EU to criminalise pro-life views

[ananda]

Efficiency and consistency in rule/law.
Cost effective.
Unified market / economy.
Easier to move goods and people from place to place.
Less bureaucracy.
...


To illustrate:
If you live in London in 2020, good luck with having your London based company construct a factory in Poland. Or if you breed cats, good luck exporting them to European mainland.

I'm sure it will be possible to do these things... However, I'ld like to say the pile of forms and administration you'll have to take care of compared to what you would have had to do in 2016 to accomplish the same. As well as the price tag it will come with.

Are we to all become automatons in the machine, then?

It seems to me that your support for centralized government is to bring efficiency to economic goals above all others, without little regard for any other values or priorities.

 

[Dave RP]

Efficiency and consistency in rule/law.
Cost effective.
Unified market / economy.
Easier to move goods and people from place to place.
Less bureaucracy.
...


To illustrate:
If you live in London in 2020, good luck with having your London based company construct a factory in Poland. Or if you breed cats, good luck exporting them to European mainland.

I'm sure it will be possible to do these things... However, I'ld like to say the pile of forms and administration you'll have to take care of compared to what you would have had to do in 2016 to accomplish the same. As well as the price tag it will come with.

But on the counter side of the coin, less local democracy, less accountability, less freedom. I don't think leaving the EU will be the disaster some are saying it will be, I voted remain but the EU, for many in the UK stands for a single European state rather than a collaborative group of individual nation states. We never wanted to be part of the greater European project with ever closer union so in that respect maybe it'll be better if we leave and you can carry on with the mission.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Are we to all become automatons in the machine, then?

Huh??

I'm completely stumped by this question - and not because it is a good question.
Rather, cause I completely fail to see the point or the reasoning that lead upto that question, based on the post I made.

By the way: the answer is "no" and I have no clue why you asked that particular question.

It seems to me that your support for centralized government is to bring efficiency to economic goals above all others, without little regard for any other values or priorities.

Isn't the primary role of government to provide citizens with a "platform" for economic activity and order in general?

I am at a loss what your actual objection to my post is.

 

[DogmaHunter]

But on the counter side of the coin, less local democracy, less accountability, less freedom.

How so?

I'll take my own country as an example: Belgium.

It used to be "just Belgium" and life was okay.
Then we joined hands with the Netherlands and Luxemburg: the "benelux" and life got better.
Then the forerunner of the EU was born, made primarily from "old european" countries and life got better again.
In today's "big" EU, life is again better as opposed to before it.

I don't have "less" freedom today. I have MORE freedom. I can jump in my car and drive 1500 km's south for example. I don't need any special visa's or special currencies or any of that. I don't require a "special" driver's license that is also legit in those other countries.
I can find a job in France or the Netherlands and it is not a problem at all. I can buy goods in Germany and it makes no difference as opposed to buying goods in Belgium

All these things required special preparation / rules etc back in the days.
My every-day life definatly has become easier thanks to this "globalisation".

I don't think leaving the EU will be the disaster some are saying it will be

You think wrongly, I'm afraid. It will be bad for both sides, but the UK will be the worse of.
One thing that has become VERY clear during the negotiations, is how gravely unprepared and ill-informed the UK "leave" politicians really are.

People like to diss the EU for all the things that are not optimal or indeed simply bad. But they tend to forget or simply not see all the advantages and stuff that, by now, most of us take completely for granted. For decades, such things have been taken for granted. The average company didn't have to think twice about opening up a branch on EU mainland or vice versa for example.

Now, they will face all the "international" regulations that non-eu members have to face. And it will hurt. A lot.

Sure, we will all pull through. It's not like our countries will stop existing.
But the idea that either of us will be better of, especially economically, is simply delusional.

I voted remain but the EU, for many in the UK stands for a single European state rather than a collaborative group of individual nation states. We never wanted to be part of the greater European project with ever closer union so in that respect maybe it'll be better if we leave and you can carry on with the mission.

Frankly.... I'm still not convinced that the Brexit will actually happen.

 

[mark kennedy]

That was the whole thing with Brexit, there were issues with immigration but England got a little tired of Brussels in their business. They never switch over to the Euro ad England has always been pretty independent. The EU. Put billions into eastern Europe after the collapse of the Soviet Union, it was a great thing. Not there are more nationalistic and protectionist attitude. The idea that the EU might prohibit prolife activism might not be such a good idea. The Last time I checked there were a lot of Catholics in Europe.

 

[ananda]

Huh??

I'm completely stumped by this question - and not because it is a good question.
Rather, cause I completely fail to see the point or the reasoning that lead upto that question, based on the post I made.

By the way: the answer is "no" and I have no clue why you asked that particular question.

Isn't the primary role of government to provide citizens with a "platform" for economic activity and order in general?

I am at a loss what your actual objection to my post is.

My point was that, all of the "positives" of centralized government which you listed, are only positive for those who value your specific economic goals.

I value things like freedom of choice, the ability to pay off and not simply discharge debts, and economic stability (instead of the need for infinite economic growth). Your EU model destroys these things, forcing us to become cogs in the system instead. (Of course, this is not only levelled at the EU system, but pretty much the whole Western economic system).

 

[Dave RP]

How so?

I'll take my own country as an example: Belgium.

It used to be "just Belgium" and life was okay.
Then we joined hands with the Netherlands and Luxemburg: the "benelux" and life got better.
Then the forerunner of the EU was born, made primarily from "old european" countries and life got better again.
In today's "big" EU, life is again better as opposed to before it.

I don't have "less" freedom today. I have MORE freedom. I can jump in my car and drive 1500 km's south for example. I don't need any special visa's or special currencies or any of that. I don't require a "special" driver's license that is also legit in those other countries.
I can find a job in France or the Netherlands and it is not a problem at all. I can buy goods in Germany and it makes no difference as opposed to buying goods in Belgium

All these things required special preparation / rules etc back in the days.
My every-day life definatly has become easier thanks to this "globalisation".



You think wrongly, I'm afraid. It will be bad for both sides, but the UK will be the worse of.
One thing that has become VERY clear during the negotiations, is how gravely unprepared and ill-informed the UK "leave" politicians really are.

People like to diss the EU for all the things that are not optimal or indeed simply bad. But they tend to forget or simply not see all the advantages and stuff that, by now, most of us take completely for granted. For decades, such things have been taken for granted. The average company didn't have to think twice about opening up a branch on EU mainland or vice versa for example.

Now, they will face all the "international" regulations that non-eu members have to face. And it will hurt. A lot.

Sure, we will all pull through. It's not like our countries will stop existing.
But the idea that either of us will be better of, especially economically, is simply delusional.



Frankly.... I'm still not convinced that the Brexit will actually happen.

The whole debate has been filled with lies and exaggerations from all sides. Globalisation and mass migration has left people at the lower end feeling left behind.

For all it’s good, to many the EU feels like a huge conglomerate acting for their own political ends.

With unemployment in Spain at 20%, Greece virtually bankrupt, Portugal with mass unemployment it would be a ludicrous over exaggeration to say the EU is an unqualified success.

We are leaving so we all have to make the best of it, for all our sakes but if not, we’ll survive.

 

[Dave RP]

How so?

I'll take my own country as an example: Belgium.

It used to be "just Belgium" and life was okay.
Then we joined hands with the Netherlands and Luxemburg: the "benelux" and life got better.
Then the forerunner of the EU was born, made primarily from "old european" countries and life got better again.
In today's "big" EU, life is again better as opposed to before it.

I don't have "less" freedom today. I have MORE freedom. I can jump in my car and drive 1500 km's south for example. I don't need any special visa's or special currencies or any of that. I don't require a "special" driver's license that is also legit in those other countries.
I can find a job in France or the Netherlands and it is not a problem at all. I can buy goods in Germany and it makes no difference as opposed to buying goods in Belgium

All these things required special preparation / rules etc back in the days.
My every-day life definatly has become easier thanks to this "globalisation".



You think wrongly, I'm afraid. It will be bad for both sides, but the UK will be the worse of.
One thing that has become VERY clear during the negotiations, is how gravely unprepared and ill-informed the UK "leave" politicians really are.

People like to diss the EU for all the things that are not optimal or indeed simply bad. But they tend to forget or simply not see all the advantages and stuff that, by now, most of us take completely for granted. For decades, such things have been taken for granted. The average company didn't have to think twice about opening up a branch on EU mainland or vice versa for example.

Now, they will face all the "international" regulations that non-eu members have to face. And it will hurt. A lot.

Sure, we will all pull through. It's not like our countries will stop existing.
But the idea that either of us will be better of, especially economically, is simply delusional.



Frankly.... I'm still not convinced that the Brexit will actually happen.

 

[Dave RP]

Your life may have got easier, but the huge influx of cheap EU workers from the newly joined eastern European countries has driven down wages and affected the UK working man. The EU should have thought much more carefully about the impact of introducing millions of workers prepared to work for half of current wage rates, they didn't because dogma trumped common sense.

Additionally the Euro has impoverished half of Southern Europe - Greece and Spain (for example) have unemployment rates of 17-21%, France, Portugal and Italy have unemployment rates double that of the UK, some of those countries needed to devalue their currency but they couldn't because of the Euro.

The idea that the Eu is an unqualified success is just delusional.

To say we wont be able to work abroad is nonsense, I have worked outside the Eu, my daughter currently works in the US, once things settle down it will all be ok again. The UK's second biggest trading partner is the US, last I looked they weren't in the EU.

Yes leaving will be tough for a bit, I wish we hadn't voted leave but the EU shows no sign of change and still want full integration, which most people in the UK do not want.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The whole debate has been filled with lies and exaggerations from all sides. Globalisation and mass migration has left people at the lower end feeling left behind.

Which lower end, exactly?
Also, keep in mind that globalization and migration policies, aren't the same thing.

For all it’s good, to many the EU feels like a huge conglomerate acting for their own political ends.

People might feel that way. But is it so? I say, it isn't.

With unemployment in Spain at 20%, Greece virtually bankrupt, Portugal with mass unemployment it would be a ludicrous over exaggeration to say the EU is an unqualified success.

None of these things were caused by the EU and rather were the result of internal failing management. If anything actually, the EU has been preventing the actual bankrupcy of greece.

It's actually kind of ironic because a much stronger EU, ie: with more influence/authority over individual member states, could have actually prevented much of that misery, by regulating certain things.

We are leaving so we all have to make the best of it, for all our sakes but if not, we’ll survive.

We'll survive allright. But we won't be better off. Au contraire.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Your life may have got easier, but the huge influx of cheap EU workers from the newly joined eastern European countries has driven down wages and affected the UK working man. The EU should have thought much more carefully about the impact of introducing millions of workers prepared to work for half of current wage rates, they didn't because dogma trumped common sense.

Do you actually have any data to support this?
Because when I'm renovating my home, polish construction workers aren't exactly "half the price" as opposed to Belgian construction workers...

Having said that... I know quite a few (native) construction workers. Most of them rich.
And those that aren't rich, work for those rich guys (and they earn quite a good living).

Additionally the Euro has impoverished half of Southern Europe - Greece and Spain (for example) have unemployment rates of 17-21%, France, Portugal and Italy have unemployment rates double that of the UK, some of those countries needed to devalue their currency but they couldn't because of the Euro.

Please inform yourself...
Take Spain, an easy example...

The crisis there is 100% their own fault. It's pure mismanagment. This is not "because of" the EU. It is "in spite of" the EU.

https://blog.oup.com/2014/05/five-reasons-why-spain-has-stubbornly-high-unemployment-rate-26/

The idea that the Eu is an unqualified success is just delusional.

I didn't call it an "unqualified" success.
What is even more delusional, is the idea that european countries would be better of by leaving it.

Nobody is saying that the EU is perfect as it is.

To say we wont be able to work abroad is nonsense, I have worked outside the Eu, my daughter currently works in the US, once things settle down it will all be ok again.

I didn't say it couldn't be done. I said it would be a lot more dificult / complex. It would also be more expensive as it would require a lot more administration and bureaucracy.

If you are going to pretend here that "it's just as easy", then I can no longer take this conversation seriously.

The UK's second biggest trading partner is the US, last I looked they weren't in the EU.

And the US is amazing right?
The United States.

That's where the EU is heading. It's a lot more complex off course, even only because of the language barriers. But that's where it's heading.

"together, we are strong".

ps: your trading deals with the US are a result of EU membership.
None of these will be in place after the UK exits the EU. At that point, technically and lawfully, the US would not longer be a trade partner. You're gonna have to renegotiate everything. And this time, you'll sit alone at that table, facing the giant US. Whereas before, you had the weight of entire Europe.

If Trump remains president till then, I also predict that you'll get quite a bad deal as well.

Yes leaving will be tough for a bit, I wish we hadn't voted leave but the EU shows no sign of change and still want full integration, which most people in the UK do not want.

I don't buy that. I think it's more that a handfull of nationalistic politicians hate the EU for all kinds of different reasons and then set out on an extremely dishonest campaign of propaganda. With "leave" vote as a result, based on lies lies lies.

 

[Dave RP]

Do you actually have any data to support this?
Because when I'm renovating my home, polish construction workers aren't exactly "half the price" as opposed to Belgian construction workers...

Having said that... I know quite a few (native) construction workers. Most of them rich.
And those that aren't rich, work for those rich guys (and they earn quite a good living).


Please inform yourself...
Take Spain, an easy example...

The crisis there is 100% their own fault. It's pure mismanagment. This is not "because of" the EU. It is "in spite of" the EU.

https://blog.oup.com/2014/05/five-reasons-why-spain-has-stubbornly-high-unemployment-rate-26/



I didn't call it an "unqualified" success.
What is even more delusional, is the idea that european countries would be better of by leaving it.

Nobody is saying that the EU is perfect as it is.



I didn't say it couldn't be done. I said it would be a lot more dificult / complex. It would also be more expensive as it would require a lot more administration and bureaucracy.

If you are going to pretend here that "it's just as easy", then I can no longer take this conversation seriously.



And the US is amazing right?
The United States.

That's where the EU is heading. It's a lot more complex off course, even only because of the language barriers. But that's where it's heading.

"together, we are strong".

ps: your trading deals with the US are a result of EU membership.
None of these will be in place after the UK exits the EU. At that point, technically and lawfully, the US would not longer be a trade partner. You're gonna have to renegotiate everything. And this time, you'll sit alone at that table, facing the giant US. Whereas before, you had the weight of entire Europe.

If Trump remains president till then, I also predict that you'll get quite a bad deal as well.



I don't buy that. I think it's more that a handfull of nationalistic politicians hate the EU for all kinds of different reasons and then set out on an extremely dishonest campaign of propaganda. With "leave" vote as a result, based on lies lies lies.[/QUOTE

The idea of a "United States of Europe" fills many people with horror. Remember the US had to have a full blown civil war to sort out their kind of union, and the EU looking for expansion and a federal Europe will create a nationalist backlash. The EU was sold to the UK public as a free trade area consisting of democratic nation states, the erosion of national decision making is what upset most British leave voters.

Also I was saying that the economic crisis in Spain and Greece was exacerbated by the Euro currency, a political decision which flew in the face of common sense and has assisted in impoverishing those countries.

Also I take issue with you on the idea that more central control of states would have been a good thing, that is a reduction of democracy and local self determination which has not been out to the public for approval.

Or are you in the "shut up peasants, we know what good for you" camp.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Then lock me up if that's a responsible way of spending the tax payers money. Sheltering and feeding people (in jail) because they love unborn babies...
Bizarre!

Go away Satan, depart from me enemy of God!

 

[DogmaHunter]

The idea of a "United States of Europe" fills many people with horror.

So? That doesn't say anything about it being for better or worse.
Back when the US was created, it filled "many people with horror" as well. In fact, a war was fought over it. People are afraid of change, it's always been like that.

I'll also note that in my experience, people "against" the EU are consistently pretty badly informed about its advantages and only know about half-truths concerning disadvantages that have been fed to them by nationalist right wing propaganda.

Just like all the nonsense that Farage has been spewing during his dishonest "leave" campaign.

Remember the US had to have a full blown civil war to sort out their kind of union

Yes. I like to think that thanks to modern education and widespread availability of information, would make such obstacles obsolete. But if this thread shows anything, it probably is that that is a bit too optismistic.

Nevertheless.... would you say that the US would have been better of as individual "sovereign" states today? I sure wouldn't.

, and the EU looking for expansion and a federal Europe will create a nationalist backlash.

Yep. That primitive tribal mentality definatly needs to make place for a new awareness.
Nationalistic tribal mentalities only leads to expensive division.

If we Europeans care about meaning something on the world stage versus giants like the US, China, Russia, etc... our only possible way forward is that of a united europe.

The EU was sold to the UK public as a free trade area consisting of democratic nation states, the erosion of national decision making is what upset most British leave voters.

That's not what I see. What I see is that the nay-sayers are upset based on nationalistic propaganda and a resistance of the future and modern times.

It's also noteworthy that if you take all those votes and split them up in 2 groups: 50+ of age and less then 50 years old, then you'll see that "leave" was a dominant vote for the older people. Young people massively voted to stay. So, if you wish to talk about democracy, let's talk about how the referendum made the UK exit the EU and that the people who will actually have to live with that future, are actually predominantly people who voted to stay.

Also I was saying that the economic crisis in Spain and Greece was exacerbated by the Euro currency

Which is not true.
The crisis in Spain is primarily due to mismanagement (as explained in that link I gave you) and the financial crisis in Greece actually is greatly intertwined with the financial crisis that spilled over from US banks and wall street into europe.

Also, crisises happen. It's the way it is. Or did you think that no european country would ever encounter any dificulties if the EU stopped existing?

Also, again I get the feeling here of how the focus is 100% on the things that go wrong, while the things that go right are completely ignored.

, a political decision which flew in the face of common sense and has assisted in impoverishing those countries.

Right, right... nevermind all the positive effects of one currency. Both in short and long term.
Let's just focus on one or two examples that in fact aren't really examples.

Also I take issue with you on the idea that more central control of states would have been a good thing, that is a reduction of democracy and local self determination which has not been out to the public for approval.

Americans don't seem to think that having a federal government and a US president, to be a reduction of their freedom.

The problem with this line of argumentation, is that it doesn't stop. By using such arguments, you can endlessly continue to scale down states, even to the point where every house in every street is its own state. ULTIMATE self-determinitation / freedom.

It's a shortsighted proposition with no end in sight.

It's what bothers me most about nationalists, separatists, anti-globalists. They always use that kind of reasoning and it makes no sense. Precisely because you can continue to use it into every shrinking "regions" with a central authority.

I'll refer to Belgium again.
There are quite a few nationalists / separatists here. Mostly right to extremely right wingers. The "hardcore" guys being straight up neo-nazi's.

These people typically hate the EU. They also hate Belgium. And they say they "love Flanders". They want Flanders to be an independent state and Belgium to stop existing.
You can also draw parallells with the whole Catalonia thingy in Spain.

It's a typical rant of "arguments":
- Flanders is the "rich" region and the "dutch" money flows from flanders to the french region via the federal government
- Flanders is "held hostage" by the federal government
- Flanders "can't decide its own fate"
- etc etc etc

Here's the problem... where does this stop?
Let's say we split Belgium and Flanders becomes independent. Then what?
What's to stop politicians from the province of Antwerp to take the exact same arguments and just replace "Flanders" with "Antwerp" and "Wallonie" with, let's say "Limburg".
Antwerp = financial center, one of the biggest ports of west europe, lots and lots of companies
Limburg = there's not much there. couple businesses, some farming,...

In the new reality of an independent Flanders, the exact same stuff arises. Now, it's Antwerp that is the "rich" reason. Now, it's money from Antwerp that flows to Limburg. And Antwerp "can't decide its own fate" - it needs to take West/east flanders, limburg, etc into account as well. Or it needs to abide by the rules set out by the government of Flanders.


So what then? A political movement to make the province Antwerp independent as well?
Now that it's reduced to just a province, the exact same game can be played with individual cities.

The argumentation, makes no sense.

Or are you in the "shut up peasants, we know what good for you" camp.

No. I'm more in the "don't be so naive and think for 2 seconds, will ya" camp.

Having said that.... Perhaps, yes. I'm of the opinion that not everything should be decided "democratically". Some things should not be decided by majority vote and should rather just be concluded from facts.

If we would decide everything by majority vote, then humanity would be extinct within 2 centuries. Because everyone would vote with his wallet, not necessarily based on truths and facts, by people who are qualified to draw such conclusions - who actually know what is going on and who understand the implications.

If "the masses" get to vote on everything, then not a single climate accord would be reached. Clean energy wouldn't be the priority. Pollution would increase.

The fact is, that in a lot of subjects, "the masses" simply aren't qualified to make certain decisions. In a lot of cases, maybe even most, the masses should never be given such power.

And I think that referendums like the brexit and catalonia are excellent examples to illustrate exactly that.

During the day of the vote, several reporters went out in the streets interviewing random people about their vote, their hopes and what they thought would be the actual result / consequences of the UK leaving the EU.

It was very painfull to see how utterly ill-informed most of them were. And the same was true for the voters and activists in Catalonia.

They scream, wave signs, riot and "follow" their dear leaders. But when asked what it is really all about and what the implications are, all you get is a long uncomfortable stare.




EDITY: I suddenly realised how mega utterly off topic this has become. sorry bout that.

 

[MyOwnSockPuppet]

EDITY: I suddenly realised how mega utterly off topic this has become. sorry bout that.

I shouldn't worry about it, moving away from talking about how the EU is going to ban pro-life views, presumably despite the Catholic majorities in Malta, Andorra, Croatia, Poland, Italy, Portugal, Ireland, Spain, Luxemburg, Slovakia, Belgium, France and Slovenia, any of which could veto, and together aren't much short of a majority, can't be a bad thing.

 

[Dave RP]

So? That doesn't say anything about it being for better or worse.
Back when the US was created, it filled "many people with horror" as well. In fact, a war was fought over it. People are afraid of change, it's always been like that.

I'll also note that in my experience, people "against" the EU are consistently pretty badly informed about its advantages and only know about half-truths concerning disadvantages that have been fed to them by nationalist right wing propaganda.

Just like all the nonsense that Farage has been spewing during his dishonest "leave" campaign.



Yes. I like to think that thanks to modern education and widespread availability of information, would make such obstacles obsolete. But if this thread shows anything, it probably is that that is a bit too optismistic.

Nevertheless.... would you say that the US would have been better of as individual "sovereign" states today? I sure wouldn't.



Yep. That primitive tribal mentality definatly needs to make place for a new awareness.
Nationalistic tribal mentalities only leads to expensive division.

If we Europeans care about meaning something on the world stage versus giants like the US, China, Russia, etc... our only possible way forward is that of a united europe.



That's not what I see. What I see is that the nay-sayers are upset based on nationalistic propaganda and a resistance of the future and modern times.

It's also noteworthy that if you take all those votes and split them up in 2 groups: 50+ of age and less then 50 years old, then you'll see that "leave" was a dominant vote for the older people. Young people massively voted to stay. So, if you wish to talk about democracy, let's talk about how the referendum made the UK exit the EU and that the people who will actually have to live with that future, are actually predominantly people who voted to stay.



Which is not true.
The crisis in Spain is primarily due to mismanagement (as explained in that link I gave you) and the financial crisis in Greece actually is greatly intertwined with the financial crisis that spilled over from US banks and wall street into europe.

Also, crisises happen. It's the way it is. Or did you think that no european country would ever encounter any dificulties if the EU stopped existing?

Also, again I get the feeling here of how the focus is 100% on the things that go wrong, while the things that go right are completely ignored.



Right, right... nevermind all the positive effects of one currency. Both in short and long term.
Let's just focus on one or two examples that in fact aren't really examples.



Americans don't seem to think that having a federal government and a US president, to be a reduction of their freedom.

The problem with this line of argumentation, is that it doesn't stop. By using such arguments, you can endlessly continue to scale down states, even to the point where every house in every street is its own state. ULTIMATE self-determinitation / freedom.

It's a shortsighted proposition with no end in sight.

It's what bothers me most about nationalists, separatists, anti-globalists. They always use that kind of reasoning and it makes no sense. Precisely because you can continue to use it into every shrinking "regions" with a central authority.

I'll refer to Belgium again.
There are quite a few nationalists / separatists here. Mostly right to extremely right wingers. The "hardcore" guys being straight up neo-nazi's.

These people typically hate the EU. They also hate Belgium. And they say they "love Flanders". They want Flanders to be an independent state and Belgium to stop existing.
You can also draw parallells with the whole Catalonia thingy in Spain.

It's a typical rant of "arguments":
- Flanders is the "rich" region and the "dutch" money flows from flanders to the french region via the federal government
- Flanders is "held hostage" by the federal government
- Flanders "can't decide its own fate"
- etc etc etc

Here's the problem... where does this stop?
Let's say we split Belgium and Flanders becomes independent. Then what?
What's to stop politicians from the province of Antwerp to take the exact same arguments and just replace "Flanders" with "Antwerp" and "Wallonie" with, let's say "Limburg".
Antwerp = financial center, one of the biggest ports of west europe, lots and lots of companies
Limburg = there's not much there. couple businesses, some farming,...

In the new reality of an independent Flanders, the exact same stuff arises. Now, it's Antwerp that is the "rich" reason. Now, it's money from Antwerp that flows to Limburg. And Antwerp "can't decide its own fate" - it needs to take West/east flanders, limburg, etc into account as well. Or it needs to abide by the rules set out by the government of Flanders.


So what then? A political movement to make the province Antwerp independent as well?
Now that it's reduced to just a province, the exact same game can be played with individual cities.

The argumentation, makes no sense.



No. I'm more in the "don't be so naive and think for 2 seconds, will ya" camp.

Having said that.... Perhaps, yes. I'm of the opinion that not everything should be decided "democratically". Some things should not be decided by majority vote and should rather just be concluded from facts.

If we would decide everything by majority vote, then humanity would be extinct within 2 centuries. Because everyone would vote with his wallet, not necessarily based on truths and facts, by people who are qualified to draw such conclusions - who actually know what is going on and who understand the implications.

If "the masses" get to vote on everything, then not a single climate accord would be reached. Clean energy wouldn't be the priority. Pollution would increase.

The fact is, that in a lot of subjects, "the masses" simply aren't qualified to make certain decisions. In a lot of cases, maybe even most, the masses should never be given such power.

And I think that referendums like the brexit and catalonia are excellent examples to illustrate exactly that.

During the day of the vote, several reporters went out in the streets interviewing random people about their vote, their hopes and what they thought would be the actual result / consequences of the UK leaving the EU.

It was very painfull to see how utterly ill-informed most of them were. And the same was true for the voters and activists in Catalonia.

They scream, wave signs, riot and "follow" their dear leaders. But when asked what it is really all about and what the implications are, all you get is a long uncomfortable stare.




EDITY: I suddenly realised how mega utterly off topic this has become. sorry bout that.

Yes very off topic but enjoyable nonetheless.

Democracy allows stupid people to vote for stupid things but is the least worst form of Government, your view seems to be a benign dictatorship is best, but they never happen. Dictatorships inevitably become corrupt.

End of discussion as it is off topic, enjoy your weekend.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Democracy allows stupid people to vote for stupid things but is the least worst form of Government, your view seems to be a benign dictatorship is best, but they never happen. Dictatorships inevitably become corrupt.

End of discussion as it is off topic, enjoy your weekend.

Sorry, I have psychological problems with leaving things unanswered

No, I'm not advocating a dictatorship here, benign or otherwise.
What I am saying, is that not everything should be up for majority vote, because not everything is some kind of arbitrary decision.

In a lot of cases, there simply is a correct and a wrong way to go. Some things simply are a matter of fact and logic. Other things require deep knowledge and understanding to be able to make an informed decision.

What does average Joe from around the corner really know about the economical and sociological implications of leaving the EU? I say that the vast majority of citizens actually have no clue. They are not qualified to make this kind of a decision.

I'm not saying we should give our politicians dictatorship powers.
Rather, there should be some kind of panels or commissions, made up of independent people with actual classifications and not affiliated to any particular company or political party. And they should make the decisions concerning their fields of expertise.

Let's take an easier example to illustrate...
Take the climate accords and the fact that Trump decided by himself to pull out.

I mean seriously... I happen to think that Trump is...let's just say, not that smart. But nevermind that. A thing he definatly is not, is a climate scientist. He does NOT have the qualifications, expertise or understanding required to make such decision.

It is not logical at all, that a guy like him can simply make such a decision.

Yes, I agree that democracy is "the best system" that has ever been tried. But it's far from perfect. And we clearly have come to a point where it no longer is sufficient. Or even works properly.

What used to be its strengths, has become its weaknesses.

I'm very convinced that, if we don't allow democracy to evolve further, we are simply going to dig our own graves. Because, yes, the masses are stupid, gullible and at the mercy of propaganda and misinformation.

 

[Dave RP]

Who decides what is up for majority voting and what goes to you committee?

I guess it’ll be people like you who “know” what’s best for the poor stupid people’s of Europe.

 

[ananda]

In a lot of cases, there simply is a correct and a wrong way to go. Some things simply are a matter of fact and logic. Other things require deep knowledge and understanding to be able to make an informed decision. What does average Joe from around the corner really know about the economical and sociological implications of leaving the EU? I say that the vast majority of citizens actually have no clue. They are not qualified to make this kind of a decision.

Who is qualified to speak authoritatively for me besides myself - for my needs, my desires, my values? How do you determine that X is more qualified or more informed than myself about my own needs?

 

[Landon Caeli]

I was referencing the EU itself - who voted to create it, in the first place? the People of Europe?

Germany