Eternal Torment/Hell?

[98cwitr]

The Greator God of the Bible can and will resurrect them to face judgment.
It ain't no big deal for GOD. What were you thinking?

I was making a rhetorical point about his idea of death

 

[Der Alte]

So, if you belong to one of these groups or a splinter from them, you belong to a false religious group. If one cannot produce credible, verifiable, historical evidence for an organized body of believers, by any name, which teaches what their "church" teaches, between 90 AD, when the NT was completed, and the late 19th century, then it is false. The church that Jesus built on the rock, against which the gates of hell cannot prevail, did not disappear from the face of the earth for 1900 +/- years only to be "rediscovered" by some Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Russell, Joseph Smith, etc.

i'm sure you never heard that Catholicism is infused with pagan idea and tradition.... What do you think modern Christianity comes from? Just further evidence that you support tradition as truth and are simply dismissive of others. I'm not a JW but- do you believe that JW's are a cult? that is my guess given your being highly dismissive.

While many of the Reformationists had been Catholic, they as I, rejected all of the false trappings of Catholicism and returned to the Biblical faith. I have NEVER used the word "Cult" in this forum. I do consider the groups that I named as Contentious Unscriptural Later Theological Systems. My point still stands the Church that Jesus built could not, did not disappear from the face of the earth for 1900 +/- years to be supposedly "discovered" by some self appointed religions leader, as those I named.

 

[Der Alte]

In Ezekiel 32 and Isaiah 14 God himself is speaking. God does not say that the two passages are figurative. Who is speaking in Ps 146 and 155?

You have not provided any historical evidence that God is actually speaking in those verses.

Might consider getting your argument straight before posting it. Historical evidence is not necessary in this case, I gave irrefutable scriptural evidence that in both passages God, Himself, is speaking. In both passages God tells the prophet "Go to the people and say to them" . . . "thus saith the Lord." The exact words God wants the audience to hear are recorded and each passage is concluded with the words "thus saith the Lord." identifying the the originator as God.

OTOH all your out-of-context proof texts lack this commissioning of the words and identification by God, "thus saith the Lord." And while the words of your proof texts are inspired by God, they are not "thus saith the Lord."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

John Defined "The Lake of Fire" as "The Second Death," so Hell is not there either.
Jig proved that Hades is not Hell.
The Septuagint proves that Hades and Sheol are the same, so Sheol is also not Hell.
The only remaining possibility is Gehenna, the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. Is Hell there?

I also find this passage in Revelation interesting.
Death riding a horse and hades following behind it.

Reve 6:8 And I saw and behold! a green horse and the one sitting up on it a name to him the death, and the hades followed with him.........

Curiously, in Exodus 15 where they are singing this song of Moses, it also mentions a "horse and rider"

Exodus 15:1 Then Mosheh is singing and sons of Yisra'el the song, this to YHWH. And they are saying to say of "I shall sing to YHWH that to exalt He exalts.
Horse and one riding of it He heaved into sea
[Revelation 15:3]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7464995/
Why no mention of "gehenna" in Paul's Epistles?

 

[Timothew]

Please show me scriptural and/or historical evidence that Gehenna was ever a garbage dump and that it was a garbage dump during the earthly ministry of Jesus when he referred to it? In the meantime I will produce my evidence, both scriptural and historical, that long before, and during the time of Jesus the ancient Jews considered Gehenna to represent the place of eternal punishment. I have presented this evidence to you, specifically, several times, you continue to ignore it and repeat your unsupported opinion over and over, as if repetition will somehow make it true.

And OBTW this source also shows that the ancient Jews used the words "Sheol" and "Gehenna" interchangeably. Please feel free to read actual evidence, and address it, rather than ignoring it. Ignoring it will not make it go away. Note, the scripture is highlighted in blue.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

So the definition of Hell from the Jewish Encylopedia is the one we are all going to go with? Are all the Eternal Torment Teachers in agreement with this?

Are you saying that the dead go to Gehenna for eternal torture?

You also haven't proven anything, so the charge of "repetion doesn't make it true" also applies to you.

"Hell, like Paradise, was created by God" You got any proof of this? Remember, repetion doesn't make it true.


"Remain for twelve months in Gehenna," Do you really expect me to wade through and respond to all of this nonsense? No Christian believes that any sinner will remain in Hell or Gehenna or whatever for only 12 months.

Isaiah 33:11? "You conceive chaff,
you give birth to straw;
your breath is a fire that consumes you."

What? You can't be serious? This doesn't say "The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain. . ."

You post a lot of words, maybe be a little more selective, and to the point. Repetion doesn't make it true, nor do a lot of unrelated words. "Barbarbarbarbarbarbarbarbarbarbar, see I'm right and you're wrong!"

 

[Der Alte]

John Defined "The Lake of Fire" as "The Second Death," so Hell is not there either.
Jig proved that Hades is not Hell.
The Septuagint proves that Hades and Sheol are the same, so Sheol is also not Hell.
The only remaining possibility is Gehenna, the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. Is Hell there?

For your information and edification historical and scriptural evidence of what, Hillel and Shammai, the two Rabbinical schools in Israel at the time of Jesus taught concerning eternal punishment. Jesus never taught anything which contradicted these.

Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
R. Kruspedai said in the name of R. Johanan: Three books are opened on New Year's Day: one for the utterly wicked, one for the wholly good, and one for the average class of people. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the entirely wicked are at once inscribed, and destruction destined for them; the average class are held in the balance from New Year's Day till the Day of Atonement; if they prove themselves worthy they are inscribed for life, if not they are inscribed for destruction. Said R. Abhin: Whence this teaching? From the passage [Psalms, lxix. 29]: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and they shall not be written down with the righteous."
We have learned in a Boraitha: The school of Shammai said: There are three divisions of mankind at the Resurrection: the wholly righteous, the utterly wicked, and the average class. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the utterly wicked are at once inscribed, and destined for Gehenna, as we read [Dan. xii. 2]: "And many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The third class, the men between the former two, descend to Gehenna, but they weep and come up again, in accordance with the passage [Zech. xiii. 9]: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; and he shall call on My name, and I will answer him." p. 27
[paragraph continues] Concerning this last class of men Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 6]: "The Lord causeth to die and maketh alive, He bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up again." The school of Hillel says: The Merciful One inclines (the scale of justice) to the side of mercy, and of this third class of men David says [Psalms, cxvi. 1]: "It is lovely to me that the Lord heareth my voice"; in fact, David applies to them the Psalm mentioned down to the words, "Thou hast delivered my soul from death" [ibid. 8].
Transgressors of Jewish birth and also of non-Jewish birth, who sin with their body descend to Gehenna, and are judged there for twelve months; after that time their bodies are destroyed and burnt, and the winds scatter their ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous, as we read [Mal. iii. 23]: "And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet"; but as for Minim, informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces." R. Itz'hac b. Abhin says: "Their faces are black like the sides of a caldron"; while Rabha remarked: "Those who are now the handsomest of the people of Me'huzza will yet be called the children of Gehenna."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

John is using temporal terms that his audience can understand and relate to. The use of "no rest day or night" with the phrase "forever and ever" emphasizes the eternal, everlasting, unending nature of the torment.

What about that great City in Revelation burning forever and ever?

Revelation 14:11 And the Smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages..........
[Luke 16:24,26]

Reve 19:3 And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".

http://www.christianforums.com/t7434988/
OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire

 

[Der Alte]

So the definition of Hell from the Jewish Encylopedia is the one we are all going to go with? Are all the Eternal Torment Teachers in agreement with this?

Are you saying that the dead go to Gehenna for eternal torture?

You also haven't proven anything, so the charge of "repetion doesn't make it true" also applies to you.

"Hell, like Paradise, was created by God" You got any proof of this? Remember, repetion doesn't make it true.

I posted historical and scriptural evidence! You have only posted your opinion that Gehenna was ever a garbage dump and was still a garbage dump at the time of Jesus. If God did not create everything where did the lake of fire come from? Based on their own Hebrew scriptures the ancient Jews believed that Hell/Gehenna existed and everything, including hell, was created by God. Your opinion is irrelevant!

You and others argue that eternal punishment in hell was a pagan concept from the Greeks, Romans, etc. I have provided historical evidence that the Jews long before Jesus believed in a place of eternal punishment and they based their beliefs on scriptures as indicated in the article I posted.

"Remain for twelve months in Gehenna," Do you really expect me to wade through and respond to all of this nonsense? No Christian believes that any sinner will remain in Hell or Gehenna or whatever for only 12 months.

Irrelevant what you think Christians believe or don't believe. Ancient Jews held this belief based on their Hebrew scriptures.

Isaiah 33:11? "You conceive chaff,
you give birth to straw;
your breath is a fire that consumes you."

What? You can't be serious? This doesn't say "The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain. . .

"

You're right it doesn't the Isaiah reference refers to what follows.

Isa 33:10-12
(10) Now will I arise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift Myself up.
(11) Ye conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble; your breath is a fire that shall devour you.
(12) And the peoples shall be as the burnings of lime; as thorns cut down, that are burned in the fire.
​

How you twist, distort, misrepresent and misinterpret scripture is irrelevant. The ancient Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal punishment, they called it Gehenna, and their belief was based on scripture, as I have shown.

You post a lot of words, maybe be a little more selective, and to the point. Repetion doesn't make it true, nor do a lot of unrelated words. "Barbarbarbarbarbarbarbarbarbarbar, see I'm right and you're wrong!"

There is a big difference in you endlessly repeating your unsupported opinion and me posting historical and scriptural evidence, as I have done. The ancient Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending punishment, they called it Gehenna, these beliefs were based on scripture, as I have shown.

Your mockery and objections are meaningless and irrelevant. The Jews knew their own language and interpreted their Hebrew scriptures in accordance with their knowledge and understanding. OTOH I doubt if you could locate a Hebrew verb if your life depended on it, therefore your opinion of the of the Hebrew scriptures is meaningless and irrelevant.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*

Your mockery and objections are meaningless and irrelevant. The Jews knew their own language and interpreted their Hebrew scriptures in accordance with their knowledge and understanding. OTOH I doubt if you could locate a Hebrew verb if your life depended on it, therefore your opinion of the of the Hebrew scriptures is meaningless and irrelevant.

Then why do the Jews have a different concept of Hell than do Christians and Muslims

http://www.christianforums.com/t7491713/
Judaism and Hell

http://www.christianforums.com/t2729707/
Are muslims scared of hell ?

 

[Der Alte]

You're right. It is literal. When the righteous die they all squeeze into the chest cavity of father Abraham, and watch as their loved ones burn in torture forever- all before judgment.

Was Jesus literally squeezed into the Father's chest cavity?

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.​

"In the bosom of" is a Hebraism which means the position of honor beside the host at a dinner or feast. In Biblical times at meals people reclined on their left elbow with their feet away from the table. "In the bosom" was the position immediately in front of the host.

And before you even go there, the use of one figure of speech does NOT make an enter passage figurative. For example, when Jesus called Herod a fox, he was not literally a four legged fox. When Jesus called 2 of his disciples "sons of thunder" they were not literally fathered by thunder. When Jesus called Simon a Rock, he was not literally a stone. Those were all figures of speech but the remainder of the passages were not figurative. If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense. Making something fit your assumptions/presuppositions is not a good excuse for presuming that a passage is figurative.

You are the one who so desperately needs this story to mean something that it does not. The overwhelming usages of sheol and hades is to describe the realm of the dead- Hades is literally "the unseen." You are not interested in being literal.

Irrelevant! Jesus associated Sheol one time with fire and torment. He never introduced the passage as a parable and never explained it to this disciples. I have given evidence that the ancient Jews before and during the time of Jesus used Gehenna and Sheol interchangeably to refer to the place of eternal punishment. Jesus did not contradict this, Luke 16:19ff. confirms it. Jesus did NOT say something in some kind of secret religious code and expect his followers 1900 years later to decipher it. Google it, over 2 million hits and scores and scores of different contradicting explanations of what Luke 16:19 ff. "really means." And every one of them claiming they alone are right and everyone else is wrong.

There is no where else in scripture where you can postulate that hades has anything to do with fire- you are the one misusing this passage. in fact, hades and the lake of fire are two separate things as proven in revelation when death and hades are cast into the lake of fire, that is the second death.

desperation.

Death is the punctiliar, i.e. point in time, cessation of life it has no physical presence or properties and cannot be thrown anywhere. Does God yank every grave out of the ground and throw it in the lake of fire? Or does God throw the angel of death and the demon of hell in the LOF and end their power to kill 1/4 of the earth?

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

Note the angel of death and the demon of hell are sentient beings, referred to with masculine pronouns, his, him, them, and they were given power to kill. The angel of death first appears in Exodus, where he went through Egypt killing the first born, and again in Ezekiel, where he went thorough Jerusalem killing apostates who had worshiped pagan idols.

 

[Timothew]

Three books are opened on New Year's Day: one for the utterly wicked, one for the wholly good, and one for the average class of people. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the entirely wicked are at once inscribed, and destruction destined for them; the average class are held in the balance from New Year's Day till the Day of Atonement; if they prove themselves worthy they are inscribed for life, if not they are inscribed for destruction.
Is this truly what you believe?

"Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and they shall not be written down with the righteous."
This is what I've been saying!

There are three divisions of mankind at the Resurrection: the wholly righteous, the utterly wicked, and the average class.
​

Is this truly what you believe?

Transgressors of Jewish birth and also of non-Jewish birth, who sin with their body descend to Gehenna, and are judged there for twelve months; after that time their bodies are destroyed and burnt, and the winds scatter their ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous,
​

Is this truly what you believe?

​

Do you believe these Rabbis are speaking the truth?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well, this appears to be a debate primarily between 2 posters, so I will respectively bow out

 

[Der Alte]

*snip*

Your mockery and objections are meaningless and irrelevant. The Jews knew their own language and interpreted their Hebrew scriptures in accordance with their knowledge and understanding. OTOH I doubt if you could locate a Hebrew verb if your life depended on it, therefore your opinion of the of the Hebrew scriptures is meaningless and irrelevant.

Then why do the Jews have a different concept of Hell than do Christians and Muslims

http://www.christianforums.com/t7491713/
Judaism and Hell

http://www.christianforums.com/t2729707/
Are muslims scared of hell ?

I do not know nor do I much care what modern Jews, or Muslims, believe about hell. According to the Quran Sura 82 the sun sets in a muddy spring. According to the Hadith, teachings of the prophet, the sun waits under the throne of Allah and asks permission to rise.

I posted historical and scriptural evidence for what the ancient Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed and that is the only beliefs relevant to this forum. Members here can read it or ignore it, their choice.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I do not know nor do I much care what modern Jews, or Muslims, believe about hell. According to the Quran Sura 82 the sun sets in a muddy spring. According to the Hadith, teachings of the prophet, the sun waits under the throne of Allah and asks permission to rise.

I posted historical and scriptural evidence for what the ancient Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed and that is the only beliefs relevant to this forum. Members here can read it or ignore it, their choice.

You are the one that mentioned the Jews in an earlier post so evidently you do care.

 

[Der Alte]

Do you believe these Rabbis are speaking the truth?

Please read my post again. Note my introductory paragraph. And I believe I highlighted certain things.

For your information and edification historical and scriptural evidence of what, Hillel and Shammai, the two Rabbinical schools in Israel at the time of Jesus taught concerning eternal punishment. Jesus never taught anything which contradicted these.

Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
R. Kruspedai said in the name of R. Johanan: Three books are opened on New Year's Day: one for the utterly wicked, one for the wholly good, and one for the average class of people. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the entirely wicked are at once inscribed, and destruction destined for them; the average class are held in the balance from New Year's Day till the Day of Atonement; if they prove themselves worthy they are inscribed for life, if not they are inscribed for destruction. Said R. Abhin: Whence this teaching? From the passage [Psalms, lxix. 29]: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and they shall not be written down with the righteous."
We have learned in a Boraitha: The school of Shammai said: There are three divisions of mankind at the Resurrection: the wholly righteous, the utterly wicked, and the average class. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the utterly wicked are at once inscribed, and destined for Gehenna, as we read [Dan. xii. 2]: "And many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The third class, the men between the former two, descend to Gehenna, but they weep and come up again, in accordance with the passage [Zech. xiii. 9]: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; and he shall call on My name, and I will answer him." p. 27
[paragraph continues] Concerning this last class of men Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 6]: "The Lord causeth to die and maketh alive, He bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up again." The school of Hillel says: The Merciful One inclines (the scale of justice) to the side of mercy, and of this third class of men David says [Psalms, cxvi. 1]: "It is lovely to me that the Lord heareth my voice"; in fact, David applies to them the Psalm mentioned down to the words, "Thou hast delivered my soul from death" [ibid. 8].
Transgressors of Jewish birth and also of non-Jewish birth, who sin with their body descend to Gehenna, and are judged there for twelve months; after that time their bodies are destroyed and burnt, and the winds scatter their ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous, as we read [Mal. iii. 23]: "And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet"; but as for Minim, informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces." R. Itz'hac b. Abhin says: "Their faces are black like the sides of a caldron"; while Rabha remarked: "Those who are now the handsomest of the people of Me'huzza will yet be called the children of Gehenna."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[Der Alte]

I do not know nor do I much care what modern Jews, or Muslims, believe about hell. According to the Quran Sura 82 the sun sets in a muddy spring. According to the Hadith, teachings of the prophet, the sun waits under the throne of Allah and asks permission to rise.

I posted historical and scriptural evidence for what the ancient Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed and that is the only beliefs relevant to this forum. Members here can read it or ignore it, their choice.

You are the one that mentioned the Jews in an earlier post so evidently you do care.

Please read those posts and this post again. I made a distinction between, "the ancient Jews before and during the time of Jesus," in my previous posts, and "modern Jews," in the post you quoted here. I am well aware that modern Jews not longer believe, as their forefathers did, in a place of eternal punishment.

 

[Timothew]

For your information and edification historical and scriptural evidence of what, Hillel and Shammai, the two Rabbinical schools in Israel at the time of Jesus taught concerning eternal punishment. Jesus never taught anything which contradicted these.

​

​

Is this the opening paragraph that you are referring to?

I'm not sure what you are saying, Jesus was a student of Hillel and Shammai?

I'm not Jewish, so the viewpoint of 2 Jewish scholars don't mean a lot to me.

Please excuse this observation, but you are rather difficult to understand.

I think I will also bow out of this discussion.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Please read those posts and this post again. I made a distinction between, "the ancient Jews before and during the time of Jesus," in my previous posts, and "modern Jews," in the post you quoted here. I am well aware that modern Jews not longer believe, as their forefathers did, in a place of eternal punishment.

Thank you for that clarification bro

History of God's Holy Bible and the so-called Jews

According to Strong's Greek Lexicon, the English word "Jewry" in this verse was translated from the Greek word #2449 Ioudaia {ee-oo-dah'-yah} feminine for the land of Judea. Modern translations no longer use the word "Jewry" but the correct translation, "Judea," as in the New American Standard Bible: "And after these things Jesus was walking in Galilee; for He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill Him."

The New International Version uses the same word. However, these translations continue to improperly use the word "Jews" in the same verse. A consistent translation would read: ". . . He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Judeans were seeking to kill Him."

 

[Der Alte]

IOW you can't deal with my arguments! Nobody can explain why Jesus never identified Luke 16:19-32 as a parable and never explains it to his disciples. People who claim that a burning hell where people are tormented in flames is a pagan concept cannot explain why Jesus would use something supposedly pagan to reveal truth to this disciples. Also a parable compares something well known with an unknown or misunderstood Biblical truth. What is the well known thing or circumstance in Luke 16, and what is the unknown or misunderstood Biblical truth?

In the Septuagint (the ancient translation of the Old Testament into Greek), the Greek term "ᾅδης" (Hades) is used to translate the Hebrew term "שׁאול" (Sheol) in, for example, Isaiah 38:18).[1] This use refers the term hades to the abode of the dead in general, rather than the abode of the wicked.

This is in Wikipedia under "hades" you might want to edit this because it is obviously wrong according to you. And you wouldn't want others reading it and getting the wrong impression that sheol and hades are not places of eternal torture like you say the bible says all over the place.

I could not care less what is posted at Wiki. Wiki is about a reliable as the scribblings on a public rest room wall. Every page has links, "Edit this." Anybody can post or change anything at any time without any kind of review. And of course this post does not address my post in any way.

The evidence I have posted from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud shows that the ancient Jews before and during the time of Jesus used Gehenna and Sheol interchangeably to refer to the place of eternal punishment. Both articles were supported by scripture. Once again from scripture.

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול[LXX, αδης] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in שאול/Sheol, speaking, being ashamed and comforted.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell[שאול][LXX, αδης]] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

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[Timothew]

The evidence I have posted from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud shows that the ancient Jews before and during the time of Jesus used Gehenna and Sheol interchangeably to refer to the place of eternal punishment. Both articles were supported by scripture. Once again from scripture.

So are you saying that Sheol is the place of torment called Hell?

Are you saying Sheol and Hades are the same place?

Are you saying that Gehenna represents Sheol and Hades?

What about the Lake of Fire, is that also Sheol or is that something else?

I'm trying to get an idea of what YOU believe, because you seem to be the main spokesman for Eternal Torture In Hell. Do the other ETIHs believe the same things you believe, or do they believe something else?