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I think you're missing my point. Everyone makes choices when presented with truth.You still didn't get my point: being presented with the truth, and knowing the Torah by heart and the Pharisee still did not believe is the exact opposite of the Apostles and no way the same!
Ok, then. Please address the points in the OP and explain to me just what they all are teaching. Thank you.I have no problem understanding what the word of God says, my problem is those who assert it says what it doesn't.
How 'bout that! Same here!I have no problem with God being true to his word, but I do have a problem with people who impose a certain attribute or position on God that is not something he himself has said is true.
So far, so good.1Thess 5:1-11 (as context is paramount) BTW that's point four just to be clear.
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
What is clear here is that Paul is writing to the Thessalonians whom he knew where saved and reminding them about the day of the Lord which means the day Jesus would return.
Which is, btw, eternal security.He even says that it's not something that he needs to be telling them about because they are well aware. What he's doing is giving them confidence and that he knows that they are prepared for that day even though it may not come until after they die.
No, that is totally untrue. I explained how Paul used lifestyle of the unbeliever vs the proper lifestyle of the believer and then applied both kinds of lifestyles to believers and concluded with v.10: who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.Now his confidence does not mean that all of those people he was addressing this letter to will rise when Jesus returns but only that based on their condition at that time they would.
See comment above.It's basically called exhortation, and has nothing to do with eternal security despite your attempt to make it say so.
What I did was explain EVERY VERSE. Please do the same. Or "exegete" them, whatever you think that means.You did not exegete anything here, you simply repeated them with your preconceptions.
Here is a FACT that Paul stated:Paul is stating facts here not precedents.
I have no idea how any of this relates to v.4-10.He is encouraging the Thessalonians based on what he knows of them and of himself. What has been relayed to him by Jesus. This is not to say that there are not things in this section of scripture that we cannot assimilate into our own lives as all of God's word is useful to us, but it is not directed at us in the 21st century and it's definitely not teaching anything about eternal security. What is applicable for all Christians in this chapter of Thessalonians is what Paul rights about in verses 12-22. In fact if you had actually read the whole book of 1st Thessalonians in context you would have seen that in chapter 3 v5, Paul writes; For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter had tempted you and that our labors might have been in vain.
That is EXACTLY WHY he wrote those words:Do you honestly believe that Paul would have written these words if he believed in or was confirming anywhere that eternal security was factual?
You can equivocate until the cows come home but assurance does not mean guarantee or security.
I'm not arguing apostasy. Of course believers can fall away from the faith. Jesus made that point in the parable of the soils.Sadly it will be the ones and always has been the ones who think they're not susceptible to apostasy that fall into it. Being aware of the pitfalls in our walk is exactly what the New Testament is all about and why it speaks so heavily against all those issues. There is no reason to warn us against potential problems when they aren't problems so the fact that you ignore the warnings and stick to your ignorance is bliss routine only shows why so many people like you fall into apostasy.
This has no effect on eternal security. 1 Thess 5:4-10 proves that.Here are 37 Bible verses that warned about apostasy. You will either Heed These Warnings or ignore them, the choice is yours
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Warnings-Against-Apostasy
Here is an excerpt from Billy Graham:You must remain in the love of Jesus to be saved. You must endure to be saved.
The bible warns you about this.
Heb. 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
Romans 11:22
Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS
...................................
So, if these verses aren't profitable for teaching, then what are they profitable for?
And, if they ARE profitable for teaching, then what are they teaching, if not OSAS?
Yes, they do and which ends up why there are believers and there are non-believers. Example, an Orthodox Jew makes the choice not to believe in Jesus as the Messiah!....just like the Pharisee, they should know, by the Torah, who Jesus is but they make the choice not to...the basic difference between a believer and a non-believer..... is the choosing or rejection of Christ as Lord and Savior.I think you're missing my point. Everyone makes choices when presented with truth.
Despite all other beliefs...the true Christian believer is marked with the presence of Christ in them....that's what counts in the end and all else is meaningless!Which is why evangelical believers differ on what the Bible teaches.
No it's assurance and comfort in the Paul know these people and know that if they continue on in what they are doing, they will receive their reward.Which is, btw, eternal security.
Yes, and I addressed what you had said and pointed out that v10 here has to do with Jesus's return, which Paul has already explained in 1 Thess 4:13-18. 'We WILL live together with him', can only mean when Jesus returns.No, that is totally untrue. I explained how Paul used lifestyle of the unbeliever vs the proper lifestyle of the believer and then applied both kinds of lifestyles to believers and concluded with v.10: who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
If proper lifestyle is required to "live together with Him", the phrase "whether we are awake or asleep" needs to be explained.
I expect that the answer will be something like literally being awake or asleep, which is simply ridiculous is that's the answer. Esp so because of how Paul described the lifestyle of unbelievers in the context.
What you did was eisegete every verse based on your Doctrine, not show what they actually convey. Adult with the one you put up as a challenge and I see no reason to deal with all the other ones seeing as your rationale is wrong and all of them which I've already established by dealing with the one you put up as a challenge for me to deal with.What I did was explain EVERY VERSE. Please do the same. Or "exegete" them, whatever you think that means.
Well if that's true, then that is very sad given it was in very plain English. Try reading it again with an open mind not closed off by your predisposition.I have no idea how any of this relates to v.4-10.
Like you I don't Pick-A-Part context on a verse by verse basis. I've already explained how you wrongly asserted what is going on in these verses and I've given you the explanation you can accept it or reject it but there's nothing more I can say to change your mind if you're predisposed to not change your mind. There must be a desire in your heart to know the truth apart from what you think you already know. If that is not there then all the teaching in the world is not going to change your mind because you're close to it.If you disagree, how about copying point 4 and then taking it apart point by point, or verse by verse, to show that my explanation was incorrect.
Thanks for the citation but I for one am not having a problem with understanding the difference between assurance and security. They mean two different things even though you assert that they're very close.From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assurance
Simple Definition of assurance
From From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/security
- : the state of being sure or certain about something
- : a strong feeling of confidence about yourself or about being right
- : a strong and definite statement that something will happen or that something is true
Simple Definition of security
Assurance is being sure or certain of something: going to heaven is what believers are supposed to have assurance about.
- : the state of being protected or safe from harm
- : things done to make people or places safe
- : the area in a place (such as an airport) where people are checked to make sure they are not carrying weapons or other illegal materials
Security is being protected or being safe from harm: the lake of fire.
They are functionally the same.
If you're not arguing apostasy then what are you arguing because I haven't said that anybody can lose your salvation. What I see is you continuing to try to associate apostasy with loss of salvation but calling it loss of salvation and it is not.I'm not arguing apostasy. Of course believers can fall away from the faith. Jesus made that point in the parable of the soils.
Of course it doesn't because there is no eternal security and be the verses are dealing with apostasy. Now you show me one verse that directly supports eternal security by using the words 'eternal security', then we'll have a discussion.This has no effect on eternal security. 1 Thess 5:4-10 proves that.
Receiving their reward cannot be salvation, unless one wants to ignore Paul's words in Eph 2;8,9. We are saved by grace through faith, and not by works.No it's assurance and comfort in the Paul know these people and know that if they continue on in what they are doing, they will receive their reward.
Of course it's about when Jesus returns. But it seems the context about being awake or asleep is being ignored, which is the issue.Yes, and I addressed what you had said and pointed out that v10 here has to do with Jesus's return, which Paul has already explained in 1 Thess 4:13-18. 'We WILL live together with him', can only mean when Jesus returns.
OK, then. It should be very easy to take each verse that I commented on (including my comments, and show how they are wrong. Please proceed. That's the whole point of this thread; show me why the verses in the OP do not teach OSAS.What you did was eisegete every verse based on your Doctrine, not show what they actually convey.
What hasn't been done yet is provide an explanation of what the verses in the OP are teaching.Like you I don't Pick-A-Part context on a verse by verse basis. I've already explained how you wrongly asserted what is going on in these verses and I've given you the explanation you can accept it or reject it but there's nothing more I can say to change your mind if you're predisposed to not change your mind. There must be a desire in your heart to know the truth apart from what you think you already know. If that is not there then all the teaching in the world is not going to change your mind because you're close to it.
I asserted nothing. I gave the definition of both words and explained HOW they are close.Thanks for the citation but I for one am not having a problem with understanding the difference between assurance and security. They mean two different things even though you assert that they're very close.
Nonetheless, this is irrelevant to the issue of loss of salvation or OSAS.God is never promised his people that they would be safe from harm in this life, as a matter of fact his word tells us that we will suffer persecution and for the most part early Christians did.
It doesn't matter what you "don't need from God". We have God's Word and His Word gives us promises. Or do you not think so?In some countries today new Christians suffer persecution but I can pretty much assume that you yourself have never suffered persecution in the real sense. The Bible tells us that faith is the evidence of Things Not Seen. That does not mean that God promises us we will not face harm or persecution. It means that we believe in God despite what we see presently. I don't need God to promise that his promises are true and that he will keep them. How exactly is that walking in faith if you need a guarantee that your faith walk will bring you what you believe in faith you will receive? I'm not the warnings of Falling Away into apostasy not enough for you to listen to?
No, I need to understand God's Word. That's plenty enough for me. It seems you're treating the idea of assurance or security as a weakness, as in "I need...". Nonsense.You also need to guarantee that God will keep his promises?
I don't recall dodging any of your questions. But if I have, please repost them one to a post, for simplicity.I think it's about time you start answering some of my questions instead of keep on asking more of the same that I've already answered.
Huh??!! That's exactly what I've taken from your posts. Apparently one of us has a problem in communication.If you're not arguing apostasy then what are you arguing because I haven't said that anybody can lose your salvation.
Yet, you believe that a believer who apostatizes won't go to heaven. Or are you a Calvinist who will claim that all apostates never "truly" believed. iow, just deny that anyone who has believed and then apostatizes later on really didn't believe??What I see is you continuing to try to associate apostasy with loss of salvation but calling it loss of salvation and it is not.
This is very confusing. You just claimed that you don't believe that one can lose salvation and now you say there is no eternal security. It cannot be both things.Of course it doesn't because there is no eternal security and be the verses are dealing with apostasy.
This request is as ridiculous as claiming that the word "trinity" doesn't occur in the Bible and therefore, isn't a true doctrine.Now you show me one verse that directly supports eternal security by using the words 'eternal security', then we'll have a discussion.
No it cannot, but that's not what I was referring to either. Their reward is eternal life.Receiving their reward cannot be salvation, unless one wants to ignore Paul's words in Eph 2;8,9. We are saved by grace through faith, and not by works.
Then stop ignoring it. As I said Paul taught in the previous chapter that the dead in Christ will rise first, so what are you not understanding about this? Do you not see how this relates?Of course it's about when Jesus returns. But it seems the context about being awake or asleep is being ignored, which is the issue.
There's nothing okay about it and I've already shown you that your point for was wrong and yet if you continue to deflect and equivocate about what you said. I'm not going to spend the next 3 or 4 days giving with all your issues when every one of them is going to suffer from the same predisposition. They do not teach OSAS and you didn't show that they did.OK, then. It should be very easy to take each verse that I commented on (including my comments, and show how they are wrong. Please proceed. That's the whole point of this thread; show me why the verses in the OP do not teach OSAS.
Anybody who uses sound biblical hermeneutics does not have a problem seeing what they are teaching but the point is they aren't teaching OSAS as you claim, even though you didn't show such.What hasn't been done yet is provide an explanation of what the verses in the OP are teaching.
I cannot agree with this. If eternal life is a reward, then it is earned. There would be no grace in that. The Bible does NOT teach that.No it cannot, but that's not what I was referring to either. Their reward is eternal life.
Seriously?? The comment was directed at you. Stop ignoring the context about what Paul meant by being awake or asleep. I'm not the one who has ignored it. I'm the one who has been EMPHASIZING it.Then stop ignoring it.
Apparently not, so when will someone explain all this to me?As I said Paul taught in the previous chapter that the dead in Christ will rise first, so what are you not understanding about this? Do you not see how this relates?
All I remember is that you disagreed with point 4. But I wasn't shown wrong in any sense.There's nothing okay about it and I've already shown you that your point for was wrong and yet if you continue to deflect and equivocate about what you said.
With such a bias, I agree that it wouldn't do any good and it shouldn't be attempted.I'm not going to spend the next 3 or 4 days giving with all your issues when every one of them is going to suffer from the same predisposition.
Funny thing. This is basically the ONLY response I get from the LOS crowd. Disagree, make claims but never back any of it up with evidence.They do not teach OSAS and you didn't show that they did.
OK, fine. Then just WHAT do they TEACH? Please answer. They ARE profitable for something. Do you have any idea?Anybody who uses sound biblical hermeneutics does not have a problem seeing what they are teaching but the point is they aren't teaching OSAS as you claim, even though you didn't show such.
Here is an excerpt from Billy Graham:
Jesus said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away" (John 6:37).
Think of it this way. When a child is born, he or she becomes part of a family. Even if they rebel or do something wrong, they're still a member of that family, and nothing can ever end that relationship. And when we come to Christ, we become members of a new family -- the family of God. We are now His children, and just as an earthly child will always be part of their family, so we will always be part of Christ's family -- even if we sin and turn away from Him for a time.
But let me add two important warnings. The first is a warning against false belief -- that is, assuming we're committed to Christ when we really aren't. Many people, I'm afraid, fall into this category. They're like the plants Jesus warned about, that grew for a time but then withered and died (see Luke 8:4-15).
The second is a warning against allowing sin to control us -- even as believers. Sin cuts us off from God, and has devastating effects on our lives. Flee from sin, the Bible says, "and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness" (1 Timothy 6:11).
Dis is mucho too obvious for those who insist on living in their sins ...It is not necessary to remember every sin if you are sincerely sorry for your sins.
God's enemies teach they have done dis ...Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven,
but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
You and the FG2 need to take a close look at the 10 NT verses that teach ...I believe that I am saved by God's grace alone and nothing I could every do makes any difference!
I don't expect you to believe me and I can quote as many verses that say I am right. The bottom line and above all else it is a spiritual thing or a heart thing...I just know its right.....on face value , I am right because your belief is founded of "shifting sands"...mine is totally in God's hands and is unshakeable!You and the FG2 need to take a close look at the 10 NT verses that teach ...
one must continue in the faith until the end of his/her life to receive eternal life!
Dis is perhaps the most simple and obvious set of anti-OSAS NT Scriptures!
Yes, Thoiseday, der are many "IF" conditional statements in the NT.
But, dese are ignored by the enemies of God who teach OSAS.
Where are you living?Dis is mucho too obvious for those who insist on living in their sins ...
OK, show any verse that says that salvation is based on what one "duz" vs what one believes.and want-desire-expect to receive salvation regardless of what dey duz!
Please read the whole context for those verses.You and the FG2 need to take a close look at the 10 NT verses that teach ...
one must continue in the faith until the end of his/her life to receive eternal life!
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