Ethical issues with owning a bar/tavern

[Blake4000]

Sure, I will quote several references to drunken sinful behavior.

Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

Proverbs 23:21 - Drunkenness causes poverty.

Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

Isaiah 5:11-12 - Woe to those who get up early to drink and stay up late at night to get drunk.

Isaiah 5:22 - Woe to "champion" drinkers and "experts" at mixing drinks.

Isaiah 19:14 - Drunken men stagger in their vomit.

Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.

Isaiah 28:1 - God pronounces woe on the drunkards of Ephraim.

Isaiah 28:3 - Proud drunkards shall be trodden down.

Isaiah 28:7 - Priests and prophets stagger and reel from beer and wine, err in vision, and stumble in judgment.

Isaiah 28:8 - Drinkers’ tables are covered with vomit and filth.
(exactly like bars and pubs)

Isaiah 56:9-12 - Drinkers seek their own gain and expect tomorrow to be just like today.

Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.

Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away heart.

Amos 2:12 - Israel is condemned for forcing Nazarites to drink wine.

Micah 2:11 - Israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks. (sounds true today)

Nahum 1:10 - The drunkards of Nineveh will be destroyed by God.


Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.

Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.

Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.

Luke 12:45 - Christ warned against drunkenness.

Romans 13:13 - Do not walk in drunkenness or immorality.

1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him. (that would mean all of you)

1 Corinthians 6:10 - Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:21 - Acts of the sinful nature, such as drunkenness, will prohibit a person from inheriting the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:6-7 - Christians are to be alert and self-controlled, belonging to the day. Drunkards belong to the night and darkness.

1 Peter 4:3-4 - The past life of drunkenness and carousing has no place in the Christian’s life.
Amen!

Now if you STILL don't see any ethical and immoral issues with opening a sinning haven called "bars" or "pubs" then I feel sorry for you.

 

[ebia]

Sure, I will quote several references to drunken sinful behavior.

Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

Proverbs 23:21 - Drunkenness causes poverty.

Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

Isaiah 5:11-12 - Woe to those who get up early to drink and stay up late at night to get drunk.

Isaiah 5:22 - Woe to "champion" drinkers and "experts" at mixing drinks.

Isaiah 19:14 - Drunken men stagger in their vomit.

Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.

Isaiah 28:1 - God pronounces woe on the drunkards of Ephraim.

Isaiah 28:3 - Proud drunkards shall be trodden down.

Isaiah 28:7 - Priests and prophets stagger and reel from beer and wine, err in vision, and stumble in judgment.

Isaiah 28:8 - Drinkers’ tables are covered with vomit and filth.
(exactly like bars and pubs)

Isaiah 56:9-12 - Drinkers seek their own gain and expect tomorrow to be just like today.

Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.

Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away heart.

Amos 2:12 - Israel is condemned for forcing Nazarites to drink wine.

Micah 2:11 - Israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks. (sounds true today)

Nahum 1:10 - The drunkards of Nineveh will be destroyed by God.


Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.

Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.

Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.

Luke 12:45 - Christ warned against drunkenness.

Romans 13:13 - Do not walk in drunkenness or immorality.

1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him. (that would mean all of you)

1 Corinthians 6:10 - Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:21 - Acts of the sinful nature, such as drunkenness, will prohibit a person from inheriting the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:6-7 - Christians are to be alert and self-controlled, belonging to the day. Drunkards belong to the night and darkness.

1 Peter 4:3-4 - The past life of drunkenness and carousing has no place in the Christian’s life.
Amen!

Now if you STILL don't see any ethical and immoral issues with opening a sinning haven called "bars" or "pubs" then I feel sorry for you.

Let's try removing all the ones that refer to the abuse of alcohol (better known as drunkenness).
:

Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.

Isaiah 56:9-12 - Drinkers seek their own gain and expect tomorrow to be just like today.

Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.

Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away heart.


Micah 2:11 - Israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks. (sounds true today)

Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.

Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.

Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.

(BTW, I'm not impressed by the number of quotes that do not say what you claim they say - putting your own spin on them before quoting them is not impressive). Note, we have already removed all NT references - compared to the many NT sanctions of alcohol, most notably the last supper, the wedding at Cana, and Paul's comment to Timothy.

Now lets look at the remainder:

Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

An absurd reading. By the same token the same verse condemns eating bread. This kind of quote demonstrates a clear attempt to proof text and no interest in what the God really intends.

Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.

Neither can harp players (see the previous verse). This is not a condemnation of alcohol any more than it's a condemnation of harps.

Isaiah 56:9-12 - Drinkers seek their own gain and expect tomorrow to be just like today.

That's not remotely what the Isaiah says.

Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

And? This no more condemns alcohol than it condemns house building or farming (verse 7).

Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.

"... when he enters the inner court."

Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

as he refused the fine food. Daniel is refusing to be bought by the finer things of his pagan masters, not refusing to drink as such.

Micah 2:11 - Israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks. (sounds true today)

I can't say I've ever known a preacher who prophesised that, but hey...
You've twisted this absurdly out of context.

Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.

As above. (resisting the temptation to make obvious just how silly this comment is)

Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.

"... to see him naked". I trust that NHB_MMA isn't running this bar to see his customers without their clothes on.

Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame

Not what the verse says in context.

Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away heart.

Out of all your verses this is the only one that comes close to saying what you want it to say, and then only when ripped out of context. Of all the shameful twisting of scripture to suit an agenda I've seen, this bunch of 3rd rate proof-texting is amongst the most incompetent.

 

[sunlover1]

I have an opportunity to be an investing partner/owner in your average run-of-the-mill bar that is for sale. In some ways, it would be an ideal business. I like to talk to people, although I'm not persuasive enough to be real prosperous as a salesperson in my current position. I'm a nightowl by nature too.

Ideal business owning an establishment that
caters to peoples alcohol craving?
I'm not sure if you want to hear the truth,
or just want to justify owning a bar, but
I will assume you want truth.
IMO, it's a given that a Christian wouldn't
desire owning a bar.
Lucrative yeah.
Have you spoken to the Father about it, and
asked Him if that's his plan for your life?

There are some potential ethical issues that arise. I would just want a casual, relaxing place that does not emphasize heavy drinking such as quart-size drafts or yard-high glasses. I understand there are good people, like my former boss, that keep their life in order but drink rather heavily. That is his business, but I don't like being a part of encouraging daily, heavy drinking in a person such as him, for example.

Many people go to the bar to get drunk.
Go figure.
That's where the concept of designated driver
comes from.
Another good reason to go to the bar might
be to find a girl who's defenses are lowered
by alcohol so you can take advantage of her.

Has anyone ever been involved with owning/managing an establishment that serves alcohol and have you had some troubling issues to deal with? How did you handle them?

I worked in a bar, and my friend is a bartender.
I have a friend who owns a bar, but she's not
a Christian.

As a final note, while anyone can reply, obviously I am not a part of the segment of Christianity that considers all drinking a sin, so there is no real sense in replying if that is all you have for me. I just don't want to get completely off-topic with the notion that wine was really grapejuice or something along those lines

I agree with you. Alcohol is not the sin,
over indulgence is.
IMO, there's not much chance to hang out at
a bar, (place which exists to serve alcohol)
and not overindulge.
Maybe an exception to the rule, but not
the rule most definitely. Otherwise, go hang
out by the exit door of a bar, (any bar) at
closing time. Pretty godly scenario there.

I'd ask Father about it if I were in your position,
well actually, I personally wouldn't
even give it a thought, but would dismiss
the idea immediately, but then again, I've
been burned big time.
NHBMMA, my advice is, run from such an
idea...
wonder how many lives have been ruined
because of the bar (alcohol mainly)

 

[sunlover1]

Let's try removing all the ones that refer to the abuse of alcohol (better known as drunkenness).

Yeah, cos people arent known to get drunk
at bars.

 

[NHB_MMA]

Let's try removing all the ones that refer to the abuse of alcohol (better known as drunkenness).

Right. I'm short on time to reply this morning, but I would say to Blake nobody disputes that abuse of alcohol is a sin. Even Catholics, Orthodox, and other churches that have alcohol at church events (so clearly have no problem with drinking) freely acknowledge this fact.

 

[ebia]

Yeah, cos people arent known to get drunk
at bars.

Plenty of people go to bars without getting drunk, and plenty of people get drunk at home.

Something isn't wrong simply because it can be abused - it's the abuse that is wrong. Almost anything can be abused.

I agree with you. Alcohol is not the sin,
over indulgence is.
IMO, there's not much chance to hang out at
a bar, (place which exists to serve alcohol)
and not overindulge.
Maybe an exception to the rule, but not
the rule most definitely. Otherwise, go hang
out by the exit door of a bar, (any bar) at
closing time. Pretty godly scenario there.

For many English pubs (say) the vast majority of customers will go home before their drinking becomes a problem. Some bars promote drunkeness; some promote responsible drinking in an appropriate social context. In many places pubs and bars are an important part of the community.

 

[Nadiine]

I haven't read alot of the replies, just have my own viewpoint to share... other than providing alcohol to people who often abuse it, I'd say the bigger problem is generally thru stumbling others - lost & saved alike on both sides.

Then there's an issue of unequally yoking in close business partnerships with the unsaved. My husband is self employed & deals with alot of unsaved people but is extremely careful who he partners with.

We had an issue with this 2 yrs ago - long story short, he partnered w/ 3 other men - 2 were unsaved, 1 was a former brother in law he'd known for decades and who was interested to hear about Christianity... well the one guy who was unsaved was continually throwing monkey wrenches in the deal & causing all sorts of decision problems & new obstacles to handle (even jeopardizing the entire project more than once).

It got SO BAD that my husband had another partner just buy out his share & got out of it. He doesn't like partnering with unsaved people in owning businesses - he rarely does & when he does there's usually ethical problems that spring up.

But stumbling is a more serious issue. You're associating Christ's name with a bar who's main purpose is to sell alcohol to people.
What of all the Christians who can be stumbled by you owning an establishment of alcohol? (that's probly the most serious issue imo).

& I'm not positive how God works it with judgment, but I'd be a little worried if the sins of those who did abuse alcohol at the bar weren't part of your responsibility when you are the willing provider of it - or the temptation of it to others.

Or, how does it figure to the lost as they find out a Christian co-owns a bar while they view alcohol as destructive & harmful or it makes them question your Christianity? Or if a patron gets drunk there & drives a car & hurts someone? etc etc etc.....
There are a billion ways that a Christian reputation can be tarnished or put into question with all the scenarios that can come from a business w/ alcohol - things you can't think of even now ahead of time.

I'd say, keep greed out and keep a clear conscience - make sure your decision doesn't violate that conscience God has given you.
Trust this: if you DO pass on the deal, know that GREAT IS YOUR REWARD IN HEAVEN (or even here as God blesses you richly for avoiding all the snares & pitfalls).

Another thought, if you have to ask this question, perhaps you might already know the right answer?

I'll leave you with this verse that helps me w/ tough decisions:

James 4:17
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do
and does not do it, to him it is sin.​

 

[Archivist]

What of all the Christians who can be stumbled by you owning an establishment of alcohol? (that's probly the most serious issue imo).

& I'm not positive how God works it with judgment, but I'd be a little worried if the sins of those who did abuse alcohol at the bar weren't part of your responsibility when you are the willing provider of it - or the temptation of it to others.

Or, how does it figure to the lost as they find out a Christian co-owns a bar while they view alcohol as destructive & harmful or it makes them question your Christianity? Or if a patron gets drunk there & drives a car & hurts someone? etc etc etc.....

There are a billion ways that a Christian reputation can be tarnished or put into question with all the scenarios that can come from a business w/ alcohol - things you can't think of even now ahead of time.

So, should a Christian not own a McDonalds? After all, it could promote gluttony. Should a Christian not be a financial planner? After all, that could promote greed. It isn't just businesses that sell alcohol.

To me it comes back to the type of establishment. If you plan to build a bar that will sell cheap beer like Coors Lite to college students, knowing that they will be binge drinking, then you are knowingly contributing to a problem. If you build a nice bar or microbrewery that serves good beer and excellent food then you aren't purposely causing people to drink to excess. Will some still abuse your product? Yes. But at some point that ceases to be your responsibility and becomes their responsibility.

 

[Nadiine]

So, should a Christian not own a McDonalds? After all, it could promote gluttony. Should a Christian not be a financial planner? After all, that could promote greed. It isn't just businesses that sell alcohol.

Oh come on now lolol We're talking about alcohol that is very destructive as a substance.
If you're going to take on this ridiculously analitical approach, then be sure not to do ANYTHING.
There is a worldwide problem with alcohol and what it does to people and why it carries the stigma.
People don't NEED alcohol to live (like they do food or money etc).

To me it comes back to the type of establishment. If you plan to build a bar that will sell cheap beer like Coors Lite to college students, knowing that they will be binge drinking, then you are knowingly contributing to a problem. If you build a nice bar or microbrewery that serves good beer and excellent food then you aren't purposely causing people to drink to excess. Will some still abuse your product? Yes. But at some point that ceases to be your responsibility and becomes their responsibility

Any bar that's mainly providing a substance that is more harmful than helpful to people and regularly abused, and warned of in the bible, is an issue any Christian should take seriously - namely when being the one behind providing it to others.

Until you know what God is going to judge, I wouldn't personally be so quick to go into a venture like this if I'm responsible for causing people to get drunk or stumble them.
Speaking of Greed, I'd think greed could be a core reason for jumping into a bar ownership offer by a Christian.
ALCOHOL SELLS and sells BIG.

 

[Chie]

So, should a Christian not own a McDonalds? After all, it could promote gluttony. Should a Christian not be a financial planner? After all, that could promote greed. It isn't just businesses that sell alcohol.

To me it comes back to the type of establishment. If you plan to build a bar that will sell cheap beer like Coors Lite to college students, knowing that they will be binge drinking, then you are knowingly contributing to a problem. If you build a nice bar or microbrewery that serves good beer and excellent food then you aren't purposely causing people to drink to excess. Will some still abuse your product? Yes. But at some point that ceases to be your responsibility and becomes their responsibility.

uh , I don't get likening gluttony as the same with drinking (drunkenness) other than they both are sins. People are not stopped and issued a ticket for driving under the influence of gluttony, nor does gluttony murder children and adults alike while being under the influence, Gluttony is destroying their own bodies not innocent people around them unlike alcohol.

 

[NHB_MMA]

uh , I don't get likening gluttony as the same with drinking (drunkenness) other than they both are sins. People are not stopped and issued a ticket for driving under the influence of gluttony, nor does gluttony murder children and adults alike while being under the influence, Gluttony is destroying their own bodies not innocent people around them unlike alcohol.

There have been some good posts and I don't have time, again, to reply to all of them this morning, but I think you're being a little too overlooking. Yes, DUI is a very serious problem and puts others at risk. I would agree it is a greater evil than gluttony. But think about the man that eats recklessly and dies leaving his wife and child without him and possibly financially destitute (because he did not buy life insurance from me years ago ). All joking aside, if you don't think some people can eat themselves into the grave as fast as some people can drink themselves into the grave, you need to watch the documentary Supersize Me and talk to some cardiologists.

 

[sunlover1]

Plenty of people go to bars without getting drunk, and plenty of people get drunk at home.

Plenty of people do cocaine at home too,
but do you want any part of providing it for
them?
Jesus says woe:

Luke 17:1 KJV
1 Then said he unto the disciples,
It is impossible but that offences will come:
but woe unto him, through whom they come!

The guy asked for honest advise,
I gave mine.

Proverbs 11:14
14 Where no counsel is, the people fall:
but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

 

[Archivist]

Oh come on now lolol We're talking about alcohol that is very destructive as a substance.

No, alcohol is not a destructive substance in and of itself. It is only destructive in the hands of those who misuse it.

Your argument would equally apply to, as I pointed out, food. It would likewise apply to guns. Should we ban guns because some wacko in Virginia used one to kill people? I think not.

If you're going to take on this ridiculously analitical approach, then be sure not to do ANYTHING.

Conservative Rush Limbaugh on his radio show often carries arguments to their logical extreme in order to show how rediculous they are. I have simply done the same thing--carried your argument to its logical extreme.

There is a worldwide problem with alcohol and what it does to people and why it carries the stigma.
People don't NEED alcohol to live (like they do food or money etc).

I agree that there is a worldwide problem with alcohol. However, I would note that statistics show that nations where alcohol use is an accepted part of the culture, such as Italy, have lower rates of alcohol abuse.

Any bar that's mainly providing a substance that is more harmful than helpful to people and regularly abused, and warned of in the bible, is an issue any Christian should take seriously - namely when being the one behind providing it to others.

Again, this could apply to pretty much anything.

Until you know what God is going to judge, I wouldn't personally be so quick to go into a venture like this if I'm responsible for causing people to get drunk or stumble them.

Now you are the one using the words "stumble them." Gluttony can't cause people to stumble? Greed can't cause people to stumble?

Speaking of Greed, I'd think greed could be a core reason for jumping into a bar ownership offer by a Christian. ALCOHOL SELLS and sells BIG.

Again, that could apply to a great many things.

 

[Archivist]

uh , I don't get likening gluttony as the same with drinking (drunkenness) other than they both are sins. People are not stopped and issued a ticket for driving under the influence of gluttony, nor does gluttony murder children and adults alike while being under the influence, Gluttony is destroying their own bodies not innocent people around them unlike alcohol.

If you don't think that gluttony hurta others, please read NHB_MMA's excellent post. In any event. my main point was that they are both sins and, unless you are setting up a tofu stand, pretty much any business that you would get into could in some way cause some people to sin. That's why I suggested opening a nice bar or microbrewery that serves good beer and excellent food. Peple are far less likely to abuse the product than opening a bar that specializes in cheap bear that cathers to college students.

 

[Chie]

If you don't think that gluttony hurta others, please read NHB_MMA's excellent post. In any event. my main point was that they are both sins and, unless you are setting up a tofu stand, pretty much any business that you would get into could in some way cause some people to sin. That's why I suggested opening a nice bar or microbrewery that serves good beer and excellent food. Peple are far less likely to abuse the product than opening a bar that specializes in cheap bear that cathers to college students.

Glutton can hurt others outside of the one in bondage to the sin. I realize that. The issues with alcohol is many times worse. That is not to say gluttony isn't a problem. There is a difference in places that serves drinks with meals that is family friendly than a bar where people go and drink. I don't think that the intentions of the poster was referring to a family friendly place but rather a bar for adults.

 

[Nadiine]

Your argument would equally apply to, as I pointed out, food. It would likewise apply to guns. Should we ban guns because some wacko in Virginia used one to kill people? I think not.

I don't agree that my argument EQUALLY applies to food or guns.
You apply it to basically harmless things as if alcohol is equal to food. It's not.
One is necessity, one isn't.
I also consider a gun a necessity for myself becuz my husband is gone on business several days in a row and I need protection for myself. ANY object or anything can be used to harm - the point is, alcohol is widely used to drink to inebriation very regularly by many.

Now if you think being responsible for serving alcohol is fine, then do it. Just be willing to accept what may come from it. And if a person has any inner conviction about it, then they shouldn't go ahead with it.

I've drank alcohol all my life, and even after becoming a Christian, and I KNOW how easy to is to get drunk or too 'buzzed' on drinks; it's a fine line to tread.

Conservative Rush Limbaugh on his radio show often carries arguments to their logical extreme in order to show how rediculous they are. I have simply done the same thing--carried your argument to its logical extreme.

Even so, the question is still what God would view from it according to His moral laws and what He requires as far as stumbling others.

If the OP has a family & some children then that could end up being a stumbling block to them eventually -

I agree that there is a worldwide problem with alcohol. However, I would note that statistics show that nations where alcohol use is an accepted part of the culture, such as Italy, have lower rates of alcohol abuse.

It's accepted in the USA -our rates are horrible. The biggest problem they note are college age young adults for some reason.

Now you are the one using the words "stumble them." Gluttony can't cause people to stumble? Greed can't cause people to stumble?

What do you even mean by statements like this?? Are you mocking "stumbling" as a concept that's very real? (ie. petting a dog could be viewed as 'stumbling' some nut w/ sensitivity disorders, so do what you gotta do)?
Or are you saying a Christian co-owning a bar wont' stumble anyone, so don't worry about something as silly as that?

What does a statement like that hope to prove for your argument when it comes to scripture teaching on going out of your way not to stumble another?

 

[Archivist]

Glutton can hurt others outside of the one in bondage to the sin. I realize that. The issues with alcohol is many times worse. That is not to say gluttony isn't a problem. There is a difference in places that serves drinks with meals that is family friendly than a bar where people go and drink. I don't think that the intentions of the poster was referring to a family friendly place but rather a bar for adults.

The OP specifically said that he wanted "a casual, relaxing place that does not emphasize heavy drinking such as quart-size drafts or yard-high glasses." That's a good description of most of the microbreweries that I've visited (and I've been in over 100 nationwide).

 

[Archivist]

I don't agree that my argument EQUALLY applies to food or guns.
You apply it to basically harmless things as if alcohol is equal to food. It's not. One is necessity, one isn't. I also consider a gun a necessity for myself becuz my husband is gone on business several days in a row and I need protection for myself. ANY object or anything can be used to harm - the point is, alcohol is widely used to drink to inebriation very regularly by many.

So its alright for you to pack heat but not for me to have a beer?

The fact is that most people who drink alcohol are responsible with its use, just like most gun owners are responsible. Both a bar owner and a gun shop owner could have customers who abuse their products. Unless they are selling to someone who should not be consuming their product--in the case of a bar owner that would be someone who is intoxicated or underage--then they can't be responsible for the actions of their customers.

Now if you think being responsible for serving alcohol is fine, then do it. Just be willing to accept what may come from it. And if a person has any inner conviction about it, then they shouldn't go ahead with it.

Just like selling everything from guns to automobiles to Big Macs...its all subject to abuse. please note that several times I have said that a bar owner should not be selling cheap beer to college kids.

I've drank alcohol all my life, and even after becoming a Christian, and I KNOW how easy to is to get drunk or too 'buzzed' on drinks; it's a fine line to tread.

I have apparently been more responsible. Unless I have a designated driver I never drink more than two beers which, for my body weight, isn't enough make me legally intoxicated.

Even so, the question is still what God would view from it according to His moral laws and what He requires as far as stumbling others.

Unless you have some special connection with God, I know of nothing in scripture taht says thou shalt not own a bar. Even Martin Luther's wife brewed and sold beer.

If the OP has a family & some children then that could end up being a stumbling block to them eventually -

You will have to explain this one...

It's accepted in the USA -our rates are horrible. The biggest problem they note are college age young adults for some reason.

First, alcohol isn't an accepted part of our culture in the US in the same way that it is in Europe. In Italy a child goes from mother's milk to watered down wine to straight wine. They don't have the problem with underage drinking and college binge drinking that we do because it isn't a big deal to them.

Second, have you been reading my posts????????? Once again, I have said several times that the OP shopuldn't open a bar designed to sell cheap beer to college students for that very reason.

What do you even mean by statements like this?? Are you mocking "stumbling" as a concept that's very real? (ie. petting a dog could be viewed as 'stumbling' some nut w/ sensitivity disorders, so do what you gotta do)?
Or are you saying a Christian co-owning a bar wont' stumble anyone, so don't worry about something as silly as that?

Again, as Rush Limbaugh does I am simply carrying your argument to its logical extreme. BTW, I was specifically talking about businesses...unless you know of some new trend I don't know of anyone operating a dog petting business.

What does a statement like that hope to prove for your argument when it comes to scripture teaching on going out of your way not to stumble another?

But you only seem to worry about stumbling as it relates to alcohol. You can cause people to stumble in many ways. Many of us wouldn't be working if we got out of every line of work that could cause someone to stumble.

 

[Chie]

There have been some good posts and I don't have time, again, to reply to all of them this morning, but I think you're being a little too overlooking. Yes, DUI is a very serious problem and puts others at risk. I would agree it is a greater evil than gluttony. But think about the man that eats recklessly and dies leaving his wife and child without him and possibly financially destitute (because he did not buy life insurance from me years ago ). All joking aside, if you don't think some people can eat themselves into the grave as fast as some people can drink themselves into the grave, you need to watch the documentary Supersize Me and talk to some cardiologists.

I tend to forget that in replying you got to make sure you cover you backside , so people don't assume you mean what your not saying.

 

[Chie]

If you don't think that gluttony hurta others, please read NHB_MMA's excellent post. In any event. my main point was that they are both sins and, unless you are setting up a tofu stand, pretty much any business that you would get into could in some way cause some people to sin. That's why I suggested opening a nice bar or microbrewery that serves good beer and excellent food. Peple are far less likely to abuse the product than opening a bar that specializes in cheap bear that cathers to college students.

...I wasn't aware casual, relaxing place means a place where the whole family could go out for dinner and mom and dad could have a cocktail with their meal. ( my bad )
Where I am from they are called restaurants (that serve alcohol ) not bars.