Evangelists arrested at 'Gay Games'

[JoeSaebi]

I believe God.

But you're not God, and what you are saying is not "what God said" but "how some people have interpreted and built upon what God said".

And, given that it contradicts my experience of the world, I have concluded that it is probably incorrect.

I love this, Seebs!

Somehow, I quote the Bible; exactly what it says, then I get "You're not God."

Where did I say I'm God? But here's what gets under you're skin; we are sons/daughters of God--all that believe and turn from sin to follow Jesus.

It bothers you and others here that you have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. You can't live in sin, remain enthroned to the enemy, just acknowledge Christ. No, you have to elevate Him as Lord and be born again by the Holy Spirit. All the unwise virgins knew the Lord, and knew their job, but they never prepared, never filled their lamps with oil.

Its fairly simple; the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There are so many "Christians" who are going to.... Going to follow Jesus, going to turn from sin, going to this, going to that. Yet they're living the lie that the apostle John warns of in 1st John. I'm saddened by supposed "Christians" who supposedly believe in the Bible, believe in Jesus, believe in the apostles, yet so casually disregard Jesus' best friend and closest apostle, John.

 

[cedDallas]

The only problem then is that you wouldn't be following Christ. Christianity isn't a "some of the time" or "most of the time" proposition. Before you even mention it; of course we aren't Christ; we fall down (yet infrequently, not running back into sin often)

Check out the chastisement of Heb 12:4 thru 12:8 This is how we live our lives; as disciples ; not as just hearers, but doers.

Why is it important? Because you can't witness unless you are a disciple. Anything else is just a lie. Because the Holy Spirit is strong in disciples, the manifest power of God witnesses to people directly, that is, the Holy Spirit, being alive in disciples is made manifest to those to whom a disciple witness. However, a mere theologian, who understands doctrine, can witness to a person by logic but the spiritual gift of evangelism isn't imbued in a mere theologian. Their logic might be sound, but the Holy Spirit imbues a disciple with spiritual gifts.

Think about Jesus. No rhetoric was necessary whatsoever to help the lost believe, if they were healed, or a demon was removed. I personally had bondages caused by demonic forces. When the Lord lifted the enemy; my faith was sound! This is what the Holy Spirit can do. But the Holy Spirit won't reside in an unclean vessel. He won't fill a man/woman involved in chronic sin. Therefore they are unable to witness. Perhaps they can argue some theological point; but how can they show Jesus; or carry the Holy Spirit? He isn't in them.

Wow, no offence dude...but you really are not reading or understanding seebs points. I dont think he was saying that Christians should be witnesses some of the time. In fact, his points are quite the opposite. Not sure who you are debating with all your great points and bible verses....

 

[cedDallas]

For 18 years I was a follower of Christ. I even moderated on this very forum. There is a thread I started about OSAS position. Feel free to defend your position that losing faith is a myth. (Btw I wonder if you have ever read Hebrews)

Agreed. I was the poster child for Christianity when I got saved at 18 and worked in Ministry for 10 years. I know my faith was genuine...I asked Jesus into my heart, and asked for the Holy Spirit to come. But I am still in the midst of questioning my faith. The fact is, Jesus said if I ask for bread, he will not give me a stone, so likewise, I asked for the Holy Spirit and God to lead me to him...but the more I study the scripture the more I find fault with it. Did Jesus lie? Will God really not answer my fervent prayer to show himself to me and stregthen my faith?

All my experiences asside, the question remains....is it true? As I study Judaism and learn more about it as the foundation of Christianity, serious questions come up to the validity of the Christian faith. Now...you cannot argue for the validity based on a metaphicical experience like "The Holy Spirit" because countless world religions can make similar claims basied solely on feelings and you cannot refute something so subjective. To proove or disproove Christianity, it all comes down to it's supposed fullfillment of the Jewish Phrophesies. And the fact remains...if you honestly and unbiosly look at them...Jesus appears not to fit.

I say all that to poit out, ppl do "loose faith" all the time. People with real faith and devotion to God...and often times it comes from an honest study of scripture done to seek him.

 

[gladiatrix]

Must have struck a nerve, yes?

Hardly, but since you have no rebuttal this kind of evasive manuver (pretend no arguments were offered) will have to do I suppose.

All this bob and weave; just to avoid the Truth: that Jesus Christ is Lord!

The "Truth"? But that's the point==>Where's ANY evidence that what you claim IS "the Truth"?

Declaring something to be "so" ("the Truth") is a far cry from demonstrating that it is "so" ("the Truth"). You can't even come up with good arguments that Jesus even existed coupled to the fact that the only reliable mentions of him are in a book loaded with absurdities and errors (not surprising, given the time many of these stories were written, i.e.,knowledge of how the world actually operated was extremely limited):

Post #63-Just a FEW Reasons Why I find the Gospel Stories/Bible to be Unreliable
Talk about bobbing and weaving......

Why NOT answer the question I asked:

So why should I or Lanakila have remained Christians or to put it another way, why should anyone believe your particular god-claim (out of the thousands of god-claims available), Joe? Where's the beef? (any kind of rational reason to believe what you claim is "the Truth"?)

 

[cedDallas]

People who don't have the Holy Spirit often state their longevity "in Christ" as proof of the Holy Spirit residing in them. Yet, like Nicodemus, there are many lifelong theologians who know scripture, doctrine, religion, but haven't the faintest idea what it is to be born again.

What do you think Jesus meant by "Do not Judge" in Matthew 7? How can you claim to know the heart of another? How arrogant! Additionally, in Matthew 7, Jesus says "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

So I ask...is Jesus wrong here? I will attest that I have seeked...WITH ALL MY HEART! I Did and STILL DO ask...DAILY!!! I ask him to show me in scripture the truth about him....but I find more and more to disprove the validity of Christianity. The door has not opened? So I suppose you would dismiss that saying I must not be sincere or that I must not really be serious in my heart. That sir, is exactly the kind of judging we are told not to do! I recommend you read Matthew 7 again.

 

[radorth]

So we're agreed then. Why are you telling me, as opposed to people who go on inappropriate content crusades?

Freedom of speech is a problem for a "free thinker" like you? I might tell them to obey the law and pray more for overall revival, but that's about it.

Rad

 

[red77]

I love this, Seebs!

Somehow, I quote the Bible; exactly what it says, then I get "You're not God."

Where did I say I'm God? But here's what gets under you're skin; we are sons/daughters of God--all that believe and turn from sin to follow Jesus.

It bothers you and others here that you have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. You can't live in sin, remain enthroned to the enemy, just acknowledge Christ. No, you have to elevate Him as Lord and be born again by the Holy Spirit. All the unwise virgins knew the Lord, and knew their job, but they never prepared, never filled their lamps with oil.

Its fairly simple; the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There are so many "Christians" who are going to.... Going to follow Jesus, going to turn from sin, going to this, going to that. Yet they're living the lie that the apostle John warns of in 1st John. I'm saddened by supposed "Christians" who supposedly believe in the Bible, believe in Jesus, believe in the apostles, yet so casually disregard Jesus' best friend and closest apostle, John.

Is 'walking the walk' judging and presuming the actions and attitudes of others? Do you actually have the right to make that judgement?

 

[radorth]

Is 'walking the walk' judging and presuming the actions and attitudes of others? Do you actually have the right to make that judgement?

"Whom you forgive, I forgive also."

Guess so if you want to get technical about it. But if you are not judging yourself, I won't either. How's that?

 

[jamesrwright3]

These people have a pretty long history, and calling them evangelists is an insult to Oral Roberts and Benny Hinn.

Actually calling Benny Hinn an evangelist is an
insult

 

[Lanakila]

The Holy Spirit doesn't give the gift of evangelism to non-believers.

Um its not a gift, its a burden. I don't personally believe the Holy Spirit exists, and have challenged Christians to prove it repeatedly on this forum. But, I was sure involved in evangelism as a believer. Even an Evangelism explosion trainer for awhile. I won converts to the Christian faith ect. You can continue to discount my former faith if you like, but at the time it was very real to me, and calling me a liar is offensive.

 

[radorth]

What I think is that it is a flat error to assert that someone who deconverted wasn't Christian. At the very least, we have Hebrews 6 talking of those who have "fallen away"; they must have been Christians.

But beyond that, I think it is a great example of how to drive people away with purely speculative theology. We made up all our little rules about what is and isn't salvation, and they go far beyond the little Jesus told us.

Jesus told us enough to be saved; He did not tell us enough to let us judge others.

I think he did. "If they won't listen to you, shake the dust off your feet," for example, which I don't think many Christians here do actually. The question is whether our motives are merely self-serving- very hard to say. One may judge without being judgemental. But motive is all. You have made several judgemental comments about me personally, one very recently, so if I find your comment a lttle hard to approve, forgive me.

If you would always stick to judging my posts or at least sticking to impersonal judgements of groups, (which is not libelous) then I'm sure such assertions would carry more weight.

Rad

 

[radorth]

Um its not a gift, its a burden. I don't personally believe the Holy Spirit exists, and have challenged Christians to prove it repeatedly on this forum.

What sort of proof would convince you? And please be specific.

Rad

 

[Lanakila]

Must have struck a nerve, yes?

All this bob and weave; just to avoid the Truth: that Jesus Christ is Lord!

Bob and Weave????

I don't believe you struck any nerves. It is offensive to be called a liar repeatedly, but we deconverts are rather used to it. I don't think you read her post at all btw. It was a very thoroughly written out post explaining how its contradictory to say someone can't stop believing in Christianity, and at the same time try to stop people from believing in other religions or no religion. Changing beliefs happens all the time.

 

[Lanakila]

Agreed. I was the poster child for Christianity when I got saved at 18 and worked in Ministry for 10 years. I know my faith was genuine...I asked Jesus into my heart, and asked for the Holy Spirit to come. But I am still in the midst of questioning my faith. The fact is, Jesus said if I ask for bread, he will not give me a stone, so likewise, I asked for the Holy Spirit and God to lead me to him...but the more I study the scripture the more I find fault with it. Did Jesus lie? Will God really not answer my fervent prayer to show himself to me and stregthen my faith?

All my experiences asside, the question remains....is it true? As I study Judaism and learn more about it as the foundation of Christianity, serious questions come up to the validity of the Christian faith. Now...you cannot argue for the validity based on a metaphicical experience like "The Holy Spirit" because countless world religions can make similar claims basied solely on feelings and you cannot refute something so subjective. To proove or disproove Christianity, it all comes down to it's supposed fullfillment of the Jewish Phrophesies. And the fact remains...if you honestly and unbiosly look at them...Jesus appears not to fit.

I say all that to poit out, ppl do "loose faith" all the time. People with real faith and devotion to God...and often times it comes from an honest study of scripture done to seek him.

Exactly. There is a forum that I am a member of called ex Christian.net that is full of people just like you that in their desire to know God better, and serve Jesus by studying the Bible, lost their faith.

 

[Lanakila]

What sort of proof would convince you? And please be specific.

Rad

Well, just the evidence the Bible gives of the Holy Spirit's existence. Christians loving one another would be a good start. The Holy Spirit guiding them into "all truth" might be another. I mean its hard enough for two Christians in one church to agree on what is and isn't godly living, and behavior. What I see is a bunch of claims by believers about gifts of the spirit, and many sects disagree about those gifts btw, no evidence of the Holy Spirit actually existing. As a believer I thought I had the indwelling of the Spirit (although Baptists don't speak in tongues, due to a different understanding of the gifts), but mostly I just read the Bible, and tried to obey standards my own church put on me. I think most Christians do that.

 

[benjdm]

Must have struck a nerve, yes?

Well, yes. You calling all the ex-Christians liars struck a nerve with me.

All this bob and weave; just to avoid the Truth: that Jesus Christ is Lord!

What gladiatrix said was not 'bob and weaving.' It was rational argument. I can understand why you have trouble recognizing it as such.

 

[JGG]

Must have struck a nerve, yes?

All this bob and weave; just to avoid the Truth: that Jesus Christ is Lord!

That's a pretty short rebuttal to such a detailed post (with links).

 

[JoeSaebi]

Um its not a gift, its a burden. I don't personally believe the Holy Spirit exists, and have challenged Christians to prove it repeatedly on this forum. But, I was sure involved in evangelism as a believer. Even an Evangelism explosion trainer for awhile. I won converts to the Christian faith ect. You can continue to discount my former faith if you like, but at the time it was very real to me, and calling me a liar is offensive.

I didn't. If the Holy Spirit convicts your heart, then so be it. John is straightforward; he says that you must live as Jesus did, else you aren't following Christ but living a lie. And Paul explained it pretty clearly, didn't he in Hebrews 12. You're either sons and daughters or illegitimate children; entitled but denying your birthright.

 

[cedDallas]

That's a pretty short rebuttal to such a detailed post (with links).

That is the problem with the majority of Christians. They can quote (many times out of context) Bible verse after verse to prove their points, but when you come to them with serious questions and valid points...they dismiss them without hesitation. This is contrary to what the Bible encourages through Paul’s praise of the Bareans. Many debates follow the same pattern. They will make their point, you counter, they scramble for a verse to back up their opinion, many times without concern for how their point fits into the whole of Christian theology. Then if their point can be countered scripturaly or if you point out the inconsistencies, they either do not respond or they go with the intangible improvable point of the Holy Spirit and how they know it is real and what they believe is inspired by God, because they 'feel' it.

 

[cedDallas]

I didn't. If the Holy Spirit convicts your heart, then so be it. John is straightforward; he says that you must live as Jesus did, else you aren't following Christ but living a lie. And Paul explained it pretty clearly, didn't he in Hebrews 12. You're either sons and daughters or illegitimate children; entitled but denying your birthright.

No...he didn't. It is not known if Paul is the writer of Hebrews. Please, if you have proof that he is, feel free to pass it along to Bible Scholars...since the writer of Hebrews is a mystery and has been speculated about for centuries.

but Im sure you knew that....maybe the Holy Spirit told you it really is Paul.

http://www.carm.org/bible/biblewhen.htm
(just so you dont thing I am making stuff up, here is a link to christian appologetics resource ministry and who wrote what in the bible)