Ethics in voting

[manchambo]

change? BUT IN WHAT DIRECTION? & at what cost??

Change isn't good when it creates serious harm in other ways. Liberalism is NOT good change whatsoever.
If you want to see where we're headed in the USA, take a peek over into Europe where they've gone full blown liberal and socialist.
Take a look at Canada too.

Sorry but McCain would of brought good change, he's very moderate and very much unlike our current Pres. PLUS has tons more experience in office than 2 yrs of showing up to vote "present", PLUS served in our military & knows military inside & out (Obama would of pulled us out of Iraq ensuring absolute DEFEAT - real wise there), PLUS he's against abortion (which Obama promotes Abortion in all stages and funds it),
PLUS is for getting us some FUEL so we're less dependant on foreign oil, PLUS wants to cut wasteful govt. spending and make govt. smaller & many more things that would change things drastically if implimented.

If you want liberalism & what Europe & Canada have become, then you will be happy. This Christian is sickened by it all.

Which part of Europe and Canada do you find most objectionable? Is it their greater life expectancy or superior education? Or maybe the near absence of crime in comparison with our violent culture?

It is time for Americans to stop believing that sticking our fingers in our ears, closing our eyes, and shouting "America is the greatest country in the world" will make it so.

 

[MarkSB]

Which part of Europe and Canada do you find most objectionable? Is it their greater life expectancy or superior education? Or maybe the near absence of crime in comparison with our violent culture?

Near absence of crime? According to who's statistics?

Per capita crime rates by country: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

 

[CaDan]

For anyone who is wondering why the only areas where the Republican party increased its percentage of votes in the last election are those areas of American that are the fattest, least educated, and most prone to die of heart disease, this thread provides the answer.

 

[manchambo]

Near absence of crime? According to who's statistics?

Per capita crime rates by country: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

Meant to say "violent crime."

 

[MarkSB]

Meant to say "violent crime."

Fair enough. But I don't see any stark differences in life expectancy either:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_lif_exp_at_bir_tot_pop-life-expectancy-birth-total-population

A difference of about 1.5 to 2.5 years between the U.S. and your average country in Western Europe.

 

[manchambo]

Fair enough. But I don't see any stark differences in life expectancy either:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_lif_exp_at_bir_tot_pop-life-expectancy-birth-total-population

A difference of about 1.5 to 2.5 years between the U.S. and your average country in Western Europe.

You don't find a difference of 1.5 to 2.5 years to be stark?

 

[Nadiine]

For anyone who is wondering why the only areas where the Republican party increased its percentage of votes in the last election are those areas of American that are the fattest, least educated, and most prone to die of heart disease, this thread provides the answer.

this again says ALOT more about YOU than Republicans.

& for the record, I live in California, I completed school & am not STUPID and I work out regularly & stay very fit, I care about fashion & appearance and am a primp queen & am in wonderful health - same with my sister & a few other repubs. I know personally.
(& your stats totally ignore the Repub. voters in states where democrats drown out their votes like Mich., Cal., NY & many other states)

So according to YOU, all these types of people are considered "substandard"??? or to be disdained?

This is really a sick display of a post point and says alot about you personally

I could easily surmize that from demographics that racism had alot to do with an Obama win from who flooded the polls just coincidentally on THIS particular election - fancy that.

Anyone can spin election results the way they wish to suit agendas and biases like you have here.

 

[Nadiine]

Which part of Europe and Canada do you find most objectionable? Is it their greater life expectancy or superior education? Or maybe the near absence of crime in comparison with our violent culture?

It is time for Americans to stop believing that sticking our fingers in our ears, closing our eyes, and shouting "America is the greatest country in the world" will make it so.

(first, that sounds like you have an issue w/ America/Americans). & it doesn't at all prove your case.
& that's what you go by to make an assessment that things are BETTER in Europe & Canada?

I USE GOD'S WORD. how about you?

& for the record, the socialized health care system & socialism are actually NOT good - if you look at their growth & economic rates, they rate quite poorly in production.
That is what socialism generates tho. Lack of care. Why should 1 guy work his @@@@@ off to pay the bills of the lazy guy down the street?
I wouldn't! That's what socialism produces; lack of competition & drive to strive for more and better.

I heard a man from the UK call into a conserv. radio talk show host & tell him how bleak & slow things are under socialism & how so many people hated it.
Nevermind the lousy health care system.

Lack of crime has nothing to do w/ socialism - but different sins over a nation. It would also be very easy to point to Amsterdam which legalizes street drugs & prostitution & say "becuz they have open drug use & legal prostitution, their crime rates are alot lower".

How does that fit into God's teachings? You see the point? Just pointing to people with lower crime rates NEVER absolves sin (found in liberalism) and it doesn't make socialism "good" either.

As for poor education - kids in this country are spoiled rotten and often neglected by their parents - or their parents are too busy trying to being their best buddies instead of acting like a parent.

Kids in the USA do not at all value education- and many of the [democratic] teachers in the unions I believe are dumbing down kids in this country - and more worried about propagandizing & indoctrinating kids into liberalism & their skewed morals than teaching them the basics of education they need.

This is what's going on
http://www.belch.com/blog/2008/11/0...-teachers-wont-bully-kids-who-support-mccain/

How about the field trip of 5 yr olds school kids taken to a lesbian wedding?
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Education/Default.aspx?id=285766

What's happening is {and has been for years now} the teachers have agendas to indoctrinate youth in school and I also believe the evolution force feeding without a counter balance of Creationism are harming them too.
If I were taught I was just an animal, I might be inclined to act no better than that.

Due to kids not valuing education, they HAVE all the tools they need to learn yet do not WANT to learn becuz they don't give a crap.
The high school drop out rate in LA. Calif. is up to 50% now!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that becuz there's no schools? No books? NO teachers?? No.
THEY DON'T CARE.
There's a degenerative problem going on here - as liberalism escalates.

 

[manchambo]

(first, that sounds like you have an issue w/ America/Americans). & it doesn't at all prove your case.
& that's what you go by to make an assessment that things are BETTER in Europe & Canada?

I USE GOD'S WORD. how about you?

& for the record, the socialized health care system & socialism are actually NOT good - if you look at their growth & economic rates, they rate quite poorly in production.
That is what socialism generates tho. Lack of care. Why should 1 guy work his @@@@@ off to pay the bills of the lazy guy down the street?
I wouldn't! That's what socialism produces; lack of competition & drive to strive for more and better.

I heard a man from the UK call into a conserv. radio talk show host & tell him how bleak & slow things are under socialism & how so many people hated it.
Nevermind the lousy health care system.

Lack of crime has nothing to do w/ socialism - but different sins over a nation. It would also be very easy to point to Amsterdam which legalizes street drugs & prostitution & say "becuz they have open drug use & legal prostitution, their crime rates are alot lower".

How does that fit into God's teachings? You see the point? Just pointing to people with lower crime rates NEVER absolves sin (found in liberalism) and it doesn't make socialism "good" either.

As for poor education - kids in this country are spoiled rotten and often neglected by their parents - or their parents are too busy trying to being their best buddies instead of acting like a parent.

Kids in the USA do not at all value education- and many of the [democratic] teachers in the unions I believe are dumbing down kids in this country - and more worried about propagandizing & indoctrinating kids into liberalism & their skewed morals than teaching them the basics of education they need.

This is what's going on
http://www.belch.com/blog/2008/11/0...-teachers-wont-bully-kids-who-support-mccain/

How about the field trip of 5 yr olds school kids taken to a lesbian wedding?
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Education/Default.aspx?id=285766

What's happening is {and has been for years now} the teachers have agendas to indoctrinate youth in school and I also believe the evolution force feeding without a counter balance of Creationism are harming them too.
If I were taught I was just an animal, I might be inclined to act no better than that.

Due to kids not valuing education, they HAVE all the tools they need to learn yet do not WANT to learn becuz they don't give a crap.
The high school drop out rate in LA. Calif. is up to 50% now!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that becuz there's no schools? No books? NO teachers?? No.
THEY DON'T CARE.
There's a degenerative problem going on here - as liberalism escalates.

Well, this is an astonishingly formulaic conservative response.

First step--accuse whoever disagrees with you of being un-patriotic. My post did not, however, include any anti-American statement. It merely noted that many other countries are beating us in healthcare, education and violent crime rates. Those are objective facts. There's nothing patriotic about blind arrogance and ignorance.

Second step--accuse whoever disagrees with you of ungodliness. On what basis can you claim that people in Canada, England, France or anywhere else don't love God? Your selection of Amsterdam is selective and unrepresentative. But let's keep this very simple--people in Europe and Canada don't kill each other nearly as often as we do. Is our high rate of violent crime a sign of our superior christianity?

Third step--pretend that any social policy more liberal than what you agree with is socialism. That word has an actual meaning, and Canada and England, among others, do not fir the definition. I fully realize that Palin does not understand the meaning of the word, but you should try learning it. And on this point I should note that adopting different health care or education policies, for example, would not entail adopting each and every other economic policy of another nation, and thus would not result in America's economy becoming like those other nations'.

Fourth step--blame every societal problem on liberalism, whether or not there is any basis in reason for it. I don't necessarily disagree with you that lack of motivation and parental involvement are problems, but there is absolutely no basis for blaiming this on liberalism (or conservatism). In fact our country has become more conservative in many respects of late--how else can you explain 8 years of Bush?--and yet our educational levels have declined. I would never suggest that this is caused by conservatism, and I have no idea how you blame it on liberalism.

As a final, general point, I think one of the biggest problems we have in this country at the moment is a sense of entitlement. People seem to think we are simply entitled to call ourselves the greatest country in the world without earning it. We have fallen off in many respects, but one that bothers me the most is the lack of respect we have shown for human dignity. How can a country that tortures people and denies them fundamental rights to justice be a beacon of christianity and freedom? The saying that the cost of freedom is eternal vigilance means not only that we have to watch for external threats, but also that we have to monitor and criticize ourselves. The absolute freedom to state such criticism, and to back it up by voting, is the fundamental genius of our political system. Complacency and lack of critical self evaluation are un-American.

 

[Nadiine]

I don't have time to tackle your whole post yet.

I'll address this paragraph'

First step--accuse whoever disagrees with you of being un-patriotic. My post did not, however, include any anti-American statement. It merely noted that many other countries are beating us in healthcare, education and violent crime rates. Those are objective facts. There's nothing patriotic about blind arrogance and ignorance.

Where did I say you were unpatriotic? I said it sounds like you have an issue w/ America/Americans.
What part of that screams "unpatriotic" to you specfically? Your first step is a false accusation.

Why lift up socialist countries to show as an example of "beating us in healthcare"? When in fact its just the opposite in socialist nations.
I've heard plenty of complaints about Canada's healtcare system - alot of people fly to the USA for serious medical issues. I wonder why.

Crime rates have nothing to do w/ socialism - either way. It has to do with violent or greedy people at the source. People can have greed, it doesn't mean they resort to violence or theft etc.

You can't cherry pick out "capitalism" & point at crime rates as the culprit. You need some proof to make that case. For that matter, I can point to mass immorality as the reason for crime rates - or lack of people going to church or whatever else I want to biasely pick.

& my post wasn't blind or unobjective - yours actually seems to be since you cherry pick capitalism to blame all the USA's woes on. As if it's just a one fix thing. It's MANY factors - we didn't have this level crime and trouble in the USA's past when capitalism thrived for decades.

 

[manchambo]

I don't have time to tackle your whole post yet.

I'll address this paragraph'


Where did I say you were unpatriotic? I said it sounds like you have an issue w/ America/Americans.
What part of that screams "unpatriotic" to you specfically? Your first step is a false accusation.

Why lift up socialist countries to show as an example of "beating us in healthcare"? When in fact its just the opposite in socialist nations.
I've heard plenty of complaints about Canada's healtcare system - alot of people fly to the USA for serious medical issues. I wonder why.

Crime rates have nothing to do w/ socialism - either way. It has to do with violent or greedy people at the source. People can have greed, it doesn't mean they resort to violence or theft etc.

You can't cherry pick out "capitalism" & point at crime rates as the culprit. You need some proof to make that case. For that matter, I can point to mass immorality as the reason for crime rates - or lack of people going to church or whatever else I want to biasely pick.

& my post wasn't blind or unobjective - yours actually seems to be since you cherry pick capitalism to blame all the USA's woes on. As if it's just a one fix thing. It's MANY factors - we didn't have this level crime and trouble in the USA's past when capitalism thrived for decades.

So to you saying someone has a problem with America is not saying they are unpatriotic. Fair enough. I misunderstood you.

Now you suggest a false dichotomy of capatalism versus socialism. Canada and most of Europe have capitalist economic systems, so how could I possibly be suggesting that our problems are caused by capitalism and would be solved by socialism? I never even thought that, much less suggested it. In fact I have no doubt that our country should remain capitalistic.

Nor did I suggest that our appalling rate of violent crime is caused by any single factor, or would be solved by adopting some particular social policy. My entire point here is a counter to the blind arrogance of stating that any policy similar to European countries' would be a change for the worse. On the point of whether those countries have better healthcare, it is really pretty simple. People in Europe and Canada live longer than we do.

I believe that the most obvious causes of our high violent crime rate are (i) rampant social inequality, and (ii) ready access to firearms. Our differential with other countries is objectively verifiable on both of these issues. Ascribing causality is more difficult, but it's not that much of a leap. Apparently we can't make any laws preventing practically unfettered access to guns, so we will have to work on inequalities for now. Improving education and ensuring that everyone receives basic healthcare are two methods of improving those inequalities, and neither entails the enactment of a socialist system.

 

[MarkSB]

You don't find a difference of 1.5 to 2.5 years to be stark?

No, I don't. Perhaps you could explain to me how this is a big difference. (Really, I don't know too much about this type of statistic)

And to note, the 1.5 to 2.5 year range was a liberal estimate. If you tally all the major developed countries of western europe you get an average life expectancy of 79.15 years. Thats only about 1 year difference, on average. That is not a big difference - especially when there are MAJOR variances in life expectancy - 3 to 5 years difference - between highly populated areas within developed countries.

But really, I don't follow what your point is. Life expectancy is difficult to predict, and you can't really narrow it down to one cause. There are great variances between different groups within a population. Are you trying to say Europeans are better than Americans because some of them live longer?? Or that if our government implemented a more socialist agenda we would see a decrease in violent crime? I'm interested because the new liberal philosophy I've been dealing with in the past couple months seem to think that all our problems will go away if we simply "spread the wealth around." I tend to think that these problems are much more complex than that.

EDIT: Didn't see your previous post. :

Now you suggest a false dichotomy of capatalism versus socialism. Canada and most of Europe have capitalist economic systems, so how could I possibly be suggesting that our problems are caused by capitalism and would be solved by socialism? I never even thought that, much less suggested it. In fact I have no doubt that our country should remain capitalistic.

 

[ImperialPhantom]

Only got through the first page, but it's already annoying me how irresponsible voters are. One disagreement with Obama or McCain means that the person is automatically an idiot. Interesting.

But Palin is NOT a reformer. She's a blithering moron. She has proven this time and time again, and she will never, EVER stop proving this as long as she's in the public eye.

 

[manchambo]

No, I don't. Perhaps you could explain to me how this is a big difference. (Really, I don't know too much about this type of statistic)

And to note, the 1.5 to 2.5 year range was a liberal estimate. If you tally all the major developed countries of western europe you get an average life expectancy of 79.15 years. Thats only about 1 year difference, on average. That is not a big difference - especially when there are MAJOR variances in life expectancy - 3 to 5 years difference - between highly populated areas within developed countries.

But really, I don't follow what your point is. Life expectancy is difficult to predict, and you can't really narrow it down to one cause. There are great variances between different groups within a population. Are you trying to say Europeans are better than Americans because some of them live longer?? Or that if our government implemented a more socialist agenda we would see a decrease in violent crime? I'm interested because the new liberal philosophy I've been dealing with in the past couple months seem to think that all our problems will go away if we simply "spread the wealth around." I tend to think that these problems are much more complex than that.

EDIT: Didn't see your previous post. :

There is no new liberal philosophy asserting that all problems will go away by spreading wealth around. Obama's comment was specifically about tax policy and its effect on the economy. His assertion was that the entire economy does better if the middle class retains a higher proportion of wealth through progressive taxation. This is essentially the opposite of the long-discredited trickle-down theory. Basically, if the middle class has money, they spend it and stimulate the economy, benefiting rich people. This same theory has been espoused by the noted socialist, George W. Bush, who pushed an economic stimulus package placing money in the hands of the middle class to stimulate the economy. This isn't saying wealth spreading will save all problems any more than saying decreased taxation on wealthy people will solve all problems.

We should try not to take too much tax advice from Joe the plumber, who is not a plumber, is not named Joe, and doesn't pay his taxes.

 

[MarkSB]

There is no new liberal philosophy asserting that all problems will go away by spreading wealth around.

That depends on who you talk to.

We should try not to take too much tax advice from Joe the plumber, who is not a plumber, is not named Joe, and doesn't pay his taxes.

Rest assured, my comments have nothing to do with Joe the Plummer. They have everything to do with the number of people I've seen praising socialism in the past couple months - both in class and here on CF.

Your post seemed to me to be hinting toward socialism - because people in favor of it will often quip about how it would reduce the crime rate and improve the well being of the population if we embraced it.