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Eternal punishment??

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cygnusx1

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The Nature Of The Soul And
Eternal Punishment

Among the most fundamental questions of religion are those pertaining to human nature, the consequences of evil, and the destiny of human beings after death. There are substantial differences between the teachings of the Watchtower and those of orthodox Christianity on these issues, yet both claim to accurately interpret Scripture and represent apostolic teaching.
The Watchtower Society denies the existence of the soul as a separable entity from the body that survives death. Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that the term soul refers to the whole person, composed of a physical body and an impersonal "spirit" or life force. At death, a person ceases to exist except in the memory of God; the life force does not survive death but its energy returns to God. 20 While Witnesses nominally believe in a resurrection of the righteous, it is in reality a recreation, wherein God creates a new person from the pattern of that individual in His memory. 21
The idea of hell as a place of conscious eternal punishment for the wicked has always been anathema to Jehovah’s Witnesses. They believe the biblical terms for hell (sheol in the Old Testament, hades and gehenna in the New Testament) refer only to the common grave of humankind. Using their ubiquitous yardstick of biblical interpretation — their own human reason — they assert that a God of love would never condemn humans to an eternity of fiery torment. The fate of the wicked is nonexistence, with no hope of resurrection to Jehovah’s paradise on earth.
The Witnesses believe that the doctrines of a soul that survives death and a hell where the wicked are punished eternally arose from Platonic influences within an apostate church, and they are not representative of the beliefs or teachings of the apostles or early Christians. Does early Christian literature substantiate their claim to have a true biblical and apostolic understanding of these doctrines?
Discussion of the soul occurs frequently in the postapostolic literature. There are different meanings for soul depending on the context in which it is used. The fathers sometimes used the term to refer to the entire person. Their understanding, however, was not confined to this use.
Martyrdom was common in the widespread persecution of the early church. The courage of the martyrs was based on their faith in Christ their Savior and their conviction that death would immediately usher them into His presence. Polycarp, a disciple of the apostle John, was one of the early church’s great martyrs. At the time of his death, his prayer expressed a hope not only in resurrection, but also that he would stand in the presence of Christ after his sacrifice: "I bless Thee, because Thou hast deemed me worthy this day and hour, to take my part among the number of the martyrs in the cup of thy Christ, for ‘resurrection to eternal life’ of soul and body...may I be received in thy presence this day as a rich and acceptable sacrifice." 22
Ignatius likewise manifested this hope at the time of his martyrdom: "I would rather that you fawn on the beasts so that they may be my tomb and no scrap of my body be left. Thus, when I have fallen asleep...shall I be a real disciple of Jesus Christ when the world sees my body no more." 23
Similar references are common in the postapostolic literature. Typical of the early church’s teaching on the soul is a passage from Justin Martyr, a convert from pagan philosophy who also suffered martyrdom: "Look at the end of each of the former emperors, how they died the common death of all; and if this were merely a departure into unconsciousness, that would be a piece of luck for the wicked. But since consciousness continues for all who have lived, and eternal punishment awaits....All this should convince you that souls are still conscious after death....We look forward to receiving again our own bodies, though they be dead and buried in the earth." 24
In contrast to passages such as those above, there is no literary or historical evidence for any early Christian group teaching soul sleep. The belief in a soul that survives death is ubiquitous in the writings of the early church. It is not credible to say that a theology of soul sleep and an impersonal life force reflects apostolic teaching when such concepts appear nowhere in the writings of apostolic disciples or others in the early church.
As with Justin Martyr above, the punishment of the wicked after death is also a common topic in the literature of the church before Nicaea. There is no indication that the early church believed the wicked were punished by annihilation. Rather, the conscious punishment of those who reject Christ and fail to repent permeates the evangelism of this period. The early church was not reticent about teaching the consequences of sin for the unrepentant.
A few passages speak of the destruction of the wicked. The Epistle of Barnabas, for example, says, "For it is a way of eternal death with punishment wherein are the things that destroy men’s souls." 25 Such affirmations taken in isolation might seem to support the doctrine of soul sleep. Yet when the broader context is examined, the fathers did not believe that "eternal death" or "destruction" meant cessation of existence, but rather a state of eternal separation from God — the antithesis of the perfection achieved when a faithful Christian is joined eternally with God in heaven.
The early church believed the wicked would receive an eternity of torment and punishment. Clement, the third bishop of Rome, said, "It is better for a man to confess of his sins than to harden his heart in the way those rebels against God’s servant Moses hardened theirs. The verdict against them was made very plain. For ‘they went down to Hades alive.’" 26 Similarly, the author of 2 Clement, an early Christian homily, said, "But the righteous...when they shall behold them that have done amiss and denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds, how that they are punished with grievous torments in unquenchable fire, shall give glory to God." 27
The author of The Martyrdom of Polycarp describes in detail the death of John’s disciple, and says this of the motivation behind Christian martyrdom: "And giving themselves over to the grace of Christ, they despised the tortures of this world, purchasing for themselves...life eternal. To them the fire of their inhuman tortures was cold, for they set before their eyes escape from the fire that is everlasting and never quenched." 28
Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp — described by the Watchtower as one "who boldly spoke out in favor of the inspired written Word of God rather than the traditions of men" 29 — said this about the fate of the unrepentant: "The Church...received from the apostles...its faith...that [Christ] may make just judgment of them all; and that He may send the spiritual forces of wickedness...and the impious, unjust, lawless and blasphemous among men, into everlasting fire." 30
It is clear from these and many other references that the early church, citing apostolic teaching as its source, believed that those who failed to repent were destined for conscious eternal torment in hell. They ridiculed the pagan notion that the wicked would be annihilated and cease to exist, asserting that this would be an unjust end for those who pursued wickedness and the pleasures of this world. Just as they believed that faithful Christians would be eternally in the presence of God, they were convinced that the wicked would suffer an eternity of torment apart from Him. The Watchtower teaching on the annihilation of the wicked quite simply has no historical precedent in the early church.

http://www.cephasministry.com/jw_faith_of_our_fathers_2.html
 
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Prophetable

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None of the early Fathers defined Aionios as being endless. We've done that in our subsequent translations. There is no evidence to suggest the early church defined the Lake of Fire as endless. The previous posting is misleading.

They didn't have English back then. They used the phrase Aionios punishment- Along the way we've suddenly decided it meant endless.
 
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Prophetable

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cygnusx1 said:
endless torement is not none existence (death) ..... it is a type where the 'living' (the worm) dieth not!


we are never told to flee death but we are told to flee from the wrath to come!

If sinners are raised to be annihilated , why should they fear that ??? .......... they are going to die anyway!

You need to understand that the scriptures clearly teach that Death will no longer exist. It will be defeated. This includes the death that transpires in the Lake of Fire, which is spiritual death. It will come to an end. Sinners should still fear because the punishment/wrath will not be pleasant. They do not know

A) It's exact duration.
B) It's intensity.

In addition, even before the Lake of Fire the soul of the unbeliever will be in Hades awaiting judgement.
 
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cygnusx1

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Prophetable said:
You need to understand that the scriptures clearly teach that Death will no longer exist. It will be defeated. This includes the death that transpires in the Lake of Fire, which is spiritual death. It will come to an end. Sinners should still fear because the punishment/wrath will not be pleasant. They do not know

A) It's exact duration.
B) It's intensity.

In addition, even before the Lake of Fire the soul of the unbeliever will be in Hades awaiting judgement.


Jesus described hell in such graphic terms that no-one ever gets out , it is unremmitting suffering , anguish , wailing , gnashing of teeth , darkness , and torment , this is not a quick episode followed by annihilation , but will last as long as the debt does ..... the guy was cast into prison until every penny was paid ..... ie , never!

There are three positions .

Annihilation .
Universalism
Eternal Torment

I can not see anyone fearing the first two ....... however "unpleasent" you may want to say they are they don't even come anywhere near inspiring fear ......

Is not death a seperation of body and spirit ..... then of course there will be no more death !

If all debts are cancelled ...... (annihilation ) then Universalism is an obvious outcome!
 
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Prophetable

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cygnusx1 said:
Jesus described hell in such graphic terms that no-one ever gets out , it is unremmitting suffering , anguish , wailing , gnashing of teeth , darkness , and torment , this is not a quick episode followed by annihilation , but will last as long as the debt does ..... the guy was cast into prison until every penny was paid ..... ie , never!

There are three positions .

Annihilation .
Universalism
Eternal Torment

I can not see anyone fearing the first two ....... however "unpleasent" you may want to say they are they don't even come anywhere near inspiring fear ......

Is not death a seperation of body and spirit ..... then of course there will be no more death !

If all debts are cancelled ...... (annihilation ) then Universalism is an obvious outcome!

The duration of the punishment does not depend on your ideologies of how much fear people need to have of punishment.

It depends on God's truth and justice.

The words eternal, forever - as derived from Aeonios have been proven to mean an undefined long period of time, but not endless.

Also, you can't see people fearing the Lake of Fire??? People fear mans prisons. How much more should they fear God's? It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a Living God, regardless of the duration of the punishment.

The Lake of Fire is the second death. Death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire. Is death going to perpetuate in the Lake of Fire? No, it will be burnt up and defeated.

Jesus never described Hell as no one gets out, or as endless. Our faulty translation of the word Aeonios has made it appear that way.

Matthew 5:26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last farthing.

Why do you assume Jesus is speaking about Hell here?
How do you know he isn't discussing wisdom on dealing with conflict? Even if he was speaking of Hell, he was doing so metaphorically. Your commentary on it to support endless hell is really flaky and inconclusive. All Jesus was saying in a nutshell was "You will pay".
 
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cygnusx1

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Prophetable said:
The duration of the punishment does not depend on your ideologies of how much fear people need to have of punishment.

It depends on God's truth and justice.

The words eternal, forever - as derived from Aeonios have been proven to mean an undefined long period of time, but not endless.
then your time in heaven will be finite!!! :D


Also, you can't see people fearing the Lake of Fire??? People fear mans prisons. How much more should they fear God's? It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a Living God, regardless of the duration of the punishment.

so let me get this straight men should fear God because they are going to be annihilated and know nothing of wailing and gnashing ..... sounds OK to me , and we are going to die anyways so , nothing new about that!

The Lake of Fire is the second death. Death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire. Is death going to perpetuate in the Lake of Fire? No, it will be burnt up and defeated.

Of course , otherwise sinners would cease to exist!
we are differing over the meaning of death ....... you see it that death is the same as eternal living torment .... I see it as a seperation from God , and a seperation of body and spirit , both of these are finite!

Jesus never described Hell as no one gets out, or as endless. Our faulty translation of the word Aeonios has made it appear that way.

Matthew 5:26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last farthing.

Why do you assume Jesus is speaking about Hell here?
do you know another prison where men are kept for refusing to forgive others ???
Perhaps your local jail ? :D


How do you know he isn't discussing wisdom on dealing with conflict? Even if he was speaking of Hell, he was doing so metaphorically. Your commentary on it to support endless hell is really flaky and inconclusive. All Jesus was saying in a nutshell was "You will pay".
oh yes , the old "metaphorically" switch ............ then heaven is a metaphor too!

Do you remember the rich man without any name , pleading for some water for his tongue , asking if it is possible for someone to go back and warn his loved ones to avoid this place of torment ....he seems pretty conscious to me ..... his request was rejected ... this is an interesting picture that Jesus openly used to warn men of a place where the worm dieth not ...


I suppose you think Satan , the devil is also annhilated in the lake too!

the wages of sin is death followed by resurrection followed by a quick dip in the lake of fire ....... and then nothing just oblivion ... possible but I don't buy it!

Scripture indicates different levels of suffering in the afterlife for those who are not saved , not a quick snuffing out of all sinners.



hell-eternal-mt-25-46.gif

Heaven and Hell are same duration
Eternal/forever
Greek
Used of heaven
Used of hell
aion

  1. Mt 25:46 but the righteous into life eternal.
    [*]Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life
    eternal.
    [*]2 Thess 1:9 "these will pay the penalty of
    eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord
    [*]Mt 25:41 "Depart from me, ye cursed, into
    everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"
    [*]Jude 13 "for whom the black darkness has been reserved
    forever"
aionios

  1. Lk 18:30 in the age to come, eternal life.
    [*]Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up
    forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night
    [*]Rev 20:10 they will be tormented day and night
    forever and ever.
http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm
 
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cygnusx1

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Is annihilationism Biblical?
1x1-blue.gif
Question: "Is annihilationism Biblical?"

Answer: Annihilationism is the belief that unbelievers will not experience an eternity of suffering in hell, but will rather be “extinguished” after death. A belief in annihilationism is a result in a misunderstanding of one or more of the following doctrines: (1) the consequences of sin, (2) the justice of God, (3) the nature of Hell.

In relation to the nature of Hell, annihilationists misunderstand the meaning of the lake of fire. Obviously if a human being were cast into a lake of burning lava, they would be instantly consumed. However, the lake of fire is both a physical and spiritual realm. It is not simply a human body being cast into the lake of fire, it is a human’s body, soul, and spirit. A spiritual nature cannot be consumed by physical fire. It seems that the unsaved are resurrected with a body prepared for eternity just as the saved are (Revelation 20:13; Acts 24:15). These bodies are prepared for an eternal fate.

Eternity is another aspect annihilationism fails to adequately comprehend. Annihilationists are correct that the Greek word “aionion,” which is usually translated eternal, does not by definition mean eternal. It specifically refers to an “age” or “eon,” a specific period of time. However, it is clear that in New Testament usage “aionion” is used to refer to an eternal amount of time. Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being tormented “day and night forever and ever.” It is clear that these three are not “extinguished” by being cast into the lake of fire. Why would the fate of the unsaved be any different (Revelation 20:14-15)? The most convincing evidence for the eternality of Hell is Matthew 25:46, “Then they (the wicked) will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the exact same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in Heaven for an age. If believers will be in Heaven forever, unbelievers will be in Hell forever.

Another frequent objection to the eternality of Hell by annihilationists is that it would be unjust for God to punish unbelievers in Hell for eternity for a finite amount of sin. How could it be fair for God to punish a person who lived a sinful life, for say 70 years, for all of eternity? The answer is this – our sin bears an eternal consequence because it is ultimately against an eternal God. When King David committed the sins of adultery and murder he stated, “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight…” (Psalm 51:4). David had sinned against Bathsheba and Uriah, how could David claim to have only sinned against God? David understood that all sin is ultimately against God. God is an eternal and infinite Being. As a result, all sin is worthy of an eternal punishment. An earthly example of this would be comparing attacking your neighbor and attacking the President of the United States. Yes, both are crimes, but attacking the President would result in far greater consequences. How much more does sin against a holy and infinite God warrant a terrible consequence?

A more personal aspect of annihilationism is the idea that we could not possibly be happy in Heaven if we knew that some of our loved ones we suffering an eternity of torment in Hell. When we arrive in Heaven, we will not have anything to complain about or be saddened by. Revelation 21:4 tells us, “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” If some of our loved ones are not in Heaven, we will be in 100% complete agreement that they do not belong there – that they are condemned by their own refusal to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior (John 3:16; John 14:6). It is hard to understand this, but we will not be saddened by the lack of their presence. Our focus should not be on how we can enjoy Heaven without all of our loved ones there, but rather on how we can point our loved ones to faith in Christ – so that they will be there.

Hell is perhaps the primary reason why God sent Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins. Being “extinguished” after death is no fate to dread, but an eternity in Hell most definitely is. Jesus’ death was an infinite death, paying our infinite sin debt – so that we would not have to pay it in Hell for eternity (2 Corinthians 5:21). All we must do is place our faith in Him and we are saved, forgiven, cleansed, and promised an eternal home in heaven. God loved us so much to provide for our salvation. If we reject His gift of eternal life, we will face the eternal consequences of that decision.

http://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html
 
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Prophetable

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cygnusx1 said:
then your time in heaven will be finite!!! :D

No, you have no grounds to make that claim. If you had read all my posts clearly concerning aeonioslife you would understand why.
Heaven and the state of the immortal, glorified body are clearly portrayed as being endless, without needing to use the word eternal (aeonios).
Your mistake is in using the word eternal to define the life and punishment as in eternal life and eternal punishment. It does not define them, it describes them. There is a difference.

To say that the life is Age-enduring life, doesn't mean that it isn't endless.


cygnusx1 said:
so let me get this straight men should fear God because they are going to be annihilated and know nothing of wailing and gnashing ..... sounds OK to me , and we are going to die anyways so , nothing new about that!

Are you reading my posts or just assuming my position on this? I've made it clear there will be suffering and punishment - Also that it will be extremely fearful.
There will be an end to the punishment however.


cygnusx1 said:
Of course , otherwise sinners would cease to exist!
we are differing over the meaning of death ....... you see it that death is the same as eternal living torment .... I see it as a seperation from God , and a seperation of body and spirit , both of these are finite!

No I don't see death as "eternal" living torment.
I see death as aeonios living torment. There will be an end to it. Eternal does not mean endless.
Seperation from God is death.





cygnusx1 said:
oh yes , the old "metaphorically" switch ............ then heaven is a metaphor too!

Do you remember the rich man without any name , pleading for some water for his tongue , asking if it is possible for someone to go back and warn his loved ones to avoid this place of torment ....he seems pretty conscious to me ..... his request was rejected ... this is an interesting picture that Jesus openly used to warn men of a place where the worm dieth not ...


I suppose you think Satan , the devil is also annhilated in the lake too!

the wages of sin is death followed by resurrection followed by a quick dip in the lake of fire ....... and then nothing just oblivion ... possible but I don't buy it!

Scripture indicates different levels of suffering in the afterlife for those who are not saved , not a quick snuffing out of all sinners.

As you say, the Rich man and Lazarus is not a metaphor. It is a parable describing Hades, no doubt.
But to compare the "jailer" metaphor to this and Heaven is a big stretch.

Whoever said a quick snuffing out?? Have you read my postings thoroughly.

God will punish the wicked but it will not be endless.

This includes Satan. God will not allow wickedness of any shape or form to remain indefinately. It will all be done away with.
 
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march56

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Soon Rev 22:11-12 said:
"Immortality: Conditional or Innate." Gives 265 verses from 158 chapters from 35 books of the Bible. These verses indicate that immortality is indeed conditional. "What Is the Soul and Spirit?" Gives 157 verses from the Bible which use the Hebrew and Greek words for "soul" and "spirit" in ways that do not harmonize with the common concept of death.
Immortality,for the soul, is the nature of a soul but the choice of where to spend eternity is up to each one of us to determine beforehand. So we better get right with God!
-M.C.
 
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GeorgeE

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Fire (Greek) "pur" we get our English words to purify, purge, pure and for the Catholics pugatory

In my study of the lake that burns with fire and brimstone I was very much helped and impressed by the understanding given by Charles Pridgeon and I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of
BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it"
 
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GeorgeE

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If you look at the word goat in the Greek it is kid; which is a baby goat.

Sheep Separated from Goats

Matthew 25 Wycliffe 32 and all folks shall be gathered before him, and he shall separate them atwain, as a shepherd separateth sheep from kids [and he shall part them atwain, as a shepherd parteth sheep from kids];
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right half, and the kids on the left half [and the kids forsooth on his left half].
 
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slobythesea

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son said:
After reading all the posts on eternal punishment, i questioned whether it really exists. Isn't God a loving God and he is equal to all? If he is, why did he chose to forgive the christians but not the non-christians? I believe that there will be punishments but there will be forgiveness.

In the revelation, chapter 21 says that there will be a new heaven and a new earth, so it means that when this happens, there will be no nashing of teeth or tears and this will be the perfect world. Since there is not suffering anymore, will there be eternal punishment?

Many times, in the Old T, God says he will destroy jerusalem, but until now, Israel exists. It is because he left renmant behind to establish this city again. So God is a forgiving God.

So if God is a forgiving God, why did he chose not to forgive the wicked people or the non-christians? To the non-christians, there may be people who thirst for God's words but they went to the wrong way, or couldn't find the right path. So, for those people, do you think that they will go to hell?

In the New T where Jesus is still alive, he stopped the people from stoning the adulterous woman. why is that so? He should be helping the Israelites to stone her right? It is because of the compassion God had towards her.

Also, as Christians, do not think that we are saved from hell. there are many times where we sinned but we do not repent. So how are we different from the non-christians? If we continue to sin although we believe in God, how are we different from the people who are non-christians? And do we really believe in him? Or it is just that if we believe in him our sins will be washed away?

So, if that is the case, we, christians, also have to suffer the punishments too, since inwardly, we are like non-christians.
So, we must be like a christian inward and outwardly, because God sees our heart, not the actions nor deeds. now, if a non-christians has a golden heart, do you think he will go through the etneral punishment?

(sorry to all who have read my message, as this is qute long. And if i am wrong, please feel free to correct me. thanks)

In christ,
son, who was once a servant of God and was raised by God and was treated like a son though i am a servant.
Hi God Bless you.Psalms119:89,12:7.So His Word endures,He can not lie.His Words are pure,Psalms 12:6-7. So Why would He tell us of eternal judgment Luke 16:19-31.I only know the mysteries of God are beyond my understanding in many places,that is why He gave me a KJV Bible and I take all it says on faith.
 
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