Eusebius the Preterist

[Jack Terrence]

Eusebius of Caesarea who co-authored and co-signed the Nicene Creed was also a Preterist. He taught the Christ returned in the destruction of Jerusalem AD70.


"But the things which took place afterwards, did our Saviour, from his foreknowledge as the Word, or God, foretel should come to pass, by means of those which are (now) before us. For He named the whole Jewish people, the children of the City; and the Temple, He styled their House. And thus He testified, that they should, on their own wicked account, bear the vengeance thus to be inflicted. And, it is right we should wonder at the fulfilment of this prediction, since at no time did this place undergo such an entire desolation as this was. He pointed out moreover, the cause of their desolation when He said, "If thou hadst known, even in this day, the things of thy peace:" intimating too His own coming, which should be for the peace of the whole world. But, when ye shall see it reduced by armies, know ye that which comes upon it, to be a final and full desolation and destruction. He designates the desolation of Jerusalem, by the destruction of the Temple, and the laying aside of those services which were, according to the law of Moses, formerly performed within it. The manner moreover of the captivity, points out the war. of which He spoke; "For (said He) there shall be (great) tribulation upon the land, and great wrath upon this people : and they shall fall by the edge of the sword." We can learn too, from the writings of Flavius Josephus, how these things took place in their localities, and how those, which had been foretold by our Saviour, were, in fact, fulfilled. On this account He said, "Let those who are in its borders not enter into it, since these are the days of vengeance, that all may be fulfilled which has been written." Any one therefore, who desires it, may learn the results of these things from the writings of Josephus.

"Since, then, it is evident that our Saviour was anointed uniquely beyond all that ever were with the excellent spiritual, or rather divine unction, He is rightly called "Holy of holies," as one might say, "High Priest of high priests," and "Sanctified of the sanctified" according to the oracle of Gabriel."

“And from that time a succession of all kinds of troubles afflicted the whole nation and their city until the last war against them, and the final siege, in which destruction rushed on them like a flood [Dan. 9:26] with all kinds of misery of famine [Matt. 24:7], plague [Luke 21:21] and sword [Luke 21:24], and all who had conspired against the Saviour in their youth were cut off; then, too, the abomination of desolation stood in the Temple [Matt. 24:15], and it has remained there even till to-day, while they [i.e., the Jews] have daily reached deeper depths of desolation.” (The Proof of the Gospel, trans. W. J. Ferrar, 2 vols. in 1 (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1981), 2:138, (403: b-c).)

"The Holy Scriptures foretell that there will be unmistakable signs of the Coming of Christ. Now there were among the Hebrews three outstanding offices of dignity, which made the nation famous, firstly the kingship, secondly that of prophet, and lastly the high priesthood. The prophecies said that the abolition and complete destruction of all these three together would be the sign of the presence of the Christ. And that the proofs that the times had come, would lie in the ceasing of the Mosaic worship, the desolation of Jerusalem and its Temple, and the subjection of the whole Jewish race to its enemies...The holy oracles foretold that all these changes, which had not been made in the days of the prophets of old, would take place at the coming of the Christ, which I will presently shew to have been fulfilled as never before in accordance with the predictions." (Demonstratio Evangelica VIII)

You have then in this prophecy of the Descent of the Lord among men from heaven, many other things foretold at the same time, the rejection of the Jews, the judgment on their impiety, the destruction of their royal city, the abolition of the worship practised by them of old according to the Law of Moses; and on the other hand, promises of good for the nations, the knowledge of God, a new ideal of holiness, a new law and teaching coming forth from the land of the Jews. I leave you to see, how wonderful a fulfilment, how wonderful a completion, the prophecy has reached after the Coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ." (Demonstratio Evangelica; Book VI - Chapter 13)

"I have already considered this prophecy among the passages. And I have pointed out that only from the date of our Saviour Jesus Christ's Coming among men have the objects of Jewish reverence, the hill called Zion and Jerusalem, the buildings there, that is to say, the Temple, the Holy of Holies, the Altar, and whatever else was there dedicated to the glory of God, been utterly removed or shaken, in fulfilment of the Word which said: "Behold the Lord, the Lord comes forth from his place, and he shall descend on the high places of the earth, and the mountains shall be shaken under him." (Demonstratio Evangelica ; Book VIII - Chapter 3)

"When, then, we see what was of old foretold for the nations fulfilled in our own day, and when the lamentation and wailing that was predicted for the Jews, and the burning of the Temple and its utter desolation, can also be seen even now to have occurred according to the prediction, surely we must also agree that the King who was prophesied, the Christ of God, HAS COME, since the signs of His coming have been shewn in each instance I have treated TO HAVE BEEN CLEARLY FULFILLED." (Demonstratio Evangelica; Book VIII)

 

[Anto9us]

Interesting stuff, Boxer.

It is my understanding that the CREED was in two slightly different forms - one at a council of Nicaea and one at council in Constantinople

I don't know which one Eusebius signed.

The later form of the Creed contained more info about the Holy Spirit.

As far as a clause about Christ going to return, that may or may not have been in both forms of Creed, I dunno.

Incidentally, my United Methodist Church uses for our Affirmation of Faith the CREED OF THE UNITED CHURCHES OF CANADA - that creed makes no mention of a RETURN like Nicene Creed and Apostles' Creeds; iow, it could be considered a "Preterist Friendly" creed...

I grew up in Meth church saying APOSTLES CREED - which definitely says "from which He shall come..."

so a creed with no "return" mentioned is a move towards being more pret friendly

However, the communion liturgy includes the congregational response of "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again"

we only say it once a month; its not the only communion liturgy - I'll have to see if there are any in the hymnal that might be totally "pret-kosher"

 

[Jack Terrence]

Interesting stuff, Boxer.

It is my understanding that the CREED was in two slightly different forms - one at a council of Nicaea and one at council in Constantinople. I don't know which one Eusebius signed.

Eusebius co-authored and co-signed the original Nicene Creed in in 325.

As far as a clause about Christ going to return, that may or may not have been in both forms of Creed, I dunno.

The original creed said nothing about Christ's return. This is why it is erroneous judge that Preterism is "unorthodox" by the Nicene Creed when it actually said NOTHING about Christ's return.

so a creed with no "return" mentioned is a move towards being more pret friendly

Correct. Eschatology was not a litmus test until later, and it was Premillennialism that was condemned. The Council of Ephesus condemned Premillennialism as a "superstitious aberration" in 431. Yet Premillennialism is considered "orthodox" by the modern church.

 

[ChetSinger]

I think that in modern terms Eusebius would be called a partial preterist, not a full preterist.

 

[Anto9us]

Really?

"surely we must also agree that the King who was prophesied, the Christ of God, HAS COME, since the signs of His coming have been shewn in each instance I have treated TO HAVE BEEN CLEARLY FULFILLED." (Demonstratio Evangelica; Book VIII)"

"And that the proofs that the times had come, would lie in the ceasing of the Mosaic worship, the desolation of Jerusalem and its Temple, and the subjection of the whole Jewish race to its enemies...The holy oracles foretold that all these changes, which had not been made in the days of the prophets of old, would take place at the coming of the Christ, which I will presently shew to have been fulfilled as never before in accordance with the predictions." (Demonstratio Evangelica VIII)"

Sounds kinda FULL to me...

just sayin

 

[ChetSinger]

Full preterism includes the resurrection of the dead and the final judgment. I don't see Eusebius including that.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Eusebius of Caesarea who co-authored and co-signed the Nicene Creed was also a Preterist. He taught the Christ returned in the destruction of Jerusalem AD70.


"But the things which took place afterwards, did our Saviour, from his foreknowledge as the Word, or God, foretel should come to pass, by means of those which are (now) before us. For He named the whole Jewish people, the children of the City; and the Temple, He styled their House. And thus He testified, that they should, on their own wicked account, bear the vengeance thus to be inflicted. And, it is right we should wonder at the fulfilment of this prediction, since at no time did this place undergo such an entire desolation as this was. He pointed out moreover, the cause of their desolation when He said, "If thou hadst known, even in this day, the things of thy peace:" intimating too His own coming, which should be for the peace of the whole world. But, when ye shall see it reduced by armies, know ye that which comes upon it, to be a final and full desolation and destruction. He designates the desolation of Jerusalem, by the destruction of the Temple, and the laying aside of those services which were, according to the law of Moses, formerly performed within it. The manner moreover of the captivity, points out the war. of which He spoke; "For (said He) there shall be (great) tribulation upon the land, and great wrath upon this people : and they shall fall by the edge of the sword." We can learn too, from the writings of Flavius Josephus, how these things took place in their localities, and how those, which had been foretold by our Saviour, were, in fact, fulfilled. On this account He said, "Let those who are in its borders not enter into it, since these are the days of vengeance, that all may be fulfilled which has been written." Any one therefore, who desires it, may learn the results of these things from the writings of Josephus.

"Since, then, it is evident that our Saviour was anointed uniquely beyond all that ever were with the excellent spiritual, or rather divine unction, He is rightly called "Holy of holies," as one might say, "High Priest of high priests," and "Sanctified of the sanctified" according to the oracle of Gabriel."

“And from that time a succession of all kinds of troubles afflicted the whole nation and their city until the last war against them, and the final siege, in which destruction rushed on them like a flood [Dan. 9:26] with all kinds of misery of famine [Matt. 24:7], plague [Luke 21:21] and sword [Luke 21:24], and all who had conspired against the Saviour in their youth were cut off; then, too, the abomination of desolation stood in the Temple [Matt. 24:15], and it has remained there even till to-day, while they [i.e., the Jews] have daily reached deeper depths of desolation.” (The Proof of the Gospel, trans. W. J. Ferrar, 2 vols. in 1 (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1981), 2:138, (403: b-c).)

"The Holy Scriptures foretell that there will be unmistakable signs of the Coming of Christ. Now there were among the Hebrews three outstanding offices of dignity, which made the nation famous, firstly the kingship, secondly that of prophet, and lastly the high priesthood. The prophecies said that the abolition and complete destruction of all these three together would be the sign of the presence of the Christ. And that the proofs that the times had come, would lie in the ceasing of the Mosaic worship, the desolation of Jerusalem and its Temple, and the subjection of the whole Jewish race to its enemies...The holy oracles foretold that all these changes, which had not been made in the days of the prophets of old, would take place at the coming of the Christ, which I will presently shew to have been fulfilled as never before in accordance with the predictions." (Demonstratio Evangelica VIII)

You have then in this prophecy of the Descent of the Lord among men from heaven, many other things foretold at the same time, the rejection of the Jews, the judgment on their impiety, the destruction of their royal city, the abolition of the worship practised by them of old according to the Law of Moses; and on the other hand, promises of good for the nations, the knowledge of God, a new ideal of holiness, a new law and teaching coming forth from the land of the Jews. I leave you to see, how wonderful a fulfilment, how wonderful a completion, the prophecy has reached after the Coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ." (Demonstratio Evangelica; Book VI - Chapter 13)

"I have already considered this prophecy among the passages. And I have pointed out that only from the date of our Saviour Jesus Christ's Coming among men have the objects of Jewish reverence, the hill called Zion and Jerusalem, the buildings there, that is to say, the Temple, the Holy of Holies, the Altar, and whatever else was there dedicated to the glory of God, been utterly removed or shaken, in fulfilment of the Word which said: "Behold the Lord, the Lord comes forth from his place, and he shall descend on the high places of the earth, and the mountains shall be shaken under him." (Demonstratio Evangelica ; Book VIII - Chapter 3)

"When, then, we see what was of old foretold for the nations fulfilled in our own day, and when the lamentation and wailing that was predicted for the Jews, and the burning of the Temple and its utter desolation, can also be seen even now to have occurred according to the prediction, surely we must also agree that the King who was prophesied, the Christ of God, HAS COME, since the signs of His coming have been shewn in each instance I have treated TO HAVE BEEN CLEARLY FULFILLED." (Demonstratio Evangelica; Book VIII)

How did I miss this thread!
Another nail in the coffin of the Futurists '


.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Full preterism includes the resurrection of the dead and the final judgment. I don't see Eusebius including that.

Neither was the Ninevites or Queen of the South seen either.....
Is that hyperbole or literal?

Matt 12:
41 `Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with this generation and shall be condemning it/her
that they reform into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here.
42 `A Queen of the south shall be being aroused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with this generation and shall be condemning it/her.
That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold! more of Solomon here!


.

 

[Der Alte]

How did I miss this thread!
Another nail in the coffin of the Futurists '.

I already addressed this. Eusebius is only one witness about 230 years after the events were supposed to have happened. Here are some earlier ECF. They don't see that all the prophecies have been fulfilled.

The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Magnesians [ca. 98 AD]
Ignatius was a disciple of John the apostle. John certainly would have taught him, if Jesus had returned 28 years earlier.

These things[I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state;[17] but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards ye attain to full assurance in regard to the birth, and passion, and resurrection which took place in the time of the government of Pontius Pilate, being truly and certainly accomplished by Jesus Christ, who is our hope,[1] from which may no one of you ever be turned aside. Born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man. He also lived a holy life, and healed every kind of sickness and disease among the people, and wrought signs and wonders for the benefit of men; and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father, and underwent the passion, and endured the cross at the hands of the Christ-killing Jews, under Pontius Pilate the governor and Herod the king. He also died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens to Him that sent Him, and is sat down at His right hand, and shall come at the end of the world, with His Father's glory, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works.[2] He who knows these things with a full assurance, and believes them, is happy; even as ye are now the lovers of God and of Christ, in the full assurance of our hope, from which may no one of us[3] ever be turned aside!

Chap. X.--Beware Of Judaizing.

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity.[7] For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be ye changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be ye salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour ye shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess[12] Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace[13] Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.

The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Philadelphians
Chap. VI.--Do Not Accept Judaism.

But if any one preach the Jewish law(9) unto you, listen not to him. For it is better to hearken to Christian doctrine from a man who has been circumcised, than to Judaism from one uncircumcised. But if either of such persons do not speak concerning Jesus Christ, they are in my judgment but as monuments and sepulchres of the dead, upon which are written only the names of men. Flee therefore the wicked devices and snares of the prince prophets, but denies Christ to be the Son of God, he is a liar, even as also is his father the devil,(10) and is a Jew falsely so called, being possessed of(11) mere carnal circumcision.​

The late date, for the writing of Revelation, by John, ca. 96 AD, has been argued against because it mentions Judaizers, which according to Preter. sources, “would be ridiculous after the temple was destroyed..” Yet, here Ignatius warns against Judaizers, in two of his letters, 98 AD and later.

If the “Day of the Lord” and Jesus’ return occurred in 70 AD then Justin Martyr writing about 150 AD knew nothing about it. Justin specifically states that God “has still delayed” Jesus return, following His ascension.

The First Apology Of Justin [110-165 AD]

For in the Jewish war which lately raged, Barchochebas, the leader of the revolt of the Jews, gave orders that Christians alone should be led to cruel punishments, unless they would deny Jesus Christ and utter blasphemy. In these books, then, of the prophets we found Jesus our Christ foretold as coming, born of a virgin, growing up to man's estate, and healing every disease and every sickness, and raising the dead, and being hated, and unrecognised, and crucified, and dying, and rising again, and ascending into heaven, and being, and being called, the Son of God . We find it also predicted that certain persons should be sent by Him into every nation to publish these things, and that rather among the Gentiles [than among the Jews] men should believe on Him. And He was predicted before He appeared, first 5000 years before, and again 3000, then 2000, then 1000, and yet again 800; for in the succession of generations prophets after prophets arose.

Chap. XLV.--Christ's Session In Heaven Foretold.

And that God the Father of all would bring Christ to heaven after He had raised Him from the dead, and would keep Him there(2) until He has subdued His enemies the devils, and until the number of those who are foreknown by Him as good and virtuous is complete, on whose account He has still delayed the consummation --hear what was said by the prophet David. These are his words: "The Lord said unto My Lord, Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool. The Lord shall send to Thee the rod of power out of Jerusalem; and rule Thou in the midst of Thine enemies. With Thee is the government in the day of Thy power, in the beauties of Thy saints: from the womb of morning(3) hare I begotten Thee."(4) That which he says, "He shall send to Thee the rod of power out of Jerusalem," is predictive of the mighty, word, which His apostles, going forth from Jerusalem, preached everywhere; and though death is decreed against those who teach or at all confess the name of Christ, we everywhere both embrace and teach it. And if you also read these words in a hostile spirit, ye can do no more, as I said before, than kill us; which indeed does no harm to us, but to you and all who unjustly hate us, and do not repent, brings eternal punishment by tire.​

Irenaeus Against Heresies [120-202 AD]

1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations(6) of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one,"(7) and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess"(8) to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses,"

Origen, From the Second Book of the Commentary on the Gospel According to Matthew Book XII. [185-254 AD]

But when the Word comes in such form with His own angels, He will give to each a part of His own glory and of the brightness of His own angels, according to the action of each. But we say these things not rejecting even the second coming of the Son of God understood in its simpler form. But when shall these things happen? Shall it be when that apostolic oracle is fulfilled which says, "For we must all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things dope in the body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad? " But if He will render to each according to his deed, not the good deed only, nor the evil apart from the good, it is manifest that He will render to each according to every evil, and according to every good, deed. But I suppose-in this also following the Apostle, but comparing also the sayings of Ezekiel, in which the sins of him who is a perfect convert are wiped out, and the former uprightness of him who has utterly fallen away is not held of account-that in the case of him who is perfected, and has altogether laid aside wickedness, the sins are wiped out, but that, in the case of him who has altogether revolted from piety, if anything good was formerly done by him, it is not taken into account. But to us, who occupy a middle position between the perfect man add the apostate, when we stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, there is rendered what we have done, whether good or bad; for we have not been so pure that our evil deeds are not at all imputed unto us, nor have we fallen away to such an extent that our better actions are forgotten.

ANF10. Bibliographic Synopsis; General Index - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Tertullian The Five Books Against Marcion. Book III [160-225 AD]

His Christ also will come, just as it is written of Him. Why did he come after the Creator, since he was unable to correct Him by punishment? Why did he reveal himself before Christ, whom he could not hinder from appearing? If, on the contrary, he did chastise the Creator, he revealed himself, (I suppose, ) after Him in order that things which require correction might come first. On which account also, (of course, ) he ought to have waited for Christ to appear first, whom he was going to chastise in like manner; then he would be His punisher coming after Him, just as he had been in the case of the Creator. There is another consideration: since he will at his second advent come after Him, that as he at His first coming took hostile proceed-rags against the Creator, destroying the law and the prophets, which were His, so he may, to be sure, at his second coming proceed in opposition to Christ, upsetting His kingdom. Then, no doubt, he would terminate his course, and then (if ever) be worthy of belief; for else, if his work has been already perfected, it would be in vain for him to come, for there would indeed be nothing that he could further accomplish.

Now these signs of degradation quite suit His first coming, just as the tokens of His majesty do His second advent, when He shall no longer remain "a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence," but after His rejection become "the chief corner-stone," accepted and elevated to the top place of the temple, even His church, being that very stone in Daniel, cut out of the mountain, which was to smite and crush the image of the secular kingdom.

Then indeed He shall have both a glorious form, and an unsullied beauty above the sons of men. "Thou art fairer," says (the Psalmist), "than the children of men; grace is poured into Thy lips; therefore God hath blessed Thee for ever.

Gird Thy sword upon Thy thigh, O most mighty, with Thy glory and Thy majesty." For the Father, after making Him a little lower than the angels, "will crown Him with glory and honour, and put all things under His feet." "Then shall they look on Him whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, tribe after tribe; " because, no doubt, they once refused to acknowledge Him in the lowliness of His human condition. He is even a man says Jeremiah, and who shall recognise Him Therefore, asks Isaiah, "who shall declare His generation? "

If I may offer, moreover, an interpretation of the two goats which were presented on "the great day of atonement," do they not also figure the two natures of Christ? They were of like size, and very similar in appearance, owing to the Lord's identity of aspect; because He is not to come in any other form, having to be recognised by those by whom He was also wounded and pierced. One of these goats was bound with scarlet, and driven by the people out of the camp into the wilderness, amid cursing, and spitting, and pulling, and piercing, being thus marked with all the signs of the Lord's own passion; while the other, by being offered up for sins, and given to the priests of the temple for meat, afforded proofs of His second appearance, when (after all sins have been expiated) the priests of the spiritual temple, that is, the church, are to enjoy the flesh, as it were, of the Lord's own grace, whilst the residue go away from salvation without tasting it. Since, therefore, the first advent was prophetically declared both as most obscure in its types, and as deformed with every kind of indignity, but the second as glorious and altogether worthy of God, they would on this very account, while confining their regards to that which they were easily able both to understand and to believe, even the second advent, be not undeservedly deceived respecting the more obscure, and, at any rate, the more lowly first coming. Accordingly, to this day they deny that their Christ has come, because He has not appeared in majesty, while they ignore the fact that He was to come also in lowliness.

ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library​

Note, none of these early church fathers mention the “Day of the Lord”, the return of Jesus with all of his angels, which supposedly occurred in 70 AD.
Should you feel inclined to check my sources here is the link to the early church fathers at CCEL, online.

Early Church Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I already addressed this. Eusebius is only one witness about 230 years after the events were supposed to have happened.
Here are some earlier ECF. They don't see that all the prophecies have been fulfilled.

Should you feel inclined to check my sources here is the link to the early church fathers at CCEL, online.

Early Church Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Thks for the link.
I would say that if they were around today and had access to all the biblical resources we have today, that they would be Preterists.
But I suppose we will never know.
At least we are keeping the discussion civil and respectful [at least so far]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7263824-19/#post47928988
Did the ECFs really know/understand the Scriptures better?

They understood some things with greater clarity than we could hope for, because they were far, far closer to Christ in time and proximity than we are, 2000 years later. They were taught by people who were taught by the Apostles, who were themselves taught by Christ. Therefore I would maintain that the writings of the Church Fathers are intensely important for us to pay attention to, because they reflect the actual beliefs, teachings, and practices of the earliest Christians. They give us an insight into what life was really like for our Christian ancestors.

View Poll Results: Early ECFs better knew the Scriptures than those today do

Yes of course they did

58 65.17%

No of course they didn't

24 26.97%

Not really sure right now

7 7.87%

 

[RevelationTestament]

Eusebius of Caesarea who co-authored and co-signed the Nicene Creed was also a Preterist. He taught the Christ returned in the destruction of Jerusalem AD70.


"But the things which took place afterwards, did our Saviour, from his foreknowledge as the Word, or God, foretel should come to pass, by means of those which are (now) before us. For He named the whole Jewish people, the children of the City; and the Temple, He styled their House. And thus He testified, that they should, on their own wicked account, bear the vengeance thus to be inflicted. And, it is right we should wonder at the fulfilment of this prediction, since at no time did this place undergo such an entire desolation as this was. He pointed out moreover, the cause of their desolation when He said, "If thou hadst known, even in this day, the things of thy peace:" intimating too His own coming, which should be for the peace of the whole world. But, when ye shall see it reduced by armies, know ye that which comes upon it, to be a final and full desolation and destruction. He designates the desolation of Jerusalem, by the destruction of the Temple, and the laying aside of those services which were, according to the law of Moses, formerly performed within it. The manner moreover of the captivity, points out the war. of which He spoke; "For (said He) there shall be (great) tribulation upon the land, and great wrath upon this people : and they shall fall by the edge of the sword." We can learn too, from the writings of Flavius Josephus, how these things took place in their localities, and how those, which had been foretold by our Saviour, were, in fact, fulfilled. On this account He said, "Let those who are in its borders not enter into it, since these are the days of vengeance, that all may be fulfilled which has been written." Any one therefore, who desires it, may learn the results of these things from the writings of Josephus.

"Since, then, it is evident that our Saviour was anointed uniquely beyond all that ever were with the excellent spiritual, or rather divine unction, He is rightly called "Holy of holies," as one might say, "High Priest of high priests," and "Sanctified of the sanctified" according to the oracle of Gabriel."

“And from that time a succession of all kinds of troubles afflicted the whole nation and their city until the last war against them, and the final siege, in which destruction rushed on them like a flood [Dan. 9:26] with all kinds of misery of famine [Matt. 24:7], plague [Luke 21:21] and sword [Luke 21:24], and all who had conspired against the Saviour in their youth were cut off; then, too, the abomination of desolation stood in the Temple [Matt. 24:15], and it has remained there even till to-day, while they [i.e., the Jews] have daily reached deeper depths of desolation.” (The Proof of the Gospel, trans. W. J. Ferrar, 2 vols. in 1 (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1981), 2:138, (403: b-c).)

"The Holy Scriptures foretell that there will be unmistakable signs of the Coming of Christ. Now there were among the Hebrews three outstanding offices of dignity, which made the nation famous, firstly the kingship, secondly that of prophet, and lastly the high priesthood. The prophecies said that the abolition and complete destruction of all these three together would be the sign of the presence of the Christ. And that the proofs that the times had come, would lie in the ceasing of the Mosaic worship, the desolation of Jerusalem and its Temple, and the subjection of the whole Jewish race to its enemies...The holy oracles foretold that all these changes, which had not been made in the days of the prophets of old, would take place at the coming of the Christ, which I will presently shew to have been fulfilled as never before in accordance with the predictions." (Demonstratio Evangelica VIII)

You have then in this prophecy of the Descent of the Lord among men from heaven, many other things foretold at the same time, the rejection of the Jews, the judgment on their impiety, the destruction of their royal city, the abolition of the worship practised by them of old according to the Law of Moses; and on the other hand, promises of good for the nations, the knowledge of God, a new ideal of holiness, a new law and teaching coming forth from the land of the Jews. I leave you to see, how wonderful a fulfilment, how wonderful a completion, the prophecy has reached after the Coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ." (Demonstratio Evangelica; Book VI - Chapter 13)

"I have already considered this prophecy among the passages. And I have pointed out that only from the date of our Saviour Jesus Christ's Coming among men have the objects of Jewish reverence, the hill called Zion and Jerusalem, the buildings there, that is to say, the Temple, the Holy of Holies, the Altar, and whatever else was there dedicated to the glory of God, been utterly removed or shaken, in fulfilment of the Word which said: "Behold the Lord, the Lord comes forth from his place, and he shall descend on the high places of the earth, and the mountains shall be shaken under him." (Demonstratio Evangelica ; Book VIII - Chapter 3)

"When, then, we see what was of old foretold for the nations fulfilled in our own day, and when the lamentation and wailing that was predicted for the Jews, and the burning of the Temple and its utter desolation, can also be seen even now to have occurred according to the prediction, surely we must also agree that the King who was prophesied, the Christ of God, HAS COME, since the signs of His coming have been shewn in each instance I have treated TO HAVE BEEN CLEARLY FULFILLED." (Demonstratio Evangelica; Book VIII)

Seems to me he is talking about the first coming....and all the prophecies regarding his coming being fulfilled such as Daniel 9.

 

[Copenator]

Seems to me he is talking about the first coming....and all the prophecies regarding his coming being fulfilled such as Daniel 9.

Doesn't Daniel 9 include His second coming?

(Dan 9:24 NKJV) "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

Copenator

 

[Jack Terrence]

Seems to me he is talking about the first coming....and all the prophecies regarding his coming being fulfilled such as Daniel 9.

First paragraph:

"But the things which took place afterwards, did our Saviour, from his foreknowledge as the Word, or God, foretel should come to pass, by means of those which are (now) before us. For He named the whole Jewish people, the children of the City; and the Temple, He styled their House. And thus He testified, that they should, on their own wicked account, bear the vengeance thus to be inflicted.

 

[RevelationTestament]

First paragraph:

"But the things which took place afterwards, did our Saviour, from his foreknowledge as the Word, or God, foretel should come to pass, by means of those which are (now) before us. For He named the whole Jewish people, the children of the City; and the Temple, He styled their House. And thus He testified, that they should, on their own wicked account, bear the vengeance thus to be inflicted.

And he continues: "He pointed out moreover, the cause of their desolation when He said, "If thou hadst known, even in this day, the things of thy peace:" intimating too His own coming, which should be for the peace of the whole world."
In other words Jesus was intimating that the signs of his coming were being fulfilled. That Eusebius understands him to be talking about his first coming is clear by his referencing Daniel 9: "and the final siege, in which destruction rushed on them like a flood [Dan. 9:26]"
He further says:

The holy oracles foretold that all these changes, which had not been made in the days of the prophets of old, would take place at the coming of the Christ, which I will presently shew to have been fulfilled as never before in accordance with the predictions."

So now tell me... where do the oracles ie OT prophets prophesy of a second coming? No, they prophesy of His coming.... the breaking of the covenant, that He would ride on the colt of an ass, that he would prized at the goodly price of 30 pieces of silver... the cost of a slave, that the city would be destroyed by the desolator after being built back up to the Messiah (Daniel 9), etc, etc. Perhaps you need to reexamine the prophecies Eusebius is alluding to more closely.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Doesn't Daniel 9 include His second coming?

(Dan 9:24 NKJV) "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

Copenator

No. Here is Daniel 9 broken down in detail:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah [Anointed one] the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall even in troublous times. And after threescore (60) and two weeks shall Messiah be cutoff, but not for himself: and the people of the prince [Rome] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary [Titus destroyed the temple]; and the end thereof shall be with a flood [again a flood being the workings of Satan in men], and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week [3 1/2 days or years] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation [the END], and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. [The last sentence has also been interpreted as: "and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator." Oxford Annotated Bible] Daniel 9:24-7.

I will start by saying Rome is the abomination which maketh desolate. The Roman Church is the Great Harlot and Mother of Abominations of the Earth. At the decreed end the desolator will receive the judgments of Revelation 18. Now let us determine when the 70 weeks start. After Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem, the Hebrews returned to Jerusalem in two main migrations, but Daniel stayed in the capitol of the Persians. The first migration under Zerubbabel had commission to rebuild the Temple [known as the Temple of Zerubbabel]. The commission came through king Cyrus of Persia in his first year to build an house at Jerusalem to the LORD God. Cyrus the king brought the vessels of gold and silver king Nebuchadnezzar had taken, and gave them to Sheshbazzar, the prince of Judah (Zerubbabel), to be taken to Jerusalem. Ezra 1. Zerubbabel led forth the families listed in Ezra 2 to Judah. By the seventh month the people were in their cities, and gathered in Jerusalem where Zerubbabel directed them first in building an altar. Then according to the grant of Cyrus king of Persia, they began collecting wood and materials to rebuild the Temple. Ezra 3. Apparently the rebuilding effort stopped or slowed during the eight year reign of Cambyses. In the sixth month of the second year of Darius the spirit of the LORD was stirred in Zerubbabel through the words of Haggai, to finish the Temple. Apparently, by this time Zerubbabel was recognized as governor of Judah. Haggai 1. The Temple was finished under Darius, king of Persia (who renewed the decree of Cyrus or possibly Darius II), on the third day of the month Adar in the sixth year of Darius. Ezra 6. The second migration returned under Ezra, the scribe, who left Babylon the first day of the first month in the seventh year of king Artaxerxes, who ruled after Darius I, and therefore after Daniel's account. Ezra 7:7-9. They were commissioned by the LORD and king Artaxerxes to beautify the Temple by a letter found in Ezra 7.

However, in the twentieth year of king Artaxerxes, Nehemiah learned of the troublous times of his people: "The remnant that are left of the captivity there in the province are in great affliction and reproach: the wall of Jerusalem also is broken down, and the gates thereof are burned with fire." Nehemiah 1:1-3. King Artaxerxes saw his troubled countenance, and Nehemiah told him it was because Jerusalem lay waste, and the gates lay burnt. So the king prepared a letter to the keeper of his forest to cut timber for the rebuilding, and sent Nehemiah to Jerusalem. Nehemiah 2:1-8. When he arrived, he found the city in a state of waste. He told the people what God had put in his heart to do, and called the people to rebuild. Nehemiah 2:17-8. But these were troublous times. When the Arabians, the Ammonites, the Ashdodites, and Tobiah, and Sanballat heard of the rebuilding, they came to fight against Jerusalem, so Nehemiah "...set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows." Nehemiah 4:7,8,13. "So the wall was finished in the twenty and fifth day of the month Elul, in fifty and two days." Nehemiah 6:15. "Now the city was large and great: but the people were few therein, and the houses were not builded." Nehemiah 7:4.

Cyrus II (the Great) reigned from 549-530 B.C.; Cambyses II from 530-522 B.C.; Darius from 522-486 B.C.; and Xerxes from 486-465 B.C. The commandment to rebuild the walls and the city was to Nehemiah in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes. Artaxerxes I ruled from 465 B.C. to 424 B.C.[1] His twentieth year was 445 B.C. This is about when Old Testament prophecy stopped. This is the beginning of the seventy weeks, which commence with seven weeks (7 x 7 = 49 days/years) to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (when the walls are rebuilt) unto the Messiah, which brings us to 396 B.C. After the second period of threescore and two weeks the Messiah is cut off. Sixty two weeks equals 434 days or prophetic years, which brings us to 38 Anno Domini (according to Roman dating). After His ascension our Lord continued to periodically speak to His apostles, and personally called Paul as a disciple. He then was cut off for awhile, and the Holy Spirit did His work. So the third and last period of the seventy weeks is not consecutive. "Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another. And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that is was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." Zechariah 11:9-14.

The third period is a period of only one week (7 years) when he shall confirm the covenant with many. This is a prophecy of the seven year Jewish war beginning under the reign of Nero. One might say He began to confirm the covenant in Rome in the autumn of 63 A.D. or 64 A.D., when many Christians were called to confirm their covenants with our Lord, and were sacrificed under Nero who chose to blame the Christians for the great fire in Rome. A tradition places the sacrifice of Peter in 67 A.D., rather than 64 A.D. However, this prophecy was directed specifically to the Jews, some of whom had accepted Jesus Christ (Acts 11,12). In the Holy Land the Jewish war did not start until approximately August 15, 66 A.D., when Antonia was attacked, although some argue that it began with the unrest in Jerusalem and its surroundings in approximately May, 66. For the dates concerning the Jewish war I rely on the history of Josephus, the Jewish historian to the Romans. His history uses Macedonian (Greek) names for the months of the year which seem to correspond best with an accurate date if imposed upon the Roman months of the year. If, alternatively the Macedonian name is imposed on the Tyrian system or on the luni-solar calender, the date may vary up to one half month from the date I use herein (Roman). In the spring of the 13th year of Nero, 67 A.D., Vespasian, who is the seventh crown of the great red dragon, was sent to subdue the Hebrews. He began by taking cities and fortresses in Galilee: Jotapata, Japha, Garizim, Tarichaeae, and Gamala. After the death of Nero, Vespasian left his invasion of Judaea in 69 A.D., and returned to defeat Vitellius and become emperor. He then sent his son, Titus.

In the midst of the week, that is in the fourth or middle year, He causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease. The fourth year of the war would be August 15, 69 A.D., to August 14, 70 A.D. According to Josephus, Titus took the outer wall of Jerusalem on May 7, 70. The Temple sacrifice ceased on 17 Panemus, which would correspond with July 17, 70 A.D. Titus burned the Temple on August 10 (10 Lous), 70 A.D. Then the prophesied desolation began. On September 8 (8 Gorpaeus), 70 A.D., Titus took the upper city of Jerusalem. According to Tacitus 600,000 Jews perished. According to Josephus the Romans killed 1,197,000 Jews in the siege and the aftermath of revolts. About 97,000 captives were sold as slaves, or died as unwilling gladiators in the Roman games. The city walls were destroyed. The Jewish War continued until the fall of Masada in 73 A.D. [2] So the Hebrews had till 73 A.D., to accept their Messiah. Major revelations stopped, and the canonical books of the New Testament were set. Continuing revelation was through the Holy Spirit which revealed the truthfulness of the gospel to those who earnestly sought. He knowing the Hebrews would not accept their Messiah, has fulfilled His promise to give His light unto the Gentiles in the latter days. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Luke 13:34-5.

So where did the Jews say as a whole "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord?" They didn't, and that is why Jerusalem was destroyed. So they did not see Him again according to His own word, and there has been no second coming.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Rev,

I just want to announce to you that I have become a grandpa. Click the camera icon next to my avatar and see a pic of my newborn granddaughter Raven (born June 21).

 

[RevelationTestament]

Rev,

I just want to announce to you that I have become a grandpa. Click the camera icon next to my avatar and see a pic of my newborn granddaughter Raven (born June 21).

yeah I saw that on another thread... forgot to tell you congrats
I hear vicarious fatherhood is a wonderful thing!!! (but I'm not ready LOL)

 

[parousia70]

So where did the Jews say as a whole "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord?" They didn't, and that is why Jerusalem was destroyed. So they did not see Him again according to His own word, and there has been no second coming.

Could you furthur define what you mean by "Jews as a whole" for us?

Is that every Jew from all time living or dead?

Or only the multitude of Jews living at one time?

Or only the believing remnant of all time?

The believing remnant of a certain time?

Only Jews IN ISRAEL perhaps?

I never can tell what people mean when they say "Jews as a whole, or Israel as a whole" - so many people hold very different definitions of what that is exactly, it'd be helpful to know what yours is.
Thanks!

 

[Jack Terrence]

So where did the Jews say as a whole "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord?" They didn't, and that is why Jerusalem was destroyed. So they did not see Him again according to His own word, and there has been no second coming.

First, it says NOTHING about the Jews as a whole. Jesus was speaking about His own generation.

Second, Jesus said, "all these things hsall come upon this generation" (His own generation).

Third, the verb is conditional. Jesus said, "You may not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.' "

 

[RevelationTestament]

First, it says NOTHING about the Jews as a whole. Jesus was speaking about His own generation.

Second, Jesus said, "all these things hsall come upon this generation" (His own generation).

Third, the verb is conditional. Jesus said, "You may not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.' "

So what is the preterist response to Matthew 24-25? Do they maintain that the gospel was preached to the whole world and so the end was in 70 yrs?
As for Jesus' words being conditional, yes they were conditioned upon the Jews saying blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. They didn't which is why the city was destroyed. The fact that one day they will say it tho is not conditional. And the fact that he will come again is not conditional. Further, I have explained "this generation" as being a generation of the earth, and not the people. Jesus spoke this way about the re-generation. He was not speaking of a generation of our people but of the earth obviously.