Ethics of Demanding Specific Content from Creatots

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,579
11,396
✟437,402.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
The current culture war in the US has caused a rather strange and in my opinion, unethical demand from creatives....

Identity specific content.

Right around the time that certain corners of the media were busy sharing celebrities for wearing native American costumes to Halloween parties and other types of accusations around "cultural appropriation" were rampant....another similar demand was being made.

"Give me the content that I think you should make...otherwise you're part of the problem"

On its face, this seemed to me like an obviously unreasonable and unethical demand to make of creators. By creators, I mean people who create entertainment content across a variety of mediums including authors, script writers, artists, directors, video game designers, etc.

Now, I think that criticism of content is perfectly valid....although if the criticism is that "more people of a particular race, gender, nationality, culture, sexuality, gender, age, etc weren't included" strikes me as a particularly shallow criticism....people are entitled to criticize whatever they like.

What I don't think people are entitled to do is demand someone create content with more people of a particular race, gender, sexuality, body type, etc....or they're somehow part of some "problem". This isn't a real problem, or a valid complaint, because the response to this is so obvious. If you want a particular kind of content....simply make it. If you don't like a particular type of content....don't support or buy it.

I can only imagine that this complaint/demand gets made simply because those making it are unable to succeed at making the content they want to see. While I've seen public debates over the ethics and morality of issues like cultural appropriation....I've never seen one over this issue.

That's not to say I don't understand the complaint if it affects someoneso income, for example. I can understand why a black actor would want to see more roles, even if I think it's a completely unethical demand to make. The more roles exist, the better their chances are to work.

The complaint however, has extended to some weird places....like the absence of LGBT characters in Game of Thrones (which has LGBT characters) or the way those characters died (in a fantasy book where characters regularly died gruesome deaths). The criticisms seemed to be more about the identity of the author than the content he created.

I'll grant that sometimes....the audiences' complaints about the inclusion of characters and their identities seemed shallow and childish as well. Obviously, no one's childhood was ruined by the all female reboot of Ghostbusters. It was a terrible movie built off the all female gimmick and it arguably ruined the careers of the female actors....but it wasn't bad because it had an all female cast. It was bad because the importance of the all female cast took precedence over it being entertaining....and it's hard to imagine that would have happened in the first place had such demands and complaints about content weren't made in the first place.

I had generally rolled my eyes at this identity driven nonsense until it ruined something I liked. I had considered The Last of Us to be one of the best stories in video games ever and a fantastic example of why video games should be considered art. The sequel had been long awaited by fans and even though it sold well....the reception from fans has been extremely poor. This is primarily because the very thing which made the original great (the story) was pushed aside to promote some pro-feminist pro-LGBT narrative. The original was my wife's favorite game....the sequel is so bad she hasn't finished it and dislikes even playing it. One of the primary advocates of this game ruining nonsense, Anita Sarkeesian, has been exposed for practically blackmailing a video game company into hiring her. She made a name for herself creating controversial and outrage in the "Gamergate" incident and is known for shaming companies like Blizzard into changing their games. One might be forgiven for thinking her motivations are driven by equality or equity or even exposing bigotry....but in reality, she's driven by money. Here's a message she sent to game creators recently....

"Video game designers! Let me help you avoid these kinds of mistakes. I want you to make the great games you're envisioning while appealing to a broader audience (and that includes not offending entire market segments)."

It appears her business model is....

1. Use social media to generate outrage/controversy for video game content related to identity and accuse creators of bigotry.
2. Offer her services as a paid "consultant" to "fix" issues related to content.
3. Inject someone else's work with her agenda driven content.
4. Repeat step 1.

I've begun to think that perhaps the reason creative works include a completely unnecessary asian female lesbian these days is so creators can simply avoid being shaken down by these charlatans using social media as a weapon.

What do you think? Is it ever ethical to demand that creators make the kind of content that someone wants or they're otherwise guilty of some kind of bigotry? Or do you, like me, find this complaint as always unethical since someone can always decide to support or not support content with their money....or simply create the content they want to see?

Thoughts?
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: bèlla

Strathos

No one important
Dec 11, 2012
12,663
6,531
God's Earth
✟263,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Is it 'demanding' or 'requesting'? And when you get down to it, isn't this all business? If you care about making money, it's only logical to produce what people want. If you open a restaurant in a town full of vegetarians, you probably won't get many customers if all of your dishes have meat in them.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,579
11,396
✟437,402.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Is it 'demanding' or 'requesting'?

They typically use the word "demand"....though I would argue whining is more appropriate.

And when you get down to it, isn't this all business?

No. Content creators are more like artists than businessmen. I suppose some creative content is driven more by market appeal than creativeness....like pop music. Asking an author to write the stories you want to read however, is an unreasonable request....he cannot possibly please everyone. He can however, write the story he wants to write.

If you care about making money, it's only logical to produce what people want.

If you want to make money, you shouldn't be an author. These demands are made of content creators after they're already successful. It's because the people complaining want their message to hit the largest possible audience. If it was about popularity or marketability, they would simply ask the successful to continue doing what they were already doing.

If you open a restaurant in a town full of vegetarians, you probably won't get many customers if all of your dishes have meat in them.

That's my point.
 
Upvote 0

Strathos

No one important
Dec 11, 2012
12,663
6,531
God's Earth
✟263,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
It might sound nice to imagine that artists and writers are above worrying about profit and only care about their own artistic integrity, but that's not how things work in the real world. Especially since you're talking about media like major video game franchises.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,579
11,396
✟437,402.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
It might sound nice to imagine that artists and writers are above worrying about profit and only care about their own artistic integrity, but that's not how things work in the real world.

I don't think they're above worrying about profit...

I'm saying the complaints aren't about profit. Does George RR Martin need to worry about what some specific group thinks about his work? Obviously not, he's already proven his writing is extremely profitable.

What validity does any complaint hold in regards to the profitability of his work?
 
Upvote 0

Strathos

No one important
Dec 11, 2012
12,663
6,531
God's Earth
✟263,276.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I don't think they're above worrying about profit...

I'm saying the complaints aren't about profit. Does George RR Martin need to worry about what some specific group thinks about his work? Obviously not, he's already proven his writing is extremely profitable.

What validity does any complaint hold in regards to the profitability of his work?

If his work was unpopular enough that it didn't sell, he would most likely change his style so it would. The public votes with their wallets.
 
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
38,984
9,400
✟380,249.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
The current culture war in the US has caused a rather strange and in my opinion, unethical demand from creatives....

Identity specific content.

Right around the time that certain corners of the media were busy sharing celebrities for wearing native American costumes to Halloween parties and other types of accusations around "cultural appropriation" were rampant....another similar demand was being made.

"Give me the content that I think you should make...otherwise you're part of the problem"

On its face, this seemed to me like an obviously unreasonable and unethical demand to make of creators. By creators, I mean people who create entertainment content across a variety of mediums including authors, script writers, artists, directors, video game designers, etc.

Now, I think that criticism of content is perfectly valid....although if the criticism is that "more people of a particular race, gender, nationality, culture, sexuality, gender, age, etc weren't included" strikes me as a particularly shallow criticism....people are entitled to criticize whatever they like.

What I don't think people are entitled to do is demand someone create content with more people of a particular race, gender, sexuality, body type, etc....or they're somehow part of some "problem". This isn't a real problem, or a valid complaint, because the response to this is so obvious. If you want a particular kind of content....simply make it. If you don't like a particular type of content....don't support or buy it.

I can only imagine that this complaint/demand gets made simply because those making it are unable to succeed at making the content they want to see. While I've seen public debates over the ethics and morality of issues like cultural appropriation....I've never seen one over this issue.

That's not to say I don't understand the complaint if it affects someoneso income, for example. I can understand why a black actor would want to see more roles, even if I think it's a completely unethical demand to make. The more roles exist, the better their chances are to work.

The complaint however, has extended to some weird places....like the absence of LGBT characters in Game of Thrones (which has LGBT characters) or the way those characters died (in a fantasy book where characters regularly died gruesome deaths). The criticisms seemed to be more about the identity of the author than the content he created.

I'll grant that sometimes....the audiences' complaints about the inclusion of characters and their identities seemed shallow and childish as well. Obviously, no one's childhood was ruined by the all female reboot of Ghostbusters. It was a terrible movie built off the all female gimmick and it arguably ruined the careers of the female actors....but it wasn't bad because it had an all female cast. It was bad because the importance of the all female cast took precedence over it being entertaining....and it's hard to imagine that would have happened in the first place had such demands and complaints about content weren't made in the first place.

I had generally rolled my eyes at this identity driven nonsense until it ruined something I liked. I had considered The Last of Us to be one of the best stories in video games ever and a fantastic example of why video games should be considered art. The sequel had been long awaited by fans and even though it sold well....the reception from fans has been extremely poor. This is primarily because the very thing which made the original great (the story) was pushed aside to promote some pro-feminist pro-LGBT narrative. The original was my wife's favorite game....the sequel is so bad she hasn't finished it and dislikes even playing it. One of the primary advocates of this game ruining nonsense, Anita Sarkeesian, has been exposed for practically blackmailing a video game company into hiring her. She made a name for herself creating controversial and outrage in the "Gamergate" incident and is known for shaming companies like Blizzard into changing their games. One might be forgiven for thinking her motivations are driven by equality or equity or even exposing bigotry....but in reality, she's driven by money. Here's a message she sent to game creators recently....

"Video game designers! Let me help you avoid these kinds of mistakes. I want you to make the great games you're envisioning while appealing to a broader audience (and that includes not offending entire market segments)."

It appears her business model is....

1. Use social media to generate outrage/controversy for video game content related to identity and accuse creators of bigotry.
2. Offer her services as a paid "consultant" to "fix" issues related to content.
3. Inject someone else's work with her agenda driven content.
4. Repeat step 1.

I've begun to think that perhaps the reason creative works include a completely unnecessary asian female lesbian these days is so creators can simply avoid being shaken down by these charlatans using social media as a weapon.

What do you think? Is it ever ethical to demand that creators make the kind of content that someone wants or they're otherwise guilty of some kind of bigotry? Or do you, like me, find this complaint as always unethical since someone can always decide to support or not support content with their money....or simply create the content they want to see?

Thoughts?
Personally, I'd like to see some good, new creative works without feminist Mary Sue characters come out, but I think the producers are too scared to do that.

There is crowdfunding with multiple tiers where creators are willing to take suggestions from larger donors if they wish. But that is very small-time yet.
 
Upvote 0

MehGuy

A member of the less neotenous sex..
Site Supporter
Jul 23, 2007
55,917
10,826
Minnesota
✟1,164,232.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I do not like it when artists are pressured to conform to a certain mindset. With games like The Last Of Us Part 2 it seems like Neil Druckmann created the game he wanted, so in that case I am fine with it. Even though I am not exactly crazy about what I heard is in the game. Still.. I plan to download and play it this week.

I have noticed with many upcoming video game releases that there are an awful amount of female and people of color protagonists. As far as the female part, I can sympathize why this angers some men and women. Mainly that it feels undeserved. These same people probably have no problem with female lead protagonists in the past like Ellen Ripley and Sarah Conner. Yet modern times is different. Many women, especially those in the younger generations have acted pathetic this last decade. Powerful and capable women being portrayed in the entertainment industry does not jive well with how many men see many women currently conducting themselves. Something about it feel phony and hollow and like I said before undeserved.
 
Upvote 0

MehGuy

A member of the less neotenous sex..
Site Supporter
Jul 23, 2007
55,917
10,826
Minnesota
✟1,164,232.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I do not like it when artists are pressured to conform to a certain mindset. With games like The Last Of Us Part 2 it seems like Neil Druckmann created the game he wanted, so in that case I am fine with it. Even though I am not exactly crazy about what I heard is in the game. Still.. I plan to download and play it this week.

Just finished the game today.. have to say I might be a minority opinion but I quite liked the story and thought the sequel was pretty much vastly better in every way compared to the original. Many of the rumors I heard about the game turned out not to be true. I have no problem with a game having many female characters as long as it doesn't come down to female characters good, male characters bad. Plenty of heinous people in the game were female. I don't know, I think Neil Druckmann accomplished what he intended to get from the story.
 
Upvote 0

Noxot

anarchist personalist
Site Supporter
Aug 6, 2007
8,191
2,450
37
dallas, texas
Visit site
✟231,339.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I think that one of the major problems of this is that people are sacrificing the richness of creativity for a kind of crude and shallow morality. I'm confident that someone burning with the right creative spirit can make content great that better addresses and expresses what the crude and shallow morality stricken people weakly try to profess.

I'm not trying to polarize this issue into something that is merely black and white, I'm simply trying to address a bad element of something and an inner good element of something else and how what is good is always preferable to what is bad.

In the past in Hollywood there are countless examples and expressions of creative Acts that were both Progressive and great works of art. The tail cannot be the head and the head ought not to be where the tail is.

I think that there is this great battle of richness versus poverty, of that which is worthy and that which is unworthy in very many different elements of humanity. I think that this is in some ways a battle of what is genuine versus what is fake. The fakeness is like the shadow of the truth. It needs that spark in itself to ignite into a Burning Flame. The more those crude elements are destroyed the more pure beauty of that which is good shall remain and be. In all of us there are those crude elements and those more pure elements.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Noxot

anarchist personalist
Site Supporter
Aug 6, 2007
8,191
2,450
37
dallas, texas
Visit site
✟231,339.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
many things that our modern world is on about are all tied together. cancel culture and the so-called protecting people from fake news is very dangerous. in part the school systems are to blame because they don't teach a person how to think for themselves enough. and perhaps there are not enough great principles in people that many people would be better off living with. if you want to feed children with propaganda and not freedom you have to realize that propaganda can go either way. if all you make for the most part are propagandized people then whatever can take a hold of them and control them will. I don't think it would hurt for some people to have more of a backbone than they do.

we now have more knowledge and understanding of The Human Condition than ever before but not enough of that knowledge is properly taught to us. Large systems seem to take forever to update and there is always a war of various tribes trying to control useful things for their own ends.

I suppose mehguy has also shown that there is still enough multiplicity of great things for everyone to not like every single great thing. sometimes all it takes for a person to not like something that still might be great is that it changed something too much of what the first part was about.

or it could be the case of how when you brush your teeth and then you try to drink something sweet it might still have a little bit of toothpaste and thus harm the goodness of the drink. You might see so much of this crudeness that it ruins the good parts of it like dirt smeared on something that is beautiful.

And I forgot that there is also the important difference between fluid intelligence and crystallized intelligence. I'm sure that those play a factor in how people are in the world.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0