
Jesus died that we might live. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Joshua260 · Aug 1, 2014

workmx said:
If hell is real, it does mean god is not loving (a truly loving being would not mandate an infinite punishment for a finite crime).

Your conclusion here does not necessarily follow from your premise.

Whether or not one goes to hell is based on whether or not one has rejected God.

Using your understanding, would it be fair for God to reward you infinitely in heaven for one single finite good deed?

Another good reason to study Ezekiel 18!

dcalling · Aug 1, 2014

workmx said:
Sorry I should have been clear: those passages all mention gehenna which (in some versions of the bible) is translated as "hell".

If hell is real, it does mean god is not loving (a truly loving being would not mandate an infinite punishment for a finite crime).

In fact, I would go so far as to say that if hell does exist, god is fundementally immoral.

your logic is seriously flawed. But I will leave that to you.

aiki · Aug 2, 2014

You were accusing me of confirmation bias.

I was doing the same.

So, I guess the questions are rhethorical, no?

Mine were not rhetorical.

So, you god is a dictator?

Can the Creator of the universe do as He likes in His own universe? Of course! Is He a dictator of the human sort? Of course not. No human dictator has the right to act unilaterally as the Creator of the universe does. God did not consult us before making everything and He doesn't consult us about its continued existence, either.

But god created the sin and then jesus takes it away?

And they are actually the same person?

No, God did not create sin. He gave us the capacity to freely choose to obey Him or not, to love Him or not, and when humans choose to live without God, to despise and disobey Him, they sin.

Jesus came to save us from the consequences of our sin. We all sin; we all need forgiveness. God extends it to us through His Son.

God the Father and God the Son are one in essence but not in role. God the Father did not die on the cross; God the Son did. The shell, white, and yolk of an egg are all the egg, but they are not all identical. Not a perfect analogy, granted, but useful as far as it goes.

It is claimed that jesus did those things 2000 years ago. But those are second hand accounts written decades afterwards.

I am not sure that they are reliable.

Why?

I don't. That is the point of being here.

To try to find out.

It is you that knows about god, right?

But you don't appear to be "trying to find out." You seem very much as though you have already made up your mind about what is true about God and the Christian faith and want to challenge Christian believers about their faith as a result.

Selah.

Everyone goes to hell, right?

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