Europe Is Now Alone (well, with US guarantees)

[mark46]

These situations are the ebb and flow of history. Over 100 years ago the US became part of a strong alliance with Europe. Since WWII, this alliance and codependence has resulted in the greatest golden age of world improvement ever. This has especially true since Reagan moved more and more toward increased international trade.
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Trump ended this alliance in 2 months. Let's be fair. We should have understood that Trump favored Putin over NATO and the EU. He certainly has told us often enough.

Germany and Poland (and the rest of Europe) will immediately start spending trillions and mobilizing and increase their military forces. Of course, Europe has more men under arms than we do, a larger economy and a larger population. Now, they understand that they need to be responsible for their own nuclear protection. As the new leader in Germany has said, all Europe needs is time (and a way to develop anti-missile capability and better intelligence.
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To be clear, there still will be lots of trade deals and lots of military weapons. After all, we are the arms dealer for the world. But the expectation that the US will actually send troops in Russia invaded a NATO ally is simply gone. A US president might CHOOSE to support Europe against an invasion by Russia, but the treaty obligation means very little,

Of course, Canada, has already chosen to support Europe. They surely will be part of any post-NATO alliance.
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BTW, I wish those in Taiwan and South Korea (and even Japan) the best of luck. At very least, Japan will need to re-arm, and South Korea will need to secure nuclear weapons.

 

[Vambram]

Let's be fair. We should have understood that Trump favored Putin over NATO and the EU. He certainly has told us often enough.

This is absolutely not factual at all.

 

[Merrill]

The US has not pulled out of NATO, despite the hysterical reporting by the MSM. We still sell lots of arms to Europe, and are committed to that region. Trump has indicated that he wants a peace deal to end the Ukrainian conflict, and that he wants European countries to start paying for their own militaries

the days of the US paying for the defense of France, Germany, etc., so those countries can operate welfare states with universal healthcare, are over. There will be fairness going forward

and all this hand-wringing and crying about how hundreds of billions needs to be spent to defend Western Europe against Putin is a bunch of noise. Germany is not going to rebuild the Wehrmacht, and France isn't going to start marching a Grand Army through Europe. These countries do not have the funds or the soldiers.

and Putin has absolutely no intention of marching into any NATO state. He isn't crazy

 

[Vambram]

The US has not pulled out of NATO, despite the hysterical reporting by the MSM. We still sell lots of arms to Europe, and are committed to that region. Trump has indicated that he wants a peace deal to end the Ukrainian conflict, and that he wants European countries to start paying for their own militaries

the days of the US paying for the defense of France, Germany, etc., so those countries can operate welfare states with universal healthcare, are over. There will be fairness going forward

and all this hand-wringing and crying about how hundreds of billions needs to be spent to defend Western Europe against Putin is a bunch of noise. Germany is not going to rebuild the Wehrmacht, and France isn't going to start marching a Grand Army through Europe. These countries do not have the funds or the soldiers.

and Putin has absolutely no intention of marching into any NATO state. He isn't crazy

Amen, brother. I could not have said this better, myself.

 

[mark46]

The US has not pulled out of NATO, despite the hysterical reporting by the MSM. We still sell lots of arms to Europe, and are committed to that region. Trump has indicated that he wants a peace deal to end the Ukrainian conflict, and that he wants European countries to start paying for their own militaries

the days of the US paying for the defense of France, Germany, etc., so those countries can operate welfare states with universal healthcare, are over. There will be fairness going forward

and all this hand-wringing and crying about how hundreds of billions needs to be spent to defend Western Europe against Putin is a bunch of noise. Germany is not going to rebuild the Wehrmacht, and France isn't going to start marching a Grand Army through Europe. These countries do not have the funds or the soldiers.

and Putin has absolutely no intention of marching into any NATO state. He isn't crazy

1) No, we haven't pulled out of NATO. I didn't say that we did. Your response was that we will still sell them arms. Trump would sell arms to Russia if they had the money. My point is that Europe now understands that they cannot count on the US to come to fight for Europe if they are attacked. After all, the only time NATO had invoked that part of the treat was to help the US after 911.

2) Europe has more men under arms than the US, with a larger economy, and more people. They can indeed defend themselves, given some time. Europe has met several times. Poland is already increased its readiness and already spends over 4% of GDP on Defense. Germany is committing lots of money to defense and to infrastructure. They will all greatly increase their production of weapons. The UK and France will provide the nuclear shield (they would prefer that Germany not be forced to have nuclear weapons),

Poland and Estonia already spend more as a percentage of GDP than the 3.38% spent by the US. I expect Germany and the UK to pass that number this year and France next year. Others will still need to choose how much to increase. As long as the US is willing to continue to sell them missiles and intelligence technnology, they will be fine. However, there is ZERO guarantee that the US will sell Europe their best weapons. Europe will need to upgrade their own missile technology, and improve their intelligence architecture. And yes, theymay need other allies, Israel comes to mind.

3) NATO countries aren't next. There are still non-Nato countries and regions of other countries for Russia to conquer. But, yes, Putin is indeed crazy. BTW, if he didn't believe the US would fight, why wouldn't he attack?
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[Laodicean60]

This has especially true since Reagan moved more and more toward increased international trade.

Trump criticized the trade practices back then; this isn't new.

Trump ended this alliance in 2 months.

Only if you consider the USA stopping handouts as leaving NATO, all the other fear is a delusion.

Europe has more men under arms than the US, with a larger economy, and more people.

Then why haven't NATO countries fulfilled their promise of 2% since 2014? Because they were on the money cows tit for so long.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

the days of the US paying for the defense of France, Germany, etc., so those countries can operate welfare states with universal healthcare, are over. There will be fairness going forward

I've heard Americans often say, "America pays for EU defense." Can you explain how? If America withdraws from NATO, how would it save money? Your post lacks factual backing.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Trump ended this alliance in 2 months. Let's be fair. We should have understood that Trump favored Putin over NATO and the EU. He certainly has told us often enough.

Cite ONE time President Trump has stated he favors Putin over NATO and the EU.

Either that or please remove the error.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I've heard Americans often say, "America pays for EU defense." Can you explain how? If America withdraws from NATO, how would it save money? Your post lacks factual backing.

Please cite anywhere that American is going to withdraw from EU defense - your post also lacks factual backing.

 

[trophy33]

Then why haven't NATO countries fulfilled their promise of 2% since 2014? Because they were on the money cows tit for so long.

1. The 2% since 2014 was a guideline, not an obligation.
2. Do you remember what happened in the last decade? For example COVID. Or sanctions against Russia. Yeah, you can guess right - it cost a lot of money.

On one hand you are always talking about the Europe being economically dead, the EU being on the brink of collapse and on the other hand you expect Europe to spend astronomical amounts on armies (and on the weapons you are selling).

And now, on the top of all of it, you even plan to wage a trade war against the EU since April.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

1) No, we haven't pulled out of NATO. I didn't say that we did. Your response was that we will still sell them arms. Trump would sell arms to Russia if they had the money. My point is that Europe now understands that they cannot count on the US to come to fight for Europe if they are attacked. After all, the only time NATO had invoked that part of the treat was to help the US after 911.

2) Europe has more men under arms than the US, with a larger economy, and more people. They can indeed defend themselves, given some time. Europe has met several times. Poland is already increased its readiness and already spends over 4% of GDP on Defense. Germany is committing lots of money to defense and to infrastructure. They will all greatly increase their production of weapons. The UK and France will provide the nuclear shield (they would prefer that Germany not be forced to have nuclear weapons),

Poland and Estonia already spend more as a percentage of GDP than the 3.38% spent by the US. I expect Germany and the UK to pass that number this year and France next year. Others will still need to choose how much to increase. As long as the US is willing to continue to sell them missiles and intelligence technnology, they will be fine. However, there is ZERO guarantee that the US will sell Europe their best weapons. Europe will need to upgrade their own missile technology, and improve their intelligence architecture. And yes, theymay need other allies, Israel comes to mind.

3) NATO countries aren't next. There are still non-Nato countries and regions of other countries for Russia to conquer. But, yes, Putin is indeed crazy. BTW, if he didn't believe the US would fight, why wouldn't he attack?
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NATO will remain, and the U.S. will not withdraw or be expelled. However, it will become a ceremonial organization.

Critics of President Trump often focus on his policies. However, it is not solely President Trump's policy, as 40% of Americans do not want the United States to be involved in Europe or any other war. The Ronald Reagan party, which believed in peace through strength, no longer adheres to that philosophy.

40% of Americans believe that the United States should withdraw from international affairs and adopt a policy of isolationism. They think the country can be prosperous and peaceful if it does not get involved in other nations' matters. This perspective similar with views held 24 years ago, when some liberals believed that U.S. non-involvement in the Middle East would prevent terrorist attacks on the country.

The potential risk for the United States is that if Europe allocates 1 trillion USD annually to its defense budget, which exceed combined expenditure of China, Russia, India, Iran, Pakistan, and all other US adversaries, within five years, Europe could become a more significant adversary to the United States than the rest of the world combined.

Americans who advocate for leaving Europe may not fully understand a future scenario where Europe, with multiple nuclear powers and the second-largest economy in the world, becomes an adversary of the US. The situation could become even more complex if Canada joins European alliance, resulting in the US sharing a 5,000-mile border with an adversarial country.

 

[Laodicean60]

I've heard Americans often say, "America pays for EU defense. Can you explain how?

By this statement, you haven't researched how America pays for EU defense. Would we need a navy as big as ours if NATO helped the USA patrol the waters? How many NATO navies are helping against the Houthis? Overseas deployment also costs us huge amounts of money.

Why is there a short memory in politics? Because all this has been spun one way or the other on many threads.

 

[7thKeeper]

Then why haven't NATO countries fulfilled their promise of 2% since 2014? Because they were on the money cows tit for so long.

The only NATO countries of note (and I agree they need a good fingerpointing for this) that are below 2% are Italy and Spain. Sorry Luxembourg, considering your size, whether you're above or below doesn't really matter. Every other "major" nation is above 2% and a few spending more than the US. So... You only aiming this at Italy and Spain or have you actually ever bothered to look up the defense spendings?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Please cite anywhere that American is going to withdraw from EU defense - your post also lacks factual backing.

My next-door neighbor was speaking to me yesterday while standing under a large sign saying MAGA. Would you like me to ask him to repeat what he told me, record it, and send it to you?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

By this statement, you haven't researched how America pays for EU defense. Would we need a navy as big as ours if NATO helped the USA patrol the waters? How many NATO navies are helping against the Houthis? Overseas deployment also costs us huge amounts of money.

Why is there a short memory in politics? Because all this has been spun one way or the other on many threads.

Only way for achieving cost savings is by reducing the size of the United States Armed Forces.



If the United States were to leave NATO, we would need to significantly expand our military capabilities. The 34 countries that are currently our allies would become adversaries, resulting in a considerable increase in defense costs.

 

[Always in His Presence]

My next-door neighbor was speaking to me yesterday while standing under a large sign saying MAGA. Would you like me to ask him to repeat what he told me, record it, and send it to you?

Oh, your neighbor said so.... unless your neighbor is the Secretary of State - their opinion means ZERO.

 

[Always in His Presence]

NATO will remain, and the U.S. will not withdraw or be expelled. However, it will become a ceremonial organization.

If the United States were to leave NATO, we would need to significantly expand our military capabilities.

which is it?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Only way for achieving cost savings is by reducing the size of the United States Armed Forces.

Absolutely incorrect - reducing spending system wide and reducing the size of the government would achieve cost savings. Bearing in Mind our President has repeated state they will NOT cut Medicare, Medicaid or SSI.

 

[wing2000]

Cite ONE time President Trump has stated he favors Putin over NATO and the EU.

Either that or please remove the error.

His actions speak for themselves.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Oh, your neighbor said so.... unless your neighbor is the Secretary of State - their opinion means ZERO.

When President Trump nominated Marco Rubio as Secretary of State, I was pleased and relieved. I believe Secretary Rubio's views on U.S. foreign policy align closely with mine.

I understand that Secretary Rubio is implementing President Trump's foreign policy, not his own.

I understand your concerns with my post. No, I am not suggesting the US is leaving NATO or withdrawing troops from Europe; I don't think that will ever happen. However, Europe will become self-reliant in defense, and as it becomes more independent, it will rely less on the US. Eventually, they may no longer be allies but adversaries. What concerns me is that many Americans do not fully understand the danger of the US finding Europe as an adversary instead of an ally.