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Euthyphro's Dilemma (for atheists)

Which is true?


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    16

durangodawood

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It has to be some rules "out there" somewhere for you to pick number one.
As a feature of human culture.

Morals dont need to be out there in any absolute way that religious people often conceive of.
 
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Astrid

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As a feature of human culture.

Morals dont need to be out there in any absolute way that religious people often conceive of.

The need to be the purview of the church for reasons of
control.
 
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zippy2006

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...then it remains mind independent in its essence...

No, it would be preference independent in a very specific way, not mind independent. What we prefer and what our mind conceives are not isomorphic. The dubious premise has naught to do with mind independence, but rather with a specific conception of how morality and personal preference interleave.
 
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Moral Orel

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So mired in god- beliefs that you cannot comprehend the thinking
of someone not so burdened hardly makes you
correct in your odd notions about atheists think.
Bwahahahaha!
ehhhhhh-she-dont-know-me-very-well-do-she.jpg
 
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Moral Orel

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Either that, or society decided what our morals should be. Either way works for my vote in the poll.

As a feature of human culture.

Morals dont need to be out there in any absolute way that religious people often conceive of.

"Society" and "culture" are just groups of people. Whether it's decided by "society" or "culture" or the individual, human preference determines what is moral.
 
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durangodawood

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"Society" and "culture" are just groups of people. Whether it's decided by "society" or "culture" or the individual, human preference determines what is moral.
We've been around that block. And whether youre right or wrong, in either case my response to the poll is still reasonable.
 
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durangodawood

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It's a dilemma because there are two mutually exclusive choices. That's what a "dilemma" is.
The first definition that pops up for me is:

"a situation in which a difficult choice has to be made between two or more alternatives, especially equally undesirable ones."

Yes two alternatives are there in your poll. But no, the choice is not difficult.
 
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Moral Orel

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We've been around that block. And whether youre right or wrong, in either case my response to the poll is still reasonable.
If I'm right, then human preferences make a thing moral, and a thing being moral causes human preferences to be what they are. So humans preferences are X because human preferences are X. No, that is not reasonable.

The first definition that pops up for me is:

"a situation in which a difficult choice has to be made between two or more alternatives, especially equally undesirable ones."

Yes two alternatives are there in your poll. But no, the choice is not difficult.
The whole nature of morality is an obvious answer? You didn't need to think about it much, eh?
 
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durangodawood

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....The whole nature of morality is an obvious answer? You didn't need to think about it much, eh?
Your option 1 which I chose is not determinative of the whole nature of morality. Its compatible with multiple explanations of the origins of morality.
 
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durangodawood

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If I'm right, then human preferences make a thing moral, and a thing being moral causes human preferences to be what they are. So humans preferences are X because human preferences are X. No, that is not reasonable....
Even if youre right in principle, your above oversimplification is insufficient to draw conclusions from.
 
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zippy2006

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"Society" and "culture" are just groups of people. Whether it's decided by "society" or "culture" or the individual, human preference determines what is moral.

This is a crucial equivocation between personal preferences and communal preferences. Your poll is clearly about personal preferences (what "I prefer"). There is a difference between something being made moral by a personal preference and something being made moral by a communal preference. Already in Durangoda's <second post> he had clarified that personal preferences are at stake.
 
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muichimotsu

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No, it would be preference independent in a very specific way, not mind independent. What we prefer and what our mind conceives are not isomorphic. The dubious premise has naught to do with mind independence, but rather with a specific conception of how morality and personal preference interleave.

But this assumes mistakenly that that's the only option in terms of a nontheistic system.

If we're just going to be this pedantic, it becomes far more about meta ethical questions than it does about practical considerations of how we assess the moral quality of our actions or even formulate a reasonable model by which we do that.

Descriptive and normative language are both utilized in moral discussions, I think we can all agree on that, it's more that our normative claims cannot be said to be absolutely objective or applicable in all circumstances, which is where the quality of actions can change drastically in whether they would be assessed as moral or immoral (rather than preferences and such that would be amoral, like whether I like strawberry ice cream rather than chocolate)
 
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zippy2006

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But this assumes mistakenly that...

You're running off on a whole slew of tangents here. The question is simple:

Does the first option of the poll indicate that morality is "absolutely mind independent", or does it indicate that morality is preference independent?

The obvious answer is the latter, yet you continue to persist in the former.

Option 1: Morality depends on something other than my preferences.
Option 2: Morality depends entirely on my preferences.
 
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muichimotsu

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You're running off on a whole slew of tangents here. The question is simple:

Does the first option of the poll indicate that morality is "absolutely mind independent", or does it indicate that morality is preference independent?

The obvious answer is the latter, yet you continue to persist in the former.

Option 1: Morality depends on something other than my preferences.
Option 2: Morality depends entirely on my preferences.
It's not either/or and preferences as the primary notion in terms of this "atheistic" perspective is not even a charitable perspective, it's borderline well poisoning to make the group look like psychopaths.

"Absolute" is a qualifier that rarely, if ever, helps in discussions of morality, because it just reduces the topic to something about authority, usually dictated rather than discussed.

I argue it isn't mind independent, because it isn't a physical thing anymore than numbers as descriptive for quantity are physical existence. But I also don't argue it's rooted in preference, because that makes the only other option moral relativism, which is a false dichotomy on its face
 
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Astrid

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It's not either/or and preferences as the primary notion in terms of this "atheistic" perspective is not even a charitable perspective, it's borderline well poisoning to make the group look like psychopaths.

"Absolute" is a qualifier that rarely, if ever, helps in discussions of morality, because it just reduces the topic to something about authority, usually dictated rather than discussed.e

In fewer words, it aint a dilemma.
 
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zippy2006

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It's not either/or and preferences as the primary notion in terms of this "atheistic" perspective is not even a charitable perspective, it's borderline well poisoning to make the group look like psychopaths.

See post #72.

"Absolute" is a qualifier that rarely, if ever, helps in discussions of morality, because it just reduces the topic to something about authority, usually dictated rather than discussed.

Great, then you should stop using it. I was quoting your words in post #71.

I argue it isn't mind independent, because it isn't a physical thing anymore than numbers as descriptive for quantity are physical existence. But I also don't argue it's rooted in preference, because that makes the only other option moral relativism, which is a false dichotomy on its face

It looks like you are clearly assenting to option #1.
 
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