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The eternal torture bit is a bit hard to take. I would argue that the idea of Hell is forever being cut off from god, at least in the christian understanding. but then, I don't know of many mainline Christians that believe in hellfire anymore.
Yes we have metaphors. Remember too that the culture at that time also was very rooted in an oral interpretation of events. It's not much to use the assumption,like in other cultures that only a certain percentage of individuals had the ability to read or write then. And if going on what was true of other cultures, then such a thing would be a device of the priesthood. And in Jesus' case, that would be the Jewish priesthood.
Also you have to take in another facet into consideration during Jesus' lifetime. The Romans. An invading culture with no ties to either the Jewish aristocracy or the faith. They had their puppets no doubt, but they were puppets. they served Rome, and one of the conditions at that time was the concept that the Emporer of Rome was in fact the son of a god. so anything that challenged that, was in fact challenging Rome. Not good if you are a Palestinian Jew with a group of followers that you don't want to see killed or anyone else that may choose to listen to you. Nor would you want to challenge too harshly the Jewish Priesthood yourself, you still would like to follow the then Jewish practise of making sacrifice in the Temple.
So what do you do? You couch your teachings in an ambiguous but yet fairly easy to unravel (how you unravel it is another story) way. You can thus take the meaning that comes to you in that story and choose to apply it if you feel it is of merit.
I'm not sure why current peoples have troubles understanding Jesus' parables but He told us why some people in His day did.
Mat 13:12-15 KJV For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. (13) Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: (15) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
People could hear according to their heart condition and if their condition was hard ( against Yahweh ) they did not understand. Seems fair to me.
Why are you being so simplistic in your consideration of Christ's words? And why are your only conclusions about his motives evil ones? What's your beef with Jesus? Why are you so eager to see him in a bad light?
Why could it not have been that it was simply not the right time to be plain about who he was and what he was going to do on the cross of Calvary? Maybe Jesus knew that the confusing things he spoke of in Matthew 5 would provoke more thought, more interest, in his words and in who he was than just flatly spelling out his role as the Saviour of the world. Perhaps his sermon provoked many to question him afterward in one-on-one discussions that were never recorded in Scripture. You see? Jesus was not necessarily the incompetent, malevolent, ignoramus you seem to want him to be.
Selah.
Oh, please! What a lot of rubbish! Over the centuries since Jesus walked this earth all the questions one could think to ask have been asked many times. And answers - good answers - have been given. It is ignorance - and perhaps not a little hubris - that prompts you to suggest Christians are generally afraid of inquiry into their faith.
Selah.
The quote talks about heaven only, and it is clear even the smallest in heaven is still in heaven. The quotes does not mention hell either.
If you don't see much love in there, you evidently have not read the Gospels.
Honestly, if you want to see what love looks like, look at the cross...
This is answering my questions by not answering them. I will answer your questions only if you will first answer mine.Why are you being so simplistic in your consideration of Christ's words? And why are your only conclusions about his motives evil ones? What's your beef with Jesus? Why are you so eager to see him in a bad light?I could ask you the same:
Why are you being so generous in your consideration of Christ's words?
And why are your only conclusions about his motives good ones?
What's your beef with the actual word of the bible?
Why are you so eager to see him in a good light?
I haven't. But you seem to have. You're quite right, however: as the Supreme Being/Creator of everything God has carte blanche to act as He wishes when He wishes. So, why are you fussing over His conduct and schedule? He's the "Omni-Max" God; He can do as He likes, right?As I said above: we are talking about an omni-max god.
Please don't forget this: surely such a god could have chosen any time or place to reveal this information.
What? Jesus, in Matthew 5, was not speaking to "illiterate goat herders." There were people from widely varying walks of life among his listeners. Even among his own disciples this was true. Luke was a physician; Matthew was a tax-collector; Peter was a fisherman, etc.Why reveal it to illerate goat-herders?
Because Jesus was not come as a conquering king but as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." Christ's primary objective on earth was to be the Saviour, the Redeemer, of humanity, not create social upheaval and political unrest. If he had fully revealed who he was, his entire divine power and authority, the response of the people would have interfered with his sacrificial purpose.Why have your only son be forced to speak in riddles to avoid persecution?
Apparently.Is this the actions of a all-powerful god?
Yes, I can see that. But it seems they stem mainly from your thinking that you have a better understanding of how God should have acted than He does. I don't see how, though. You aren't omniscient, or omnipresent, or all-powerful; you aren't transcendent to time and space. How, then, could you possibly know better than God how He should have conducted Himself?I have serious doubts.
1. the christian god created everything including sin;
But would that men that god is not all loving: this version of god only loves these that loves god first.
Again seems more like (IMO) a sadist than a loving god.
The quote talks about those who get into heaven and those who do/cannot get into heaven.
I assume there are two afterlife states: heaven and hell.
So, once again I have to ask: are you making the case for third state?
Like purgatory?
Yes there is.
It is in the OP. Here it is again, if you missed it:
Why do christains always want to change the topic when I mention this passage?
Many christians want to talk about St. Paul and Romans.
I want to talk about what JESUS said.
Unless you want to reject jesus, which is, naturally, your right to do.
What you fail to understand is that you are not talking about what the Lord said, claiming the apostles did not talk about what the Lord said, & that Christians do not talk about what the Lord said.
When the Lord said He fulfilled the law he summed it up simply and seriously. He said that we are to treat others as we would hope to be (Matthew 7:12) for that is the law & prophets. He later said that the law & prophets are dependent on that we must love God & our neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40). He came to ease our yoke & burdens (Matthew 11:25-30). The Lord told the rich young man what commands to keep (if the young man would have listened & given thanks, in Matthew 19:18-19) which are the same commands reiterated by St. Paul in Romans 13: 8-10).
This is the way the Gospel was preached to the Gentiles. If you want to see a surviving record of how these commands, the sermon on the mount, weekly worship & sacraments were central to the early Christians (most who did not have many of the old testament scrolls) see the late 1st century Didache: CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache
e rs
Two points:
1. One should also prefer a primary source over a secondary one.
2. The primary source is GOD.
I did, Jesus Christ is God, I explained His overall Gospel message, I explained how it was transmitted by the apostles, and I provided evidence of an historical record from ancient Christian community that worshiped according to the Gospel preached by Jesus Christ.
Are you imply the secondary sources are in conflict from source of God? If so can you point out?Yet again, I must remind you that secondary sources are... well, secondary. Why not focus on what jesus actually said. Afterall, he is the primary source and GOD.
Are you imply the secondary sources are in conflict from source of God? If so can you point out?
You want the primary source, the bible contains the word from God.No. I am saying what I am saying.
And I have said it twice now.
Got an answer?
You want the primary source, the bible contains the word from God.
This is answering my questions by not answering them. I will answer your questions only if you will first answer mine.
I haven't. But you seem to have. You're quite right, however: as the Supreme Being/Creator of everything God has carte blanche to act as He wishes when He wishes. So, why are you fussing over His conduct and schedule? He's the "Omni-Max" God; He can do as He likes, right?
Because Jesus was not come as a conquering king but as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." Christ's primary objective on earth was to be the Saviour, the Redeemer, of humanity, not create social upheaval and political unrest. If he had fully revealed who he was, his entire divine power and authority, the response of the people would have interfered with his sacrificial purpose.
In any case, it was evident who he was to those who were really carefully looking. He performed countless miracles; he raised people from the dead; he cast out demons; he taught constantly of God's kingdom. Jesus was "hiding" in plain sight.
Yes, I can see that. But it seems they stem mainly from your thinking that you have a better understanding of how God should have acted than He does. I don't see how, though. You aren't omniscient, or omnipresent, or all-powerful; you aren't transcendent to time and space. How, then, could you possibly know better than God how He should have conducted Himself?
Yet again, I must remind you that secondary sources are... well, secondary. Why not focus on what jesus actually said. Afterall, he is the primary source and GOD.
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