Ethical issues with owning a bar/tavern

[Nadiine]

So its alright for you to pack heat but not for me to have a beer?

Well I have yet to see where I posted that you can't have a beer.
But it's one thing for you to ELECT to have a beer, it's another thing for you to be the provider of beer to others.
That's the issue here & it's not really something I'd take lightely as a Christian.

The fact is that most people who drink alcohol are responsible with its use, just like most gun owners are responsible.

I don't know if most are responsible? I'd hope most were.

Both a bar owner and a gun shop owner could have customers who abuse their products. Unless they are selling to someone who should not be consuming their product--in the case of a bar owner that would be someone who is intoxicated or underage--then they can't be responsible for the actions of their customers.

Again, this goes back to the source - the issue isnt' even abuse, it's WHAT you are providing and what it's used for in and of itself; it's purpose.
Alcohol is a pleasure that causes inebriation very quickly - the more one drinks, the higher the tolerance they build. It takes many times to get drunk to build up a high tolerance.
Using a gun isn't quite the same is it? Do you catch a buzz and lose your inhibitions with a gun in your home?
(dear, I would hope not)

guns & food & alcohol are not all equal nor do the same things. ANYTHING can be abused.

Just like selling everything from guns to automobiles to Big Macs...its all subject to abuse. please note that several times I have said that a bar owner should not be selling cheap beer to college kids.

(see above).
But I CAN operate machinery, walk, talk, keep my scruples and behave myself after eating 2 BigMacs & shooting at a target on a shooting range.

I have apparently been more responsible. Unless I have a designated driver I never drink more than two beers which, for my body weight, isn't enough make me legally intoxicated.

What you do is on yourself, what HE sells you is on him.
Let's put this to dope dealers & see if it works the same as food & guns & alcohol??

Unless you have some special connection with God, I know of nothing in scripture taht says thou shalt not own a bar. Even Martin Luther's wife brewed and sold beer.

Well if SHE did it, then by all means, everybody should go out & sell it like lemonade at curbside to passer's by. lol
SEE WHAT I MEAN ABOUT STUMBLING NOW?!! lol That was my point - Now you use other Christians to point at, "well they do it". "she did it", "he does it"... so why can't we?
It can very well be a stumbling block. Who's to say she was right? OR WHO'S TO SAY GOD'S WILL IS THAT ANY CHRISTIAN OR ALL CHRISTIANS SELL IT?
It's not God's will for all Christians to own a liquor bar & sell alcohol to people is it? Namely pastors who are to be above reproach in their conduct.

You will have to explain this one...

If the OP has a family & some children then that could end up being a stumbling block to them eventually -

How about if the kids decide that they should be able to drink at any age? Or if they decide they should be able to drink at home in their house?
What if there's an incident in the bar where something tragic happens & the reputation of the owners becomes an issue?
There are hundreds of things that could cause stumbling as a Christian father who's responsible for selling alcohol to people at a bar.

First, alcohol isn't an accepted part of our culture in the US in the same way that it is in Europe. In Italy a child goes from mother's milk to watered down wine to straight wine. They don't have the problem with underage drinking and college binge drinking that we do because it isn't a big deal to them.

Well, it's LEGAL HERE.... so..... now why is THAT a problem? How about kids have emotional issues & are using it and drugs to 'escape' from it all?
I doubt is has much to do w/ culture as it does the other problems Italy probly isn't experiencing or producing.

But you only seem to worry about stumbling as it relates to alcohol. You can cause people to stumble in many ways. Many of us wouldn't be working if we got out of every line of work that could cause someone to stumble

No I don't, that's just what this OP happens to be about, so that's where my focus is.

 

[ebia]

Oh come on now lolol We're talking about alcohol that is very destructive as a substance.
If you're going to take on this ridiculously analitical approach, then be sure not to do ANYTHING.
There is a worldwide problem with alcohol and what it does to people and why it carries the stigma.
People don't NEED alcohol to live (like they do food or money etc).

Fast food also causes an immense amount of harm and is never good for you. Modest consumption of at least some forms of alcohol is actually good for you.

Any bar that's mainly providing a substance that is more harmful than helpful to people and regularly abused,

It's only more harmful than helpful if it's abused. A well run bar encourages responsibile drinking and (by extension) actually acts to discourage alcohol abuse.

and warned of in the bible,

The abuse of alcohol is warned of in the bible. Reponsible use of alcohol is condoned and even encouraged in the bible.

Until you know what God is going to judge, I wouldn't personally be so quick to go into a venture like this if I'm responsible for causing people to get drunk or stumble them.

A well run bar can have exactly the opposite effect, encouraging responsible use of alcholol, responsible socialisation, and creating community.

Speaking of Greed, I'd think greed could be a core reason for jumping into a bar ownership offer by a Christian.
ALCOHOL SELLS and sells BIG.

Food sells big. That doesn't mean selling it is wrong.

 

[ebia]

Plenty of people do cocaine at home too,
but do you want any part of providing it for
them?

If cocain could and was being used in a positive and responsible way by the vast majority of people, maybe I would; but it isn't. Both the cultural and physiological situations are very different.

 

[ebia]

Well I have yet to see where I posted that you can't have a beer.
But it's one thing for you to ELECT to have a beer, it's another thing for you to be the provider of beer to others.

Where do you get your beer from? If selling beer is wrong because it encourages people to buy it, then buying beer is wrong because it encourages people to sell it. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Again, this goes back to the source - the issue isnt' even abuse, it's WHAT you are providing and what it's used for in and of itself; it's purpose.

The purpose of alcohol isn not for people to get drunk. That's abusing it. The normative situation is to use it responsibly.

Alcohol is a pleasure that causes inebriation very quickly - the more one drinks, the higher the tolerance they build. It takes many times to get drunk to build up a high tolerance.

So what?

Using a gun isn't quite the same is it? Do you catch a buzz and lose your inhibitions with a gun in your home?
(dear, I would hope not)

guns & food & alcohol are not all equal nor do the same things. ANYTHING can be abused.

That's exactly the point. And most things, alcohol included, can be used responsibly. Encouraging responsible use isn't a problem. Encouraging abuse is.
McDonalds encourages food to be abused as surely as a poorly run bar encourages alcohol to be abused. A first rate English villiage pub encourage responsibly use of alcohol as surely as an ADFA shop.

(see above).
But I CAN operate machinery, walk, talk, keep my scruples and behave myself after eating 2 BigMacs & shooting at a target on a shooting range.

But not if you've abused the gun by shooting 3 people and consequently been arrested, or eaten yourself silly to the point where you are hospitalised through a heart attack. One can do all those things after a glass of beer. You are constantly trying to compare abuse of alcohol to responsible use of guns and fast food, and that doesn't fly.

What you do is on yourself, what HE sells you is on him.
Let's put this to dope dealers & see if it works the same as food & guns & alcohol??

Trying to prove that things are not identical in silly ways does nothing to address the real point, it just makes it look like you can't understand the difference between similar and identical.

Who's to say she was right? OR WHO'S TO SAY GOD'S WILL IS THAT ANY CHRISTIAN OR ALL CHRISTIANS SELL IT?

The bible condones and encourages it's use - therefore someone has to make and sell it or the bible is being hypocritical.

It's not God's will for all Christians to own a liquor bar & sell alcohol to people is it? Namely pastors who are to be above reproach in their conduct.

Running a bar and being a pastor are not compatible simple for time issues. There is no reason why one cannot run a bar and be above reproach. Your argument is circular.

How about if the kids decide that they should be able to drink at any age? Or if they decide they should be able to drink at home in their house?

Being above reproach doesn't mean doing nothing that someone can't draw a stupid conclusion from. If it did one could do nothing.

What if there's an incident in the bar where something tragic happens & the reputation of the owners becomes an issue?

See above. If one has run the business well then one's conduct is beyond reproach. If one hasn't then one has not done one's job properly, whether the accident happens in a bar, a shop, an office or a church.

There are hundreds of things that could cause stumbling as a Christian father who's responsible for selling alcohol to people at a bar.

One is not responsible for people drawing silly conclusions. If one was then every pastor in the world would be guilty of it.

Well, it's LEGAL HERE.... so..... now why is THAT a problem? How about kids have emotional issues & are using it and drugs to 'escape' from it all?
I doubt is has much to do w/ culture as it does the other problems Italy probly isn't experiencing or producing.

Sorry - that doesn't fly. One can do all sorts of statistical stuff comparing countries differing laws and attitudes to alcohol.

No I don't, that's just what this OP happens to be about, so that's where my focus is.

You are missing the point - most of your argument against running a bar could be applied equally to advise against running just about anything else including a church.

 

[Nadiine]

The purpose of alcohol isn not for people to get drunk. That's abusing it. The normative situation is to use it responsibly.

Wouldn't it be nice if people fought so hard for other things like financially giving sacrificially to God?
Or how about something like going to church? heh. People are always so fast to step up for what you can do in God's name... oh well.

I wonder if anyone's gone back to read my original post to see my stance on it?
& I'm wondering why he felt the need to ask this question if it's such a "slam dunk" "YES! you can & should own a bar"?
If it's this simple, I doubt the question would have even been raised. These posts act like any & every Christian should have absolutely no qualms or convictions about hopping into the bar business or something?

This is not just a minor issue and it's not so broad that every category of every Christian should be involved with as it would seem to show here.
& No one asked about his partner being unsaved or not; yoking with an unbeliever in an ownership of this bar - that issue is important too. Does anyone know this partner's background?
That's also got to be taken into consideration by a Christian before hopping into bed in business deals; me & my husband found that out the hard way.

DID ANYONE HERE BOTHER ASKING THE OP TO PRAY AND SEEK GOD PRIVATELY?
Instead, all I see is people hopping on the bandwagon to fight against the issues I've raised in advice to have the OP consider.

I also posted a verse in my original post that it seems everyone overlooked (or never read) and I'll go back and requote my original post again.

This isn't a type of business venture that's just a green light for every single Christian to participate in; there are many issues to take into consideration.

Aside from all that, there are just way too many little issues you've put under the microscope for me to sit & deal with each & every point you've made. Most people don't follow along those types of back & forth posts anyways - even I find them exhausting at times in each little point to dissect.

I generally disagree with your points and could raise issues with each one - like the Bible encouraging the use of alcohol - that makes it sound like the Bible wants you to hit the sauce as often as possible.
(by the way, the OT has examples of people being intoxicated, so I wouldn't say it's some normative that people only drink casually - I think society doesn't tend to drink casually from the stats I see).

it encourages a little bit of wine for health's sake, but there's an ongoing debate regarding the fermentation of that wine or not.
Providing beer to some people you know, and owning a bar are not the same anyways.

I wonder how many would sit in defense of owning a gambling/casino establishment where people gambled?
How about a CHRISTIAN CASINO?
(ps. I'm not fully against gambling at all).

 

[Nadiine]

Sure, I will quote several references to drunken sinful behavior.

Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

Proverbs 23:21 - Drunkenness causes poverty.

Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

Isaiah 5:11-12 - Woe to those who get up early to drink and stay up late at night to get drunk.

Isaiah 5:22 - Woe to "champion" drinkers and "experts" at mixing drinks.

Isaiah 19:14 - Drunken men stagger in their vomit.

Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.

Isaiah 28:1 - God pronounces woe on the drunkards of Ephraim.

Isaiah 28:3 - Proud drunkards shall be trodden down.

Isaiah 28:7 - Priests and prophets stagger and reel from beer and wine, err in vision, and stumble in judgment.

Isaiah 28:8 - Drinkers’ tables are covered with vomit and filth.
(exactly like bars and pubs)

Isaiah 56:9-12 - Drinkers seek their own gain and expect tomorrow to be just like today.

Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.

Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away heart.

Amos 2:12 - Israel is condemned for forcing Nazarites to drink wine.

Micah 2:11 - Israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks. (sounds true today)

Nahum 1:10 - The drunkards of Nineveh will be destroyed by God.


Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.

Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.

Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.

Luke 12:45 - Christ warned against drunkenness.

Romans 13:13 - Do not walk in drunkenness or immorality.

1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him. (that would mean all of you)

1 Corinthians 6:10 - Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:21 - Acts of the sinful nature, such as drunkenness, will prohibit a person from inheriting the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:6-7 - Christians are to be alert and self-controlled, belonging to the day. Drunkards belong to the night and darkness.

1 Peter 4:3-4 - The past life of drunkenness and carousing has no place in the Christian’s life.
Amen!

Now if you STILL don't see any ethical and immoral issues with opening a sinning haven called "bars" or "pubs" then I feel sorry for you.

While rummaging around to find my original post, I stumbled upon this little gem

This post goes to the 'stumbling' issue I spoke of - the Bible is very clear to state that WE SHOULD NOT LET OUR LIBERTIES IN CHRIST CAUSE OTHERS TO STUMBLE.
Now while anyone can be stumbled if you simply wear a skirt & show your kneecaps, there is valid stumbling & questionable issues when it comes to LEGIT subjects like drinking/selling, gambling, tattoos, piercings, etc etc.

I've already seen 2 instances in these posts that stumbling was exampled. It should be cause for concern.

 

[Nadiine]

here's my original post #27:

I haven't read alot of the replies, just have my own viewpoint to share... other than providing alcohol to people who often abuse it, I'd say the bigger problem is generally thru stumbling others - lost & saved alike on both sides.

Then there's an issue of unequally yoking in close business partnerships with the unsaved. My husband is self employed & deals with alot of unsaved people but is extremely careful who he partners with.

We had an issue with this 2 yrs ago - long story short, he partnered w/ 3 other men - 2 were unsaved, 1 was a former brother in law he'd known for decades and who was interested to hear about Christianity... well the one guy who was unsaved was continually throwing monkey wrenches in the deal & causing all sorts of decision problems & new obstacles to handle (even jeopardizing the entire project more than once).

It got SO BAD that my husband had another partner just buy out his share & got out of it. He doesn't like partnering with unsaved people in owning businesses - he rarely does & when he does there's usually ethical problems that spring up.

But stumbling is a more serious issue. You're associating Christ's name with a bar who's main purpose is to sell alcohol to people.
What of all the Christians who can be stumbled by you owning an establishment of alcohol? (that's probly the most serious issue imo).

& I'm not positive how God works it with judgment, but I'd be a little worried if the sins of those who did abuse alcohol at the bar weren't part of your responsibility when you are the willing provider of it - or the temptation of it to others.

Or, how does it figure to the lost as they find out a Christian co-owns a bar while they view alcohol as destructive & harmful or it makes them question your Christianity? Or if a patron gets drunk there & drives a car & hurts someone? etc etc etc.....
There are a billion ways that a Christian reputation can be tarnished or put into question with all the scenarios that can come from a business w/ alcohol - things you can't think of even now ahead of time.

I'd say, keep greed out and keep a clear conscience - make sure your decision doesn't violate that conscience God has given you.
Trust this: if you DO pass on the deal, know that GREAT IS YOUR REWARD IN HEAVEN (or even here as God blesses you richly for avoiding all the snares & pitfalls).

Another thought, if you have to ask this question, perhaps you might already know the right answer?

I'll leave you with this verse that helps me w/ tough decisions:

James 4:17
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do
and does not do it, to him it is sin.​

 

[Nadiine]

Here's some verses you need to read on stumbling - since some seem to take it so lightly here.

I'd like to note that mocking this principle doesn't help your argument any when it invalidates the scriptures principles on it.
By mocking, I mean making extreme excuses to disregard stumbling altogether, ie: "yep, you can stumble somebody just by wearing high heels or going to see a Movie... essentially, you can't do anything w/out stumbling some legalistic freak or another". etc.etc.

That's invalidating scripture by using the excuse of extremism to make it void - it's NOT VOID, it's a valid principle that is to be applied in ALL our decisions where liberties are concerned.
If you want to use that ploy here to try to support your argument, IT FAILS miserably!

Romans 14:21
It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.

1 Corinthians 8:13
Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.​

Mark 9:42
" Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.
​

Please read Romans 14:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=14&version=49&context=chapter​

Romans 14

Principles of Conscience

1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.​

2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11 For it is written,
"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

And here's 1 Cor 8 on stumbling others:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=8&version=49&context=chapter
​

1 Corinthians 8

Take Care with Your Liberty

1 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.​

2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know;
3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.
9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.

If you take stumbling lightly, I'd urge you to reconsider -
WE'RE CALLED TO PLACE OTHERS ABOVE OUR OWN PLEASURE AND RIGHTS TO LIBERTIES - NOT TO DISREGARD & TRAMPLE OVER OTHERS THAT DON'T SEE THINGS OUR WAY & TELL THEM "THIS IS YOUR PROBLEM"!.

These are what I consider are "sacrifices" we have to make as Christians. It's NOT about US and our desires & rights, it's about OTHERS and sometimes it means 'DYING TO SELF' & carrying our cross daily.
The Christian life would be SIMPLE if we didn't have to die to self and put others first; above us.

These are all things that must be considered in questionable issues like this.​

​

 

[Chie]

Here's some verses you need to read on stumbling - since some seem to take it so lightly here.

I'd like to note that mocking this principle doesn't help your argument any when it invalidates the scriptures principles on it.
By mocking, I mean making extreme excuses to disregard stumbling altogether, ie: "yep, you can stumble somebody just by wearing high heels or going to see a Movie... essentially, you can't do anything w/out stumbling some legalistic freak or another". etc.etc.

That's invalidating scripture by using the excuse of extremism to make it void - it's NOT VOID, it's a valid principle that is to be applied in ALL our decisions where liberties are concerned.
If you want to use that ploy here to try to support your argument, IT FAILS miserably!

Romans 14:21
It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.

1 Corinthians 8:13
Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.​

Mark 9:42
" Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.
​

Please read Romans 14:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=14&version=49&context=chapter​

Romans 14

Principles of Conscience

1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.​

2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11 For it is written,
"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

And here's 1 Cor 8 on stumbling others:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=8&version=49&context=chapter
​

1 Corinthians 8

Take Care with Your Liberty

1 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.​

2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know;
3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.
9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.

If you take stumbling lightly, I'd urge you to reconsider -
WE'RE CALLED TO PLACE OTHERS ABOVE OUR OWN PLEASURE AND RIGHTS TO LIBERTIES - NOT TO DISREGARD & TRAMPLE OVER OTHERS THAT DON'T SEE THINGS OUR WAY & TELL THEM "THIS IS YOUR PROBLEM"!.

These are what I consider are "sacrifices" we have to make as Christians. It's NOT about US and our desires & rights, it's about OTHERS and sometimes it means 'DYING TO SELF' & carrying our cross daily.
The Christian life would be SIMPLE if we didn't have to die to self and put others first; above us.

These are all things that must be considered in questionable issues like this.​

​

A righteous man is conscious of his friend, but the ways of the wicked lead them astray.
Chance are if you find yourself in trouble today, last night you was with someone you shouldn't have been.

 

[NHB_MMA]

This post goes to the 'stumbling' issue I spoke of - the Bible is very clear to state that WE SHOULD NOT LET OUR LIBERTIES IN CHRIST CAUSE OTHERS TO STUMBLE.
Now while anyone can be stumbled if you simply wear a skirt & show your kneecaps, there is valid stumbling & questionable issues when it comes to LEGIT subjects like drinking/selling, gambling, tattoos, piercings, etc etc.

I've already seen 2 instances in these posts that stumbling was exampled. It should be cause for concern.

Nadiine, you have brought up some good concerns I would like to reply to when I get a chance (weekend maybe, as there is so much to digest in this thread now). But this issue immediately caught my eye.

The stumbling issue is not something I dismiss entirely, but it was written and directed to the early Christians that were seeking to convert people within the Jewish community. The concept of departing from the Jewish laws was a radical one indeed. That was the main focus of the stumbling issue.

I am only one man. I cannot completely undo what some individuals have instilled in some denominations over the years with radical, fascist thinking. For example, I am not going to refrain from every buying a raffle ticket to help a charitable cause, because a church like the Nazarene church I was raised in has taken a topic not even directly addressed in the Bible and brought it to that extreme. If that causes someone out there to stumble, then it is someone who stumbled because he never sought to learn about various factions of the Christian faith, but simply allowed himself to be influenced by radical extremists. If someone sees me walking into the pub and says "Gosh, NHB MMA is supposed to be a Christian...they must all be a bunch of phonies" then the true problem is the whacko mentality that was drilled into that individual...and the particular individual for not exploring the teachings and doctrines of others. For example, even growing up Nazarene, I found it curious that my Catholic neighbor was a wine-maker and would drink alcohol. I sought answers, understood, and cease to be automatically judgmental.

A FAR GREATER problem than anyone stumbling on NHB MMA's account is how many people never got an honest explanation of the gospel because of being ostracized on account of such matters? How many people ran from Christianity because all they knew of it was condemnation of certain activities that never passed the litmus test of common sense? They just dismiss all Christians as "Holy Rollers" because the only thing they know of them is something non-sensible (such as women being forbidden to wear pants or make-up). Makes me wonder if some of the "Holy Rollers" will be rolling in fire and brimstone someday. I can't say for certain, but it's just a thought.

 

[Nadiine]

Nadiine, you have brought up some good concerns I would like to reply to when I get a chance (weekend maybe, as there is so much to digest in this thread now). But this issue immediately caught my eye.

The stumbling issue is not something I dismiss entirely, but it was written and directed to the early Christians that were seeking to convert people within the Jewish community. The concept of departing from the Jewish laws was a radical one indeed. That was the main focus of the stumbling issue.

I am only one man. I cannot completely undo what some individuals have instilled in some denominations over the years with radical, fascist thinking. For example, I am not going to refrain from every buying a raffle ticket to help a charitable cause, because a church like the Nazarene church I was raised in has taken a topic not even directly addressed in the Bible and brought it to that extreme. If that causes someone out there to stumble, then it is someone who stumbled because he never sought to learn about various factions of the Christian faith, but simply allowed himself to be influenced by radical extremists. If someone sees me walking into the pub and says "Gosh, NHB MMA is supposed to be a Christian...they must all be a bunch of phonies" then the true problem is the whacko mentality that was drilled into that individual...and the particular individual for not exploring the teachings and doctrines of others. For example, even growing up Nazarene, I found it curious that my Catholic neighbor was a wine-maker and would drink alcohol. I sought answers, understood, and cease to be automatically judgmental.

A FAR GREATER problem than anyone stumbling on NHB MMA's account is how many people never got an honest explanation of the gospel because of being ostracized on account of such matters? How many people ran from Christianity because all they knew of it was condemnation of certain activities that never passed the litmus test of common sense? They just dismiss all Christians as "Holy Rollers" because the only thing they know of them is something non-sensible (such as women being forbidden to wear pants or make-up). Makes me wonder if some of the "Holy Rollers" will be rolling in fire and brimstone someday. I can't say for certain, but it's just a thought.

Your points are well taken... no doubt we've all been responsible for stumbling people at some point in time - sometimes we may not even know we've done it.
I don't know how God will judge all that.

I've learned alot in the time I've been with the Lord, and my only intent here is to share what I've learned with others & hopefully keep them from the pitfalls & troubles I've fallen into myself.
& my intent here in my posts isn't entirely to push you away from this venture, but more to view all the different aspects of it before you leap in.
I'm sure it's very lucrative - but sometimes the money isn't worth it when the troubles come from it if it wasn't God's will for us. & alot of damage could be done in the meantime.

I think you'll end up feeling if it's right or not over time & seeking the Lord in His will. I don't know what His will is for you, but going into a bar/pub venture is a serious one for a Christian imo.
In the end, I'd heavily rely on James 4:17 and your conscience - make sure it's completely CLEAR before going into it.

Me & my husband have gone thru ALOT of ethical issues in his line of work (business owner & now consultant). We're always faced with issues... right now we're facing one about a Casino - that's why your post stood out to me so much, we deal with these kind of decisions more often then I'd like.

One thing we've learned is, OBEY GOD AT ALL COSTS. Even when it looks like you will lose income. God has an uncanny way of 'making it back up' and often giving you MORE when you obey.
In the long run we've looked back and noticed if we kicked the doors in & did it our way, we'd of come up alot more financially short than doing it His way.
He blesses for obedience. His word is really true when you apply it.

God bless you & your decision!

 

[LoveAlways]

As long as you have a strict policy of not over serving, I don't know what the problem would be.

 

[ebia]

I'd like to note that mocking this principle doesn't help your argument any when it invalidates the scriptures principles on it.
By mocking, I mean making extreme excuses to disregard stumbling altogether, ie: "yep, you can stumble somebody just by wearing high heels or going to see a Movie... essentially, you can't do anything w/out stumbling some legalistic freak or another". etc.etc.

That's invalidating scripture by using the excuse of extremism to make it void - it's NOT VOID, it's a valid principle that is to be applied in ALL our decisions where liberties are concerned.

I'm not saying that it's not a valid principle - I'm saying that the way you are applying it is the same extreme as someone taking the "wearing high heels or going to see a Movie... " line. You refuse to apply the same standards to alcohol as you apply to other areas and vice-versa.

 

[ebia]

Aside from all that, there are just way too many little issues you've put under the microscope for me to sit & deal with each & every point you've made.

"I'm too lazy to address the substantive points raised against my argument - I'll just ignore them and keep going."

Wouldn't it be nice if people fought so hard for other things like financially giving sacrificially to God?
Or how about something like going to church? heh.People are always so fast to step up for what you can do in God's name... oh well.

You have some evidence that people aren't doing those things as well?

I wonder if anyone's gone back to read my original post to see my stance on it?
& I'm wondering why he felt the need to ask this question if it's such a "slam dunk" "YES! you can & should own a bar"?

Because the world isn't black and white and doesn't separate into "all bars are the best thing since Calvery" or "all bars are the worst thing since the fall".

If it's this simple, I doubt the question would have even been raised. These posts act like any & every Christian should have absolutely no qualms or convictions about hopping into the bar business or something?

If you go back and read the first post I made on this thread that isn't remotely my position.

This is not just a minor issue and it's not so broad that every category of every Christian should be involved with as it would seem to show here.

Again, I don't think anyone has suggested that running a bar is the ideal occupation for every Christian.

& No one asked about his partner being unsaved or not;

I took it as read that his prospective partner is not a Christian. But I prefered to answer his question about running a bar in general, rather than deal with the specifics of his partnership which are next to impossible to address without meeting the people involved, seeing the establishment and the books, etc.

DID ANYONE HERE BOTHER ASKING THE OP TO PRAY AND SEEK GOD PRIVATELY?
Instead, all I see is people hopping on the bandwagon to fight against the issues I've raised in advice to have the OP consider.

Perhaps there is a reason for that...

This isn't a type of business venture that's just a green light for every single Christian to participate in; there are many issues to take into consideration.

No-one has said it is.

I generally disagree with your points and could raise issues with each one - like the Bible encouraging the use of alcohol - that makes it sound like the Bible wants you to hit the sauce as often as possible

Yet again you fail to distinguish between responsible use and abuse. An equivalent to what you just said would be: " like the Bible encouraging people to eat - that makes it sound like the Bible wants you to stuff yourself silly as often as possible". The bible does encourage the appropriate use of alchohol in numerous places - if you don't like that, tough.

(by the way, the OT has examples of people being intoxicated, so I wouldn't say it's some normative that people only drink casually - I think society doesn't tend to drink casually from the stats I see).

In most countries where alchohol is freely available and and a part of social life the vast majority of people drink responsibly. The more you restrict its use through laws, or culturally, the more it is abused. Excessive restrictions on alcohol tend to remove the responsible use while failing to address the abuse.

it encourages a little bit of wine for health's sake, but there's an ongoing debate regarding the fermentation of that wine or not.

There is no debate amongst anybody who knows anything about the history and science of alcohol. The idea that it could be unfermented juice is a lie invented by those who want that to be the case.

Providing beer to some people you know, and owning a bar are not the same anyways.

Nobody has said they are - but buying beer encourages people to sell it, so if selling it is sinful, so is buying it.

I wonder how many would sit in defense of owning a gambling/casino establishment where people gambled?
How about a CHRISTIAN CASINO?
(ps. I'm not fully against gambling at all).

I wouldn't compare a casino to well run pub, but to a dodgy nightclub that encourages people to get addicted and spend more than they can afford. Casinos are intrinisically a rip-off, and I can't see how one could run one "well". On the other hand, I have no problem with, say, selling a few raffle tickets to raise funds for a good cause.

 

[Nadiine]

"I'm too lazy to address the substantive points raised against my argument - I'll just ignore them and keep going."

YOU may have found them "substantive"... and I told you why, PEOPLE DON'T FOLLOW POSTS LIKE THESE, and frankly neither do I when every single line is yanked out & put under a microscope when it doesn't need to be.
Just becuz you create an issue doesn't mean I have to jump thru the hoop to respond does it?? (w/out being called "lazy").

I honestly don't care if you disagree with me, I've used the bible to support my points to the OP. It's his thread & he asked for input which I gave w/ biblical supports. Honestly, I would HOPE that other Christians would give me a broad spectrum of biblical issues to consider if I was in his same position.
I don't want peoples opinion alone, I want GODLY COUNSEL and info from the Bible as to what I should consider since it's God I answer to.

THAT is what I find constructive, not people's personal opinions on alcohol or peddling alcohol to whomever. I already know its a liberty & people will both be for & against it as such...

The biblical issues are a personal conscience in the type of bar it is, a possible yoking between an unsaved business partner which can cause MANY ethical issues later as the partner doesn't follow the same ethics from the Bible that a Christian [supposedly - and hopefully] follows and likely may be stumbling others (lost & saved alike) by being responsible for providing alcohol - stumbling was already exampled here 2 times directly which goes to support my very point.

I wouldn't compare a casino to well run pub, but to a dodgy nightclub that encourages people to get addicted and spend more than they can afford. Casinos are intrinisically a rip-off, and I can't see how one could run one "well". On the other hand, I have no problem with, say, selling a few raffle tickets to raise funds for a good cause

So if YOU don't compare them the same then that's TRUE?! ... it's ok to pump out alcohol to patrons in a bar if they sit there like a clump of dirt, but don't provide them a means of entertainment along with it?

Does the Bible tell us not to gamble? I don't recall reading that anywhere. (maybe we should turn this around with all your arguments for you to defend why owning a gambling establishment is so wrong when it's not forbidden in the Bible... after all, it's only the ones that ABUSE gambling that hurt anyone)

I guess basically it's all up to YOUR personal moral ethics here as to if something's ok or not - seek YOU for advice about a liberty instead of scripture?
How you can support one yet not the other baffles me. :o oh well.

 

[ebia]

So if YOU don't compare them the same then that's TRUE?! ... it's ok to pump out alcohol to patrons in a bar if they sit there like a clump of dirt, but don't provide them a means of entertainment along with it?

I'm not sure what your question is - it seems to assume I'm saying something that I'm not, so I can't make sense of it.

Does the Bible tell us not to gamble? I don't recall reading that anywhere. (maybe we should turn this around with all your arguments for you to defend why owning a gambling establishment is so wrong when it's not forbidden in the Bible... after all, it's only the ones that ABUSE gambling that hurt anyone)

I didn't say gambling was necessarly wrong - I said Casinos are in the business of enhancing addiction and ripping people off. If you can show me a model of Casino that doesn't do that I'll rethink it, but I'm not aware of such a model. I have spent a lot of time in pubs that are in the business of encouraging responsible use of alcohol, however.

 

[Nadiine]

I'm not sure what your question is - it seems to assume I'm saying something that I'm not, so I can't make sense of it.

You didn't seem to have a problem with owning a bar but you did have one with a casino... same issues apply with liberties so I didn't understand why you put one down while promoting another.

I didn't say gambling was necessarly wrong - I said Casinos are in the business of enhancing addiction and ripping people off. If you can show me a model of Casino that doesn't do that I'll rethink it, but I'm not aware of such a model. I have spent a lot of time in pubs that are in the business of encouraging responsible use of alcohol, however.

Actually, the onus is on you to first prove your assertion that these establishments are crooked and stealing from people.
Other than that, I don't think I need to provide proof either way. A casino is what it is... no more than a bar can be serving overpriced, watered down drinks using cheap liquor.

Imo, bar owners would be no different than casino owners; wanting patrons to consume their products or play the tables - money is practically always the bottom line to an owner of a company.

 

[NHB_MMA]

I never did get to read every response here, but I'll try as some interesting points have been brought up.

I backed out of this. For one thing, the profitability sheets shown to my potential partner looked a little suspect. Second, my potential partner is a great friend, but we're not quite morally on the same playing field. He was talking about having girls wrestling in jello, and even nude bartender nights. It was something I didn't want any part of. Not much shocks me, from what I've experienced, but this is clearly something I don't want to own and have no more than 50% say in.

I helped him write a business plan to get a loan and gave him various business ideas. I told him I'd stop in if he buys it and help him out with any advice I could offer, but it's basically him alone on this.

 

[ebia]

and even nude bartender nights. It was something I didn't want any part of.

You couldn't see yourself working nude behind a bar?

 

[NHB_MMA]

You couldn't see yourself working nude behind a bar?

I couldn't, and most wouldn't [want to].

He was obviously talking about females, as I'm sure you know.