Eternal punishment??

[son]

After reading all the posts on eternal punishment, i questioned whether it really exists. Isn't God a loving God and he is equal to all? If he is, why did he chose to forgive the christians but not the non-christians? I believe that there will be punishments but there will be forgiveness.

In the revelation, chapter 21 says that there will be a new heaven and a new earth, so it means that when this happens, there will be no nashing of teeth or tears and this will be the perfect world. Since there is not suffering anymore, will there be eternal punishment?

Many times, in the Old T, God says he will destroy jerusalem, but until now, Israel exists. It is because he left renmant behind to establish this city again. So God is a forgiving God.

So if God is a forgiving God, why did he chose not to forgive the wicked people or the non-christians? To the non-christians, there may be people who thirst for God's words but they went to the wrong way, or couldn't find the right path. So, for those people, do you think that they will go to hell?

In the New T where Jesus is still alive, he stopped the people from stoning the adulterous woman. why is that so? He should be helping the Israelites to stone her right? It is because of the compassion God had towards her.

Also, as Christians, do not think that we are saved from hell. there are many times where we sinned but we do not repent. So how are we different from the non-christians? If we continue to sin although we believe in God, how are we different from the people who are non-christians? And do we really believe in him? Or it is just that if we believe in him our sins will be washed away?

So, if that is the case, we, christians, also have to suffer the punishments too, since inwardly, we are like non-christians.
So, we must be like a christian inward and outwardly, because God sees our heart, not the actions nor deeds. now, if a non-christians has a golden heart, do you think he will go through the etneral punishment?

(sorry to all who have read my message, as this is qute long. And if i am wrong, please feel free to correct me. thanks)

In christ,
son, who was once a servant of God and was raised by God and was treated like a son though i am a servant.

 

[FreezBee]

So, if that is the case, we, christians, also have to suffer the punishments too, since inwardly, we are like non-christians.
So, we must be like a christian inward and outwardly, because God sees our heart, not the actions nor deeds. now, if a non-christians has a golden heart, do you think he will go through the etneral punishment?

Well, there are various theories about this. In the OT is mentioned Sheol, a place of rest for the dead, neither heaven nor hell. Some say that Jesus will preach for the dead here, even for the those who never heard the gospel in their life. But this is v e r y controversial, and I'm not sure if this line of thinking is considered compatible with orthodox Christianity.

- FreezBee

 

[Soon Rev 22:11-12]

"Immortality: Conditional or Innate." Gives 265 verses from 158 chapters from 35 books of the Bible. These verses indicate that immortality is indeed conditional. "What Is the Soul and Spirit?" Gives 157 verses from the Bible which use the Hebrew and Greek words for "soul" and "spirit" in ways that do not harmonize with the common concept of death.

 

[ILoveYeshua]

God's vengeance shall burn forever against those who hate him. they wanted nothing to do with him even though he gave them life, they will get their wish and have no part in him or his joy. God respects our choice to love or hate him, and rewards us accordingly.

 

[pastorkevin73]

Take a look at the concordance at the back of your bible, even check out an exhastive concordance and look up 'hell'. If you have a bible software (you can download e-sword for free at e-sword.net) and do a search on the same word. Also check out the word 'sin'. The answer will become very clear.

 

[son]

erm... I don't think there is any condition for us. Instead, i believe very much in forgiveness. In regards of love, there is no condition in anything. God loves us but there is no reason why God chose to love us right? We are so bad and does not worth his love in any view if there is a condition. No, God does not love us with condition. Since he does not love us with conditions, why does he set condition for people to go to his home, kingdom of god? So, I believe that there is no condition set by God. The condition I believe is something that we OUGHT to be, and that is not a condition at all. We are fallen, so we need to get back to the original path. If we regard that as a condition, it means that it is a rule set by God. No, it is something that we should be from the start, it is just that we are not used to it.

Second, God does NOT hate man. We must always know and understand this. God Hates only lies, sins and anything that associates with that. A sinful person. It means everyone of us(except Jesus and God^^). If there is anyone who rebukes this, I have nothing to say. But a sinful person does not mean that he is wicked.

I confessed that I hated God very much, since I was young. Why does God gave me such a world to live in? Why am i born in this world then? I have seen so many things that I am helpless to do, and I blamed and hated god for this. So God will send me to hell right? If that is the case, why am i sitting here happily typing? I was once the wicked person who involves in pagaism but why am i a christian now? I am supposed to be hated by God right?

God is the one who forgives, yes. I have been called by God and I continues to do this deed and this righteous. It is because God loves me, yes, he does. Jesus said once, I have come to called the sick, sinners, not the healthy ones. So, he had called me. I hated him to the core when i was young but i was chosen to be a part of his community. That is because i repent. repentance is very important. So, the ones who hate God does not mean that he will go to hell, right? because there will be salvation.

what is the meaning of hell? I do not know. I confess. Does it mean eternal fire? You must correct me if i am wrong, because i am little in faith. Sometimes I wonder what does it mean to be in hell. the bible is not something that can be interpret by man. that is wrong. the only way to interpret is through Holy Spirit. In case i am wrong, sins means that the things that are wrong and is against the true nature of man. some things that are not sins to few may be a sin to others and vice versa. it depends on how you explain. But what I think is that God is a loving, forgiving God. We are bad, sinners but he always forgives. It says alot of times the wicked will be sent to hell. what is the meaning of wicked? it means that he is a big sinner, that he sinned alot? No, it is that the heart is wicked. Jesus once said, whatever dirty things you eat will not come out of the mouth. But the dirty things in the heart will come out the mouth. on the outside, it seems that the ones who sins and do not repent will be sent to hell. But god looks the heart. people who sin the same thing does not mean that all are wicked. So, don't look at the outside, whether the person is christian or not, but look at the heart. Christians are not the saying that once you are a christian, you will be saved. But being christians and understand the words(bible) changes the heart to be compassion and kind. and that is why christians can be saved.

 

[depthdeception]

erm... I don't think there is any condition for us. Instead, i believe very much in forgiveness. In regards of love, there is no condition in anything. God loves us but there is no reason why God chose to love us right? We are so bad and does not worth his love in any view if there is a condition. No, God does not love us with condition. Since he does not love us with conditions, why does he set condition for people to go to his home, kingdom of god? So, I believe that there is no condition set by God. The condition I believe is something that we OUGHT to be, and that is not a condition at all. We are fallen, so we need to get back to the original path. If we regard that as a condition, it means that it is a rule set by God. No, it is something that we should be from the start, it is just that we are not used to it.

You have rightly noted that God's love is unconditional. However, God's forgiveness is also unconditional. If God's forgiveness of humanity were based on any condition other than God's unsearchable love for creation, none would be saved. Not even repentance is a "condition" for forgiveness, as evidenced in Jesus' forgiveness of his murderers even as they were nailing him to the cross and spitting in his face. So then, God's forgiveness extends to all humanity, without exception.

However, the problem of humanity is sin, which is nothing more than being separated from God. Although God's forgiveness makes reconciliation with God (the answer to sin) possible, forgiveness in and of itself does not restore relationship. Therefore, it is quite possible to affirm that God has forgiven all, but that not all will be reconciled to God--simply because they do not desire to be in relationship with God.

Second, God does NOT hate man.

Very true. God loves all that God has created, and seeks with all God's being to reconcile that which God has created to Godself.

what is the meaning of hell? I do not know. I confess. Does it mean eternal fire? You must correct me if i am wrong, because i am little in faith. Sometimes I wonder what does it mean to be in hell. the bible is not something that can be interpret by man. that is wrong. the only way to interpret is through Holy Spirit. In case i am wrong, sins means that the things that are wrong and is against the true nature of man. some things that are not sins to few may be a sin to others and vice versa. it depends on how you explain. But what I think is that God is a loving, forgiving God. We are bad, sinners but he always forgives. It says alot of times the wicked will be sent to hell. what is the meaning of wicked? it means that he is a big sinner, that he sinned alot? No, it is that the heart is wicked. Jesus once said, whatever dirty things you eat will not come out of the mouth. But the dirty things in the heart will come out the mouth. on the outside, it seems that the ones who sins and do not repent will be sent to hell. But god looks the heart. people who sin the same thing does not mean that all are wicked. So, don't look at the outside, whether the person is christian or not, but look at the heart. Christians are not the saying that once you are a christian, you will be saved. But being christians and understand the words(bible) changes the heart to be compassion and kind. and that is why christians can be saved.

A huge misconception by many in Christianity is 1.) that God sends people to hell and 2.) that hell is a "punishment," something that God does to humans because they are sinners.

1.) God does not send anyone to hell. Hell is nothing more than being separated from God (sinfulness). As God has shown in Christ that GOd desires the salvation and restoration of relationship with all that God has created, it is nonsensical to concomitantly affirm that God "changes God's mind" and decides to send people to hell. No, if people experience hell, it is precisely because they have refused the overwhelming grace and forgiveness which God has displayed in Christ through the Incarnation. If people experience hell, it is because they desire, not because God does.

2.) Nor is hell a punishment. Again, God desires nothing less than restored relationship with all that God has created. God has shown this desire ultimately in the universe-altering expression of grace in the Incarnation of Christ. So if God desires relationship with that which God has created, what does God gain by seeking to "punish" those with whom God desires relationship? Such would be like the jealous person killing his lover because she does not not want to be with him, and he can't stomach the thought of her loving someone else besides him. Moreover, the disasterous effects of separation from God (hell) are natural consequences. To be separated from God is to be cut off from ultimate life and felicity. Therefore, humanity in its sinfulness has already borne the full consequences of sin simply because of its separation from God--there is no need for God to "heap" extra punishment on the sinner, as such an "increase" is actually not possible (for separation from God is the ultimate hell). So then, as God's desire is for relationship with humanity, and humanity's sinfulness is in itself the ultimate suffering, there is no reason to believe that God punishes. Rather, to experience hell would be to simply experience the natural consequences of being separated from God.

 

[son]

Good saying!!!

But I still don't understand Hell nor Heaven... Please explain to me.. ^^ thanks

 

[pastorkevin73]

erm... I don't think there is any condition for us. Instead, i believe very much in forgiveness. In regards of love, there is no condition in anything. God loves us but there is no reason why God chose to love us right? We are so bad and does not worth his love in any view if there is a condition. No, God does not love us with condition. Since he does not love us with conditions, why does he set condition for people to go to his home, kingdom of god? So, I believe that there is no condition set by God. The condition I believe is something that we OUGHT to be, and that is not a condition at all. We are fallen, so we need to get back to the original path. If we regard that as a condition, it means that it is a rule set by God. No, it is something that we should be from the start, it is just that we are not used to it.

Second, God does NOT hate man. We must always know and understand this. God Hates only lies, sins and anything that associates with that. A sinful person. It means everyone of us(except Jesus and God^^). If there is anyone who rebukes this, I have nothing to say. But a sinful person does not mean that he is wicked.

You are correct when you say that God does not hate man. We are His creation and He does not hate what He has created. However, this doesn't mean that there isn't punishment for not accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Rom 3:23 says:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Another poster is correct that sin seperates us from God. However, on judgement day, if we haven't accept Jesus as our Savior from sin then we will be in hell. On judgement day death is hell.

Hell is mentioned 14 times in the NT, hades (also known as hell) is mentioned 9 times in the NT and lake of fire (also known as hell) is mentioned 4 times in Revelation.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lakeoffire.

On judgement day, if we have as Paul says in Rom 10:9,10

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

then we will be with Jesus in heaven.

Joh 6:58This is the bread that came down from heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
The bread mentioned in this passage refers to Jesus.

 

[pastorkevin73]

the bible is not something that can be interpret by man. that is wrong. the only way to interpret is through Holy Spirit.

Be careful with this statement. True it is the Holy Spirit who opens our eyes in order to interpret the Word, but that doesn't mean that man should not attempt to interpret scripture. It just means that we have to rely on the Holy Spirit to, as just mentioned, open our eyes to what God means and wants us to understand and apply.

 

[depthdeception]

Good saying!!!

But I still don't understand Hell nor Heaven... Please explain to me.. ^^ thanks

I don't know exactly what they are. However, the most important thing to remember is that ultimately heaven and hell relate to how one is related to God. Those who are in "heaven" are those who are united to God in spirit and who share in the life of God. Hell, on the other hand, is the exact opposite of living in God's presence. It is to be completely separated from God.

 

[son]

Hi all,
it is true that man cannot interpret the bible. Holy Spirit interpretes it. But how can we know the meaning? It is through the mouth of man. But where is the Holy Spirt? It is in our hearts, so when we read the bible and we understand it, it is by Holy Spirit which opens our eye(you are right in saying this) and making us interpret. But ultimately, it is still Holy Spirit whcih makes us understand it. It is not by our own cleverness or anything through manly efforts.

I too believed that those who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved. let's look at Romans 2:12-13

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Yes, we are saved in unconditional love, and we are indeed saved when we believe in Jesus. But when we believe in Jesus, do we still commit sins like before! definitely not! Since we are justified by faith, we should have faith. We have the gospel and gospel says love your neighbor as yourself, love God.. If we still sinned, we will be judged under the law. But there is forgiveness and there is repentance. If you do not repentance, how can God forgives?

Also, in verse 12, the ones who do not know the law are judged apart from the law. the way gentiles are judged is different from the way christians are judged. Because they do not know.

However, romans 2:15,
gentile also has their own laws. it it their conscience. If they go against their conscience, they will be judged.

God treats everyone equally, he wants everyone to come to repentance.

For example, you see a person dying and he is a gentile. Do you wish him to go to hell or to go to heaven?

 

[DeaconDean]

It is true that God is a forgiving God, but for those who reject Jesus Christ there is no forgivness.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." -John 3:36

Sin demands punishment from God. Noah preached for 120 years as he built the Ark. God even left the door open for seven days for the repentant. But no one repented and God brought the flood. If God always forgives, then why did He bring the flood on the ungodly of the world during Noah's time? Also, if God is forgiving, why then did He only save Lot and his family out of Sodom? Jesus also gave a warning to those who do not accept Him:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" -Matt. 25:41

If you look up the word "everlasting" in Strongs Concordance you will find:
The Greek word is :"aijwvnioß" which means:

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

Interesting to note that the same Greek word is also rendered "eternal" 42x in the New Testament. (Strongs Number 166)Eternal, everlasting punishment for sin, but the ultimate sin for which people will be cast into hell for is the rejection of Jesus Christ as the personal Savior.

 

[depthdeception]

It is true that God is a forgiving God, but for those who reject Jesus Christ there is no forgivness.

No, there is forgiveness. For those who reject the love of God, there is no reconciliation. Important distinction.

Sin demands punishment from God.

Why? I didn't think anything could demand something from God...

Noah preached for 120 years as he built the Ark. God even left the door open for seven days for the repentant. But no one repented and God brought the flood. If God always forgives, then why did He bring the flood on the ungodly of the world during Noah's time? Also, if God is forgiving, why then did He only save Lot and his family out of Sodom?

Forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation... You are wrongly conflating the two as being equivalent.

 

[DeaconDean]

depthdeception, forgive me but your stance on hell and eternal punishment is well known. You don't believe in it. Here are the facts friend:

In the Old Testament particularly, punishments for sins were severe. Death was the punishment for striking or reviling a parent, for blasphemy, for Sabbath breaking, for witchcraft, for adultery, for rape, for incest, for kidnapping, for idolatry (Exod. 21:15,17; Lev. 24:14,16,23, Num. 15:32-36). Capital punishment was by stoning (Deut. 22:24). Romans introduced beheading (Matt. 14:10) and crucifixion (Mark 15:21-25). Other forms of punishment were being sawed apart, cutting with iron harrows, stripes, burning, and by the sword. Punishment in kind was a common principle (Exod. 21:23-25). The New Testament suggests a less brutal approach to punishment. This is primarily based on Christ's procuring forgiveness for man by bearing punishment for sin (Acts 2:38; 10:38-43).


Everlasting punishment is taught in Scripture for those who reject God's love that is revealed in Christ (Matt. 25:46; Dan. 12:2). In Matt. 25:46, the word aionion (translated "everlasting" and "eternal") applies to the destiny of both the saved and the lost. The final place of everlasting punishment is called the "lake of fire" (Rev. 19:20; 20:10,14,15). It is also called "the second death" (Rev. 14:9-11; 20:6). "Hell" in Scripture translates Hades, the unseen realm where the souls of all the dead are. Gehenna is the place of punishment of Hades. Paradise is the place of blessing of Hades (Luke 16:19-31). The reason for eternal punishment is the rejection of the love of God in Christ (John 3:18,19).

"Throughout the Bible it is insisted that sin is to be punished. In an ultimate sense God will see that this is done, but temporarily the obligation is laid upon those in authority to see that wrongdoers are punished. The lex talionis of Exod. 21:23-25 is not the expression of a vindictive spirit. Rather it assures an even justice (the rich and the poor are to be treated alike) and a penalty proportionate to the crime.
Two important points emerge from OT usage. The verb used in the sense of "punish" is paqad, which means "visit." For God to come into contact with sin is for him to punish it. Of the nouns used, most are simply the words for sin. Sin necessarily and inevitably involves punishment.
In the NT "punishment" is not as common as "condemnation," which may be significant. To be condemned is sufficient. Punishment is implied. The removal of punishment is brought about by the atoning death of our Lord. It is not said in so many words that Jesus bore punishment, unless bearing our sins (Heb. 9:28; I Pet. 2:24) be held to mean this. But that his sufferings were penal seems clearly to be the NT teaching." L Morris
(Elwell Evangelical Dictionary)

Now whether you believe it or not is not my concern, but if you go on teaching that even after death there is forgivness, you my friend, are responsible, not me. And you twist scripture friend. John 3:36 says "and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." What happens when you believe not on the Son? You reject Him. Plain and simple.

 

[depthdeception]

depthdeception, forgive me but your stance on hell and eternal punishment is well known. You don't believe in it.

You are misrepresenting my position. While I do not believe in eternal "punishment" (why does God need to or want to punish anyone?), I do believe in hell very strongly. I believe without a doubt that there will be many who refuse the free and unmerited forgivenss of GOd in Christ and will never be reconciled to God.

Now whether you believe it or not is not my concern,

How kind of you...

but if you go on teaching that even after death there is forgivness, you my friend, are responsible, not me.

Good. I'm glad to know that my eternal destiny is based upon the grace and forgiveness of God, and not your mood. Moreover, God's forgivenss is real towards all persons at all times. The difference in eternal destiny lies in whether or not people will be reconciled to God. Forgiveness is the necessary condition for reconciliation. It is not itself reconciliation

And you twist scripture friend. John 3:36 says "and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." What happens when you believe not on the Son? You reject Him. Plain and simple.

First of all, the definition of "wrath" is open to interpretation. Secondly, the only thing I reject is your philosophy and interpretation of the Scriptures. Hardly something damnable, I'm afraid.

 

[son]

Yo, there is one point i wish to point out... Noah opened the door for seven days right, waiting for people to go in.. but yet, there is none. And this statement already shows fully forgiveness and redemption.. it is only that the people do not repent. God open the door just before the flood comes, and it is not that no one knows about this thing. but they do not believe. putting this scene to our life, God tries to save gentile just before judgment comes.

However, when you say that non-christians will not be forgiven, I do not think that I correct fully. a non-christian who has a kind heart will not be send to hell, becasue God has compassion. however, the fact is that they do not know God, so they will not be fully saved.

I too, does not fully believe in etnernal punishment( my opinion only). But, I believe in punishment. I believe that one day, when jesus come to this earth and save this world to the perfect world we have, all the poor souls who are in hell will be release. of course, there may be some who still does not repent. I guess that they may just vanish or disappear. Who can bear to watch a person suffering eternally? therefore, I believe that there is always forgiveness. ^^

 

[DeaconDean]

My Bible tells me:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." -Rev. 20:10

Satan, the false prophet, and the beast, all three will be cast into the "lake of fire" to be tormented day and night forever.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -Rev. 21:8

The unbelievers, if you don't believe in Jesus, then you reject Him. And those who do not believe in Him will be cast into the same lake of fire, to be tormented day and night forever.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." -Rev. 20:15

This is the same "lake of fire" spoken of. The same one Satan, the false prophet, and the beast are thrown into. If you name isn't in the Lamb's book of Life, you will be cast into the "lake of fire" to be "tormented day and night forever." -Rev. 20:10

 

[depthdeception]

My Bible tells me:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." -Rev. 20:10

Satan, the false prophet, and the beast, all three will be cast into the "lake of fire" to be tormented day and night forever.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -Rev. 21:8

The unbelievers, if you don't believe in Jesus, then you reject Him. And those who do not believe in Him will be cast into the same lake of fire, to be tormented day and night forever.

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." -Rev. 20:15

This is the same "lake of fire" spoken of. The same one Satan, the false prophet, and the beast are thrown into. If you name isn't in the Lamb's book of Life, you will be cast into the "lake of fire" to be "tormented day and night forever." -Rev. 20:10

I do not deny that separation from God will be tormenting. But it will be one's own rejection of God that is the source of the torment, not God.

 

[son]

Hmm....so it means that there is etnernal punishment?
Don't really able to grasp the meaning, because etneral punishment is not just a punishment, it is a punishment without any forgiveness.

However, in the book of revelations, it says about unbelievers. unbelievers means that those who know about Jesus yet does not believe in him are called unbelievers. I may be wrong but it does not says about non-believers, people who does not know about him being thrown into the fire.

Also, what is the meaning of 'Lake of fire' where they will be tormented day and night. Bible in this case, since it cannot be interprete literally, must have the hidden meaning inside.

There is one point i wish to point it out. What is the book of life? To whom it is given to? Sometimes, when I encounter this verse, it is always associated with people who are christians. However, I do not believe that this is true to the full extent, and i wonder this alot. There are alot of christians who sinned much more (even after repenting) than non-christians and does that mean they still can go to heaven? really puzzles me alot sometimes... ^^