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Eternality of Hell

DeaconDean

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but to compile GOOD theology I stick with what the scripture shows.

Not to be a stick in the mud, but, seems to me I remember reading somewhere in the Bible:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." -Pro. 3:5 (KJV)

I love reading Saint Augustine, Eusibius, Ambrose, Origen, Luther ,Calvin, Zwingli, Erasmus, Malechethon and many more.

Well then. if your reading all that, then your not sticking with what the scripture shows. Your building your theology on based on the theology of others.

A preacher should rely on the Holy Spirit to led him to the message that God wants preached, and once He has done that, the preacher should prepare himself for that sermon by sudying everything that is said on that subject. I know I do.I have heard a few preachers say the wrong thing about a certain passage of scripture just because they failed to study or prepare themselves.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DocNH

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I can tell that you have not ever debated with some of the more "opinionated" Seventh Day Adventists here on the forums.
Here is a suggestion, go to the General Theology section, start a thread that says "aiwnion" means "eternal" or "everlasting" meaning "forever" and lets see what happens.

Been there, done that, have the tee-shirt.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Actually, I have not only "discussed" their doctrine, but also taught some (reformed and converted) SDA students. While I understand their arguments, I do not see them as convincing and will gladly defend what I stated …... As you know, each verse must be looked at in its context, context, context - a point which if not submitted to will end in a "debate," which normally leads to the proverbial “t-shirt” (I'm sure we have both lose count on the # ...) … However, when a person desires to leave the context of a verse in the proverbial dust, they may blow up a storm, but in the end they become the blind leading the blind through their own man-made storm ……

Sincerely,
Doc
 
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DeaconDean

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Actually, I have not only "discussed" their doctrine, but also taught some (reformed and converted) SDA students. While I understand their arguments, I do not see them as convincing and will gladly defend what I stated …... As you know, each verse must be looked at in its context, context, context - a point which if not submitted to will end in a "debate," which normally leads to the proverbial “t-shirt” (I'm sure we have both lose count on the # ...) … However, when a person desires to leave the context of a verse in the proverbial dust, they may blow up a storm, but in the end they become the blind leading the blind through their own man-made storm ……

Sincerely,
Doc

Oh I agree completely, but you how some SDA's are "aion" does not mean eternal or everlasting, it means an "age."

That is why I say; been there, done that, have the tee-shirt.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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ReformedChapin

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Not to be a stick in the mud, but, seems to me I remember reading somewhere in the Bible:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." -Pro. 3:5 (KJV)
Do you seriously think that all the reformers would agree with how you are trying to project that verse? Can God violate the laws of logic? Or "my understanding"? If so why bother reading scripture at all?


Well then. if your reading all that, then your not sticking with what the scripture shows. Your building your theology on based on the theology of others.
Reading doesnt imply I apply all of their theology. Some of the theology those guys applied was used by the holy spirit hence the reformation.

A preacher should rely on the Holy Spirit to led him to the message that God wants preached, and once He has done that, the preacher should prepare himself for that sermon by sudying everything that is said on that subject. I know I do.I have heard a few preachers say the wrong thing about a certain passage of scripture just because they failed to study or prepare themselves.

God Bless


You cannot know its of God unless its found in the scriptures? You agree?
 
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DocNH

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Oh I agree completely, but you how some SDA's are "aion" does not mean eternal or everlasting, it means an "age."

That is why I say; been there, done that, have the tee-shirt.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Oh, I am well aware of their "age" view of "aion" and their Belief #26: “The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever.” However, I am also aware (as I am sure you are) Luke 16:24, 25 points to lasting, conscious torment on the part of unbelievers immediately after death, just as Rev 20:10 (cf. Matt 25:41; Rev 19:20) indicates a perfect period of torment during the millennium—these are essentially indisputable facts. Moreover, Matt. 10:15; 11:22, 24 and Luke 10:12, 14; 20:47 point to the decided idea that there will be degrees of punishment in Gehenna for unbelievers appropriate to the evil deeds done during one’s life. This would strongly argue against annihilationism which basically calls for a “one size fits all” approach in that all are annihilated without variation. In addition, both Dan. 12:2 and John 5:29 point to the ultimate resurrection of the lost. Then, Rev 20:11–15 describes their judgment by God with the outcome of a “second death” in the lake of fire (cf. 21:8). Just as the first death did not result in annihilation, as evidenced by resurrection, neither will the second death.

Some good articles and arguments against Annihilationism are:

Evangelical Annihilationism in Review, by James Packer available at Third Millennial Ministries (thirdmill.org) and Robert A. Peterson, "A Traditionalist Response To John Stott’s Arguments For Annihilationism," Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, 37.4 (1994): 553-568 . Geisler does a fair job also in his article in Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics.

However, like you said some of these guys from SDA and elsewhere are diehards and thus it really does no good to argue with them. Just state the truth (or write a book) and when the Holy Spirit will, he will apply it to their lives …. :tutu:

Sincerely,
Doc
 
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cubanito

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My dear Deacon Dean, while agreeing w your sentiments, the gnat strainer in me urges this post.

1- Very few learned men in the Western Hemisphere thought the earth was flat. It was well known to be a sphere by several simple observations (such as a ships's mast appearing to sink into the sea as it sailed away, and the shape of Earth's shadow and penumbra upon the moon). There were some early "Church Fathers" who held the Earth ti be flat, and this argument was known as the argument over the existence of "antipods" (that is, people whose feet where "anti" to ours).
The argument at Salamanca with Columbus was not the shape of the Earth, but it's size. The size of the Earth had been calculated by some Greek prior to Jesus' Incarnation, and varies from today's value by an amazingly tiny 5% Columbus thought it was 2/3 of it's true value. It was Columbus, and not the U of Salamanca, that was wrong. Columbus had some evidence on his side, such as the appearance of the world's largest seed on the canary islands after big storms, a seed for which there was no known progenitors since the tress that came of it were barren. What nobldy anticipated was the presence of 2 continents BETWEEN Asia and Europe. You see, ships of that day would have been unable to make the trip from Europe to Japan sailing due west. It was only the fortuitous placement of the Americas that saved Columbus from starvation.
I'm sure
 
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cubanito

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My dear Deacon Dean, while agreeing w your sentiments, the gnat strainer in me urges this post.

1- Very few learned men in the Western Hemisphere thought the earth was flat. It was well known to be a sphere by several simple observations (such as a ships's mast appearing to sink into the sea as it sailed away, and the shape of Earth's shadow and penumbra upon the moon). There were some early "Church Fathers" who held the Earth ti be flat, and this argument was known as the argument over the existence of "antipods" (that is, people whose feet where "anti" to ours).
The argument at Salamanca with Columbus was not the shape of the Earth, but it's size. The size of the Earth had been calculated by some Greek prior to Jesus' Incarnation, and varies from today's value by an amazingly tiny 5% Columbus thought it was 2/3 of it's true value. It was Columbus, and not the U of Salamanca, that was wrong. Columbus had some evidence on his side, such as the appearance of the world's largest seed on the canary islands after big storms, a seed for which there was no known progenitors since the tress that came of it were barren. What nobldy anticipated was the presence of 2 continents BETWEEN Asia and Europe. It was from the Americas where the seed came from, but there were no appropiate pollinators for it's flower in the old world.

You see, ships of that day would have been unable to make the trip from Europe to Japan sailing due west. It was only the fortuitous placement of the Americas that saved Columbus from starvation.
I'm sure there were plenty of uneducated sailors that thought the Earth was flat, but even among them, most knew it was spherical.

2- The Earth IS the center of the Universe. In fact, for me, my eyeballs are the center of the Universe, and everything else rotates around me. No, not because my massive bulk exercises such dramatic gravitational effects. Newtonian relativity, with it's quaint notions of a heliocentric solar system, is dead. Under the current "Theory of the Invariate" (Einstein's preferred term for his own theory of relativity), there are two types of frames of reference: that of an observer traveling at the speed of light, which is an Absolute, timeless and invariate perspective impossible to reach; and all other frames of reference. Therefore, as the sun does not rotate around the galactic core at the speed of light, a heliocentric frame of reference is no more "correct" than a geocentric one. Therefore, in current physics, it is equivalent to speak of a sunrise as an earthrise. One can choose whatever frame of reference is most convenient at the time. Only One frame of reference is Absolute, that of light, and within it all time is the same, as the clock stops. Interesting language from the physicists, methinks.

It turns out that even under the old Newtonian relativity, Galileo was wrong. All the RC asked him to do is admit that the Copernican system was just a theory, and that it had flaws. Galileo actually "fibbed" a number of his observations in support of Copernicus. For you see, all the models of planetary motion at the time posited orbits as "perfect" geometrical patterns, in a VERY Platonic fasshion of thinking. It was not until Kepler noted that allowing orbits to be ELLIPTICAL, a most anoyingly un-Platonic geometrical form, that observations began to line up with theory.

So, Galileo was wrong on several counts. And the RC inquisition, not my favorite bunch, actually got this one correct: there was NO adequate model at the time, and Galileo should stop lying.

JR
 
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cubanito

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My dear Deacon Dean, while agreeing w your sentiments, the gnat strainer in me urges this post.

1- Very few learned men in the Western Hemisphere thought the earth was flat. It was well known to be a sphere by several simple observations (such as a ships's mast appearing to sink into the sea as it sailed away, and the shape of Earth's shadow and penumbra upon the moon). There were some early "Church Fathers" who held the Earth ti be flat, and this argument was known as the argument over the existence of "antipods" (that is, people whose feet where "anti" to ours).
The argument at Salamanca with Columbus was not the shape of the Earth, but it's size. The size of the Earth had been calculated by some Greek prior to Jesus' Incarnation, and varies from today's value by an amazingly tiny 5% Columbus thought it was 2/3 of it's true value. It was Columbus, and not the U of Salamanca, that was wrong. Columbus had some evidence on his side, such as the appearance of the world's largest seed on the canary islands after big storms, a seed for which there was no known progenitors since the tress that came of it were barren. What nobldy anticipated was the presence of 2 continents BETWEEN Asia and Europe. You see, ships of that day would have been unable to make the trip from Europe to Japan sailing due west. It was only the fortuitous placement of the Americas that saved Columbus from starvation.
I'm sure there were
 
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DeaconDean

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Friend, for what its worth, you don't have to take everything literally. That was an illustration. Geez....

cubanito said:
The Earth IS the center of the Universe.

So your a geocentricist?

Hum...

No point in me continuing this discussion any longer.

I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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xapis

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Some good articles and arguments against Annihilationism are:

Evangelical Annihilationism in Review, by James Packer available at Third Millennial Ministries (thirdmill.org) and Robert A. Peterson, "A Traditionalist Response To John Stott’s Arguments For Annihilationism," Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, 37.4 (1994): 553-568 . Geisler does a fair job also in his article in Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics.

Peterson also wrote a good response to Edward Fudge: http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar21.htm


:thumbsup:
 
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