Eternal punishment

[m9lc]

Here's a question for Christians:

Let's say a man spends all of his life raping and killing tens of little girls. He gets caught, and is sentenced to death. However, minutes before his injection, he receives the Gospel and accepts Jesus Christ as his savior. By traditional Christian doctrine, that man is saved and goes to heaven, and experiences the greatest happiness anyone could ever imagine.

Now, here's me, someone who lives a good and moral life, is kind to people, donates to charity, etc., but happens not to believe in any organized religion. Now, traditional Christian doctrine states that I will burn in hell for eternity, undergoing incomprehensible pain that will never, ever end.

Frankly, I don't think anyone in the world deserves to go to Hell forever. Not the worst serial killer, not the worst thief, not the worst rapist, not even Hitler. Maybe they deserve to go to hell for a very long time, hundreds of years maybe, but no one can commit infinite sin; no one deserves to go to Hell for an infinite amount of time.

See my problem here? Please explain to me how this aspect of Christian doctrine, which is arguably the most important, is at all justified.

 

[Merlin]

Both (hypothetically) have sinned and owe a debt which they cannot pay.
Jesus offers to pay the debt.
One accepts the gift Jesus offers.
One rejects the gift.
Simple.

 

[Merlin]

No one really goes to hell 'forever' IMO.
There is no time, therefore no forever.
Simply a state of being.

 

[m9lc]

Both (hypothetically) have sinned and owe a debt which they cannot pay.
Jesus offers to pay the debt.
One accepts the gift Jesus offers.
One rejects the gift.
Simple.

I didn't reject the gift.

I simply don't believe it's there, because your God hasn't shown it to me. It's something like this.

Say I (allegorical symbol for God) saw a starving hobo named Larry on the streets of New York City. I decided to take a briefcase filled with $1 billion and put it under the floorboards of a random apartment somewhere in the city.
Me: Larry, this is your lucky day! I've given you $1 billion!
Larry: Oh, thank you so much! Where is it?
Me: Somewhere in this city.
Larry: Where?
Me: Oh, I'm not telling you.
Larry: But... New York City is huge! I'll never find it.
Me: But it's there!
Larry: How do I even know you even gave me $1 billion? I think you're lying to me.
Me: How dare you question me?! Are you rejecting my gift?? I can't believe you!
Larry: If you'd just tell me where it is, then--
Me: I gave you $1 billion! Do you know how much I worked for this??!!

Doesn't make much sense does it? In this situation, would you say the hobo rejected my gift? Probably not. He simply didn't believe it was there because I gave him no clue as to how to find it, or any proof that I had indeed put that briefcase there.

Not to mention, there are hundreds of religions. Your God expects me to somehow pick the right one. Would your loving, merciful God place my eternal fate on a game of roulette?

 

[Merlin]

I didn't reject the gift.

I simply don't believe it's there, because your God hasn't shown it to me. It's something like this.

Say I (allegorical symbol for God) saw a starving hobo named Larry on the streets of New York City. I decided to take a briefcase filled with $1 billion and put it under the floorboards of a random apartment somewhere in the city.
Me: Larry, this is your lucky day! I've given you $1 billion!
Larry: Oh, thank you so much! Where is it?
Me: Somewhere in this city.
Larry: Where?
Me: Oh, I'm not telling you.
Larry: But... New York City is huge! I'll never find it.
Me: But it's there!
Larry: How do I even know you even gave me $1 billion? I think you're lying to me.
Me: How dare you question me?! Are you rejecting my gift?? I can't believe you!
Larry: If you'd just tell me where it is, then--
Me: I gave you $1 billion! Do you know how much I worked for this??!!

Doesn't make much sense does it? In this situation, would you say the hobo rejected my gift? Probably not. He simply didn't believe it was there because I gave him no clue as to how to find it, or any proof that I had indeed put that briefcase there.

Not to mention, there are hundreds of religions. Your God expects me to somehow pick the right one. Would your loving, merciful God place my eternal fate on a game of roulette?

But it is shown. A whole library of books.
66 in all, called the Bible, where there is detailed information.
And there is this forum, and a gagillion Christians ready to help.

 

[elman]

Here's a question for Christians:

Let's say a man spends all of his life raping and killing tens of little girls. He gets caught, and is sentenced to death. However, minutes before his injection, he receives the Gospel and accepts Jesus Christ as his savior. By traditional Christian doctrine, that man is saved and goes to heaven, and experiences the greatest happiness anyone could ever imagine.

Now, here's me, someone who lives a good and moral life, is kind to people, donates to charity, etc., but happens not to believe in any organized religion. Now, traditional Christian doctrine states that I will burn in hell for eternity, undergoing incomprehensible pain that will never, ever end.

Frankly, I don't think anyone in the world deserves to go to Hell forever. Not the worst serial killer, not the worst thief, not the worst rapist, not even Hitler. Maybe they deserve to go to hell for a very long time, hundreds of years maybe, but no one can commit infinite sin; no one deserves to go to Hell for an infinite amount of time.

See my problem here? Please explain to me how this aspect of Christian doctrine, which is arguably the most important, is at all justified.

I do believe that as long as we are physically alive we have the opportunity to turn to God and repent of our evil deeds and be recreated by God spiritually, having killed ourselves spiritually by our evil deeds. If we do not we do not go to eternal life in pain. We go to eternal death-non existence.

 

[MedicMan]

But it is shown. A whole library of books.
66 in all, called the Bible, where there is detailed information.
And there is this forum, and a gagillion Christians ready to help.

Well said, Merlin. I've heard that argument several times, and it always stems from a lack of understanding.

~MedicMan~

 

[sbvera13]

Ah, the problem of injustice. Happens to be the first thing that steered me away from christianity, and has never been successfully refuted to my knowledge. Also summarizes quickly.

A 100 year lifetime of murder, rape, child abuse, etc, vs infinite suffering= unjust. No finite amount of criminal action can justify infinite suffering. Period. If god is just, he wont send people to hell for eternity. If god sends people to hell for eternity, he is unjust.

 

[Merlin]

Our own goodness or rightness is as wonderful as used toilet paper to God.
Nothing we do is righteous compared to Him.
No hope whatsoever.
Nohing we can do..

So, God Himself demonstrated His love for us by providing a way to become clean again.
That way is Jesus.

 

[m9lc]

But it is shown. A whole library of books.
66 in all, called the Bible, where there is detailed information.
And there is this forum, and a gagillion Christians ready to help.

And how is a contradiction-filled Bible proof of God's existence by any means?

If God appeared before me and told me about how he exists and how his son died for me, don't you think that I would accept his gift and repent of everything I've said? Hell yes. There's no one who wouldn't.

But when he just gives me a 2,000-year-old book filled with stories of miracles which all conveniently leave no physical evidence, along with the fact that there are hundreds of other religions that I have to pick from, how can you say I'm "rejecting" his gift?

You're missing the point. My little story that I told was meant to demonstrate how ridiculous it is to give a great gift to someone, but give no proof that you gave it, and get angry with them when they don't believe you.

 

[levi501]

Your illustration was spot on.
The Christian God has many forms depending on the believer. Many contradict themselves out of existence.
For example, eternity in hell and a fair and just God are mutually exclusive.

 

[elman]

Your illustration was spot on.
The Christian God has many forms depending on the believer. Many contradict themselves out of existence.
For example, eternity in hell and a fair and just God are mutually exclusive.

I agree.

 

[The Nihilist]

Well said, Merlin. I've heard that argument several times, and it always stems from a lack of understanding.

~MedicMan~

Yeah right, MedicMan. Establish the legitimacy of the bible and we'll talk. Until then, the original criticism stands.

 

[Tynan]

No one really goes to hell 'forever' IMO.
There is no time, therefore no forever.
Simply a state of being.

A state of 'being' ?

'Being' is the present participle of be, it is temporal.

A temporal state is incompatible with 'There is no time, therefore no forever.'

This sounds like an extraction of the nonsensical "god is outside of time".

 

[HumbleUnderdog]

And how is a contradiction-filled Bible proof of God's existence by any means?

If God appeared before me and told me about how he exists and how his son died for me, don't you think that I would accept his gift and repent of everything I've said? Hell yes. There's no one who wouldn't.

But when he just gives me a 2,000-year-old book filled with stories of miracles which all conveniently leave no physical evidence, along with the fact that there are hundreds of other religions that I have to pick from, how can you say I'm "rejecting" his gift?

You're missing the point. My little story that I told was meant to demonstrate how ridiculous it is to give a great gift to someone, but give no proof that you gave it, and get angry with them when they don't believe you.

You simply haven't done research, that's all. Here's a good start:

http://www.tektonics.org/

www.leestrobel.com

So you'd be convinced of God's existence if He were to appear before you. Would you be convinced if God were to appear in you? Because that's ultimately what the bible talks about, God coming into your life, or more specifically, your thoughts, personality, attitude, etc.

If you honestly want to "see" God in this way, then all you gotta do is ask God to reveal himself to you personally, that's it. It's so rediculously simple.

Otherwise the proof is out there, it's been around since Christ resurrected.

 

[Tynan]

You simply haven't done research, that's all. Here's a good start:

http://www.tektonics.org/

www.leestrobel.com

For god to become apparent you need to do research ?

So you'd be convinced of God's existence if He were to appear before you.

Of course, if Poseidon appeared before you would you believe in him ?

Would you be convinced if God were to appear in you? Because that's ultimately what the bible talks about, God coming into your life, or more specifically, your thoughts, personality, attitude, etc.

Could you expand on this, explain what the sensations are specifically ?

If you honestly want to "see" God in this way, then all you gotta do is ask God to reveal himself to you personally, that's it. It's so rediculously simple.

If I try and I cannot get this rediculously [sic] simple revelation to manifest itself (within me), what do you suppose the problem might be ?

Otherwise the proof is out there, it's been around since Christ resurrected.

What is the proof ?

 

[Merlin]

A state of 'being' ?

'Being' is the present participle of be, it is temporal.

A temporal state is incompatible with 'There is no time, therefore no forever.'

This sounds like an extraction of the nonsensical "god is outside of time".

No. It's just a limitation of the language we use.

 

[m9lc]

You simply haven't done research, that's all. Here's a good start:

http://www.tektonics.org/

www.leestrobel.com

So you'd be convinced of God's existence if He were to appear before you. Would you be convinced if God were to appear in you? Because that's ultimately what the bible talks about, God coming into your life, or more specifically, your thoughts, personality, attitude, etc.

If you honestly want to "see" God in this way, then all you gotta do is ask God to reveal himself to you personally, that's it. It's so rediculously simple.

Otherwise the proof is out there, it's been around since Christ resurrected.

I love Christians who use this argument, that if you sincerely want to know God, then you will. I can tell from firsthand experience this is false.

It was a long time coming for me to lose my faith. Growing up, I gradually began to lose my faith. When this started happening, I started reading all the books supporting Christianity, surfing the internet looking for evidence.

Anything I found, I could also find atheist rebuttals and then some. And while atheist rebuttals to Christian arguments seemed logical and natural, Christian rebuttals to atheist argments just seemed convoluted and desperate. For instance, why don't you answer me the question: Why doesn't God heal amputees?

Also, please tell me why are you a Christian?

I prayed for God to somehow strengthen my faith. He never did. All I had fluttering through my mind was questions about the world that I couldn't come up with a rationalization for.

Eventually, I had to admit to myself that I didn't believe. All of a sudden, all of these questions left my mind. The world now makes sense to me under the assumption that Christianity is fiction.

You say Christianity will change my life; I disagree. Christianity was a burden to my soul. I've thrown it off and I feel so much better.

 

[dhuisjen2]

I admit to being slightly outside the orthodox view on this one, but my take on heaven and hell is that they have to do with a dynamic of personal connection. I believe that the great big first cause / arch-type for goodness out there is, by an incredibly mysterious mechanism of "his" own doing, available to each and every true seeker (and maybe a bunch of others who "just got lucky") as a spiritual companion and source of purpose in life.

I believe that the experience of spiritual purpose and connection does not depend on the good graces of any religious bureaucracy, but it does require a certain amount of humility and receptiveness before that highest being. From there it is a question of what Kierkegaard infamously called "the leap of faith."

I believe that those who, through such a leap, discover purpose and meaning in their life, will experience a far stronger connection with that spiritual source once their human life is over. I believe that the soul which does not establish any connection with its "true source" within this lifetime is doomed to a process of progressive and unending dying, rather like a radioactive isotope, once its physical existence is over. These, to me, are the true meanings of heaven and hell. Both are experienced here on Earth, for sure; both will be experienced far more intensely in the after-life.

I believe that it is possible (though unlikely) for the serial rapist, Hitler or even my ex-mother-in-law to, at the end of their lives, realize that they've done some radically messed up stuff, and call out for forgiveness and acceptance from God. I believe that God would still accept that person if (big if!) through his perfect knowledge of these things he could see a sincere heart (as opposed to the schemer who wants to have his cake and eat it too).

I also believe it is possible for someone to live an outwardly good life, but to be so full of himself in the process that seeking for meaning in life, purpose and connection with matters beyond himself would never even occur to him. I believe that his soul could seriously be at risk.

But unlike many (most?) Christians, I don't believe that God limits his grace to those who can recite the correct formulas or properly pronounce strategic names at strategic moments. I believe that there can be many who never heard the name of Jesus, but who called out for mercy to the supreme spiritual being by whatever cultural labels they had available to them, and because of the same miracle of grace that "saves" Christians, these people too have a connection with God and are now "in heaven".

I realize that many people never call on the name of Jesus because of all of the corruption and power-mongers associated with that name throughout history. On behalf of those who have so misused the name "Christian" I deeply apologize to all those who feel that way. I believe that God is capable of taking all of these matters into consideration when he judges each person's soul.

I cannot prove any of this, but this is the inspiration that my own reading of the Bible and my own understanding of the (best part of the) Christian tradition gives to me.

If each of us looks after our own sincere search for God, and accepts that before "him" alone each of us stands or falls, most of the arguments on the matter become fairly redundant.

Does this way of thinking make sense to anyone else here?

 

[HumbleUnderdog]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HumbleUnderdog
You simply haven't done research, that's all. Here's a good start:

http://www.tektonics.org/

www.leestrobel.com


For god to become apparent you need to do research ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HumbleUnderdog
So you'd be convinced of God's existence if He were to appear before you.

Of course, if Poseidon appeared before you would you believe in him ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HumbleUnderdog
Would you be convinced if God were to appear in you? Because that's ultimately what the bible talks about, God coming into your life, or more specifically, your thoughts, personality, attitude, etc.

Could you expand on this, explain what the sensations are specifically ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HumbleUnderdog
If you honestly want to "see" God in this way, then all you gotta do is ask God to reveal himself to you personally, that's it. It's so rediculously simple.

If I try and I cannot get this rediculously [sic] simple revelation to manifest itself (within me), what do you suppose the problem might be ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HumbleUnderdog
Otherwise the proof is out there, it's been around since Christ resurrected.

What is the proof ?

First, evidence is necessary to have faith, since faith is based on evidence. One way of finding evidence is research. But no research isn't necessary, but in your case it might be.

The 'sensations' of God coming into your life is a big big change in priorities, attitude, thoughts, cognition, behaviour, motivation, inspiration, patience, mega-inner peace, emotional stability, mega-less pride. When ppl have God come into their life, these are the first things that they notice.

From my first-hand experience, I noticed a boost in motivation, and didn't feel depressed for the first time in about 5 years. All I did was pray and ask God to reveal himself to me if He cared about me.

If I try and I cannot get this rediculously [sic] simple revelation to manifest itself (within me), what do you suppose the problem might be ?

The problem would be that you are trying to do it, and not letting God do it for you. When God is in your life, you allow Him to lead you by letting him do things for you. Just like when you're thirsty and you want a glass of water. When you ask someone to bring you some water, you don't then get up and go get the water yourself. You wait until that person hands you the glass, then you take it and drink it.

It's the same way with a relationship with Jesus, he provides us with "living water", he hands us the cup, and we drink it.

As for proof, I gave you those two links, they're really good starting points. Good luck!