"Eternal life" at what cost?

[Teh Wiccan]

I have a friend... This person decided to become "born-again" at one point, and was happy with the reults.... At least until his Girlfriend left him. He really loved her... Beyond any way he could hope to show it. He then fell away.

Is it moral to really become born again if you lose everything else important to you in your life?

 

[Hidden in Christ]

I have a friend... This person decided to become "born-again" at one point, and was happy with the reults.... At least until his Girlfriend left him. He really loved her... Beyond any way he could hope to show it. He then fell away.

Is it moral to really become born again if you lose everything else important to you in your life?

Hi...there is so very much that could be said about this topic...and I do not currently have time to say all that I would like, but here are some things to think about.

When deciding whether to become "born again" one must count the cost. I believe the Bible teaches that a person is deceiving himself if he thinks that following Christ will not involve hardship and sacrifice. Jesus said that if we aren't willing to give something up for him and take up our cross and follow Him, we are not worthy of Him. I don't have the Scripture handy, but one verse says that if we hate not father, mother, etc. then we cannot be Christ's disciple. This does not mean we won't have any earthly affection, it just means we have to love Christ more than anyone or anything else.

We have to determine our priorities. What will it profit us if we gain the whole world and lose our soul?

Moreover, I think a lot of people are deceived into believing that becoming a Christian is ALL about giving up things that we love and living a miserable life. But I can say from experience that THE CHRISTIAN LIFE IS NOT A MISERABLE ONE!!! By receiving Jesus, we have much to gain--joy and comfort that resides deep within and comes from God, and therefore does not go away when circumstances are tough, and a wonderful eternal life of peace with God, to name a few.

I am sorry to hear about your friend's negative experience. When I had only been a Christian for a few months, I had a very good friend who began to withdraw from my company. It was clear that the difference God had made in my life made this friend uncomfortable. This discouraged me, and I got away from God for a while, in an effort to fit in with my old friends. But then I realized I could not be happy in compromising for their sakes.

 

[He put me back together]

Hey, Wiccan. It's nice to see you here. I'm kindof wondering on the cause of this guy's girlfriend leaving him--if it's not too private. Was it merely because he became a Christian, or was it a particular creed that he held, or a change in behavior? Or was it simply an event in his life that caused him to lose faith?

In addition I would like to ask this of you if you're cool with it--is it moral to believe what you believe, if it costs you everything?

Blessings and all that good stuff

 

[Teh Wiccan]

It caused a change in his behaviour... however subtle it was.

I suppose it depends on what you believe in. I would really need an example and circumsstances.

 

[the Colonel]

HiddeninChrist,

I could not have said it better. That is exactly what living for Christ is about. However, what you gain is beyond all expectations. Beyond the euphamism (as seen by non-Christians) of eternal life eventually, the benefits here on earth far outweigh the "sacrifices" one makes in giving his/her life over to Christ.

I cannot imagine my life without Him. It is an everyday joy and pleasure. It's a comfort and peace I cannot imagine otherwise.

Wiccan, your friend should take heart. He will gain countless friends in the body of Christ, including lady friends. In the end, it will work out for the better. Being "yolked" to a believer (I've been married to a wonderful Christian woman for 9 years now) is an indescribable experience. My relationship with my wife, because of our committment to Christ, is second to none. It is only exceeded by our love for Christ.

Regards,

the Colonel

 

[He put me back together]

It caused a change in his behaviour... however subtle it was.

I suppose it depends on what you believe in. I would really need an example and circumsstances.

Well, actually I meant to ask you personally whether or not your beliefs are worth everything to you. If they are not, which is something I can definately understand, one thing you must understand about those who know Christ is that Christ gave everything to us. We would die for Christ. Not because we are arrogant of our creeds to the point of death, but because he saved us from true death--he died the true death for us, to save us from true death. To find him, we must part with everything we hold dear. Yes, I would and have risked losing any or all loved ones for this man. It's not about sacrificing all for what you believe in--it's about sacrificing all for the one who saved you from death by sacrificing more. If your lover has a problem with the one who brought you back from the dead, is your lover worth returning to death?

 

[Northern Christian]

"What has a man to gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

 

[HadouKen24]

If in your search for the truth, you find that a certain conclusion is inevitable, you must believe it. Intellectual dishonesty with yourself for the sake of material or other gain -- which will not last, anyway -- is simply not worth it.

This holds true in all cases. You may not actually have the truth, but how can you know? No man can do more than his level best. All you can do is admit your mistakes when you find them and move on, putting your new conclusions into practice.

That's my opinion, anyway.

 

[Havoc]

If in your search for the truth, you find that a certain conclusion is inevitable, you must believe it. Intellectual dishonesty with yourself for the sake of material or other gain -- which will not last, anyway -- is simply not worth it.

This holds true in all cases. You may not actually have the truth, but how can you know? No man can do more than his level best. All you can do is admit your mistakes when you find them and move on, putting your new conclusions into practice.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Well said.

 

[Jamin Chef]

Truth is unchanging. Truth is something that time will never touch, something that is absolutely absolute. If there is more than one truth out there, then there is no truth because truth can only exist as One. There is either Truth, or no truth.

Believing in the Truth will separate you from those that don't. It creates a lifestyle that will clash. The Truth is worth it; why live a lie?

 

[tcampen]

Truth is unchanging. Truth is something that time will never touch, something that is absolutely absolute. If there is more than one truth out there, then there is no truth because truth can only exist as One. There is either Truth, or no truth.

Believing in the Truth will separate you from those that don't. It creates a lifestyle that will clash. The Truth is worth it; why live a lie?

If this one truth really exists as you say, then what is it? Is it a truth like 2+2=4? Where all reasonably minded people, regardless of their religious affiliation, can agree on? Or is it one of those truths that changes depending on your spiritual faith?

Just curious. thanks.

 

[He put me back together]

Well, it's an axiom that there is only one truth. This is just simply the case--there can only be one truth. (Not to be confused with the term "truthes," which refers to multiple pieces of the truth) This doesn't mean that any of us know what the truth is--it's just an inarguable fact that "A and not A" NEVER exists. If two men do not believe exactly the same thing, at least one of them is wrong about something. That much is true--the one who is right, IF either one of them is right about anything, is the mystery. This "there is no wrong answer" creed is nothing but illogical garbage. A better way to see things is this: "There is only one whole truth, but since we don't know all of it, I should be open minded and listen to what other people have to say on the matter, whether I agree with them or not."

Blessings

 

[Ben johnson]

"What has a man to gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

Ha! Just the verse I was thinkin' of, Northern Christian! Mark8:36

TEH, the question of "BORN AGAIN" exists outside of ourselves. Wrapped in that one thing are several threads: "Is there a God?" "Is the Bible the inspired word of that God?" "Is the Bible an accurate recount of Jesus' words?" "Is Jesus Who He said He was?"

Truth exists outside of us; either Jesus was, as He Himself said, "the only way to God", or He was not. If not --- then either a liar, or a lunatic; there's really no other choice.

What did he give up to receive God? Perhaps he DID truly love his girlfriend --- but it was incomplete love; true fulfilling love is only that which is RETURNED. And this is the essence of Christianity --- we claim that GOD has such a love for us; a full, complete, unconditional love; that returns to us a hundred fold when we love God!

Picture Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemene; sweating literal blood, so intense were His emotions; fully knowing that there would be a CROSS on the 'morrow. A cross, nails, the worst physical death in the world. "Take this cup from Me; nevertheless, not My will, but Yours." He absolutely could have rejected the Cross, He could have called a legion of angels FROM the Cross to rescue Him --- they certainly were stomping in frustration at being restrained from helping Him...

And yet He did not; hanging there, torn on his brow, torn on his back, torn on his wrists and feet --- bleeding from seemingly every place, darkness covering His Spirit --- the darkness of OUR CRIMES; as our evil evaporated from us and condensed on HIM; darkness that the Father could not abide!

"FATHER! Why hast Thou FORSAKEN ME?!?!"

We cannot imagine the fire of pain that assaulted Him from his wounds; from the whip tied with bits of metal and bone, SHREDDING his back; from the thorns that pierced right down to His skull; and from the nails POUNDED RIGHT THROUGH HIS LIMBS!

Never has the Universe known such love; for you, for me.

If ANY of you was the LAST person in the UNIVERSE, and He had to die to save ONLY YOU, there would He hang --- just for you.

"TETELESTAI!"

That was His last word; not "IT IS FINISHED", but "TETELESTAI"; your debt is paid; your sins caused the debt of death, I PAID INSTEAD OF YOU!

How can I willfully sin, KNOWING that He was hanging there, FOR ME? How can I refuse such love? I cannot understand that kind of love; I can only cherish it...

...and love Him back, as best I can...

If this one truth really exists as you say, then what is it? Is it a truth like 2+2=4? Where all reasonably minded people, regardless of their religious affiliation, can agree on? Or is it one of those truths that changes depending on your spiritual faith?

Havoc, in the first paragraph of this post, I asserted a progression of truths --- "the essence of the Universe". Let's say God is REAL, ONE God. Let's say Jesus is as He said, PART of that One God. A real person, sentient --- laughing, crying, reasoning, thinking Being.

GOD --- infinite omniscient omnipotent omnipresent CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE; author of Love, embodiment of love.

Can "lost and fallible man" ever FIND such a God?

Here is a promise bold and clear; a promise based on the reality of that God:
"For I know the plans I have for you, plans for prosperity and not for calamity, to give you a future and a hope; then you will SEEK Me and you will FIND Me, when you search with all your heart. I WILL BE FOUND BY YOU!!!" Jeremiah 19:11-14

There is the promise. Real, sentient God; if you SEEK Him, you will FIND Him; and He will receive you.

That's it --- if you doubt, then ASK Him; if you MEAN it, you will find Him. This is the reality of the Universe...

 

[Ben johnson]

oops --- Jeremiah 29:11-14...
:o

 

[Jamin Chef]

If this one truth really exists as you say, then what is it? Is it a truth like 2+2=4? Where all reasonably minded people, regardless of their religious affiliation, can agree on? Or is it one of those truths that changes depending on your spiritual faith?

Just curious. thanks.

Some would believe that truth is relevant to the believer...that what is true to me, may not be true to you. I said before that truth is singular, absolute, and unchanging. Our opinions don't change the truth. You have the free will, as do I, to put our belief in what we choose...but that doesn't make it the truth. The truth is not dependent on me believing in it, it was already there, all I did was find it. Here's the biblical defintion of truth (the truth I am talking about) from dictionary.com:

"Truth: Used in various senses in Scripture. In Prov. 12:17, 19, it denotes that which is opposed to falsehood. In Isa. 59:14, 15, Jer. 7:28, it means fidelity or truthfulness. The doctrine of Christ is called "the truth of the gospel" (Gal. 2:5), "the truth" (2 Tim. 3:7; 4:4). Our Lord says of himself, "I am the way, and the truth" (John 14:6)."

The truth is Jesus. Reason cannot explain God. If I could explain God, I wouldn't believe in Him. And to your answer, no...if the truth is Jesus, then there is no way reasonably minded people regardless of religious affiliation could all come and agree on it. Isn't that obvious? God can't be reasoned or explained, but He can be understood, just seek the Truth.



He Put Me Back Together said:
"Well, it's an axiom that there is only one truth. This is just simply the case--there can only be one truth. (Not to be confused with the term "truthes," which refers to multiple pieces of the truth) This doesn't mean that any of us know what the truth is--it's just an inarguable fact that "A and not A" NEVER exists. If two men do not believe exactly the same thing, at least one of them is wrong about something. That much is true--the one who is right, IF either one of them is right about anything, is the mystery. This "there is no wrong answer" creed is nothing but illogical garbage. A better way to see things is this: 'There is only one whole truth, but since we don't know all of it, I should be open minded and listen to what other people have to say on the matter, whether I agree with them or not.'"

This was very well said.

 

[Seraphim Reeves]

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. (St.Matthew's Gospel, 10:32-39)

Christ our God did not promise peace as the world gives it, but a peace of conscience which is beyond all understanding, and for those who persevere, life ever lasting. If we believe Christ to be Who He says He is, and the urgency of His teaching and the crisis of man's situation, then obviously nothing else can have priority over Him.

I'd only say that what is often called the "born again experience", and the theology which accompanies it, is extremely incomplete, and outright incorrect. There is no "instant" fix to our dillema, as your friend's eventual falling away indicates.

Seraphim

 

[revolutio]

I have a friend... This person decided to become "born-again" at one point, and was happy with the reults.... At least until his Girlfriend left him. He really loved her... Beyond any way he could hope to show it. He then fell away.

Is it moral to really become born again if you lose everything else important to you in your life?

If you truely believe in an immortal soul then the worst of plight in this life is less than a pin prick in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Carico]

First of all, no one can decide to be born again. That is up to God. The apostle Paul didn't wake up one day and decide to be born again. God showed Him the truth through the holy spirit. That can never be changed. That is why the only unforgiveable sin is the rejection of the holy Spirit because it's almsot impossible to do so. If your friend was truly born again, that can't be taken back. However, he might be mad at God because God didn't answer his prayers the way he wanted Him to. If he's truly born again, God will bring him closer to Him.

 

[Ben johnson]

First of all, no one can decide to be born again. That is up to God. The apostle Paul didn't wake up one day and decide to be born again. God showed Him the truth through the Holy Spirit. That can never be changed.

Calvinism? Maybe, HyperCalvinism? Paul was a special case --- and even then, Paul wasn't really FORCED. But the large majority of us have no "Damascus Road experience".

I would invite you to participate on one of the "OSAS" threads; I can show you how "ATONEMENT" is offered to EVERY man (woman and child), unlimited, and how salvation is FELLOWSHIP --- identically, abiding in Christ; such salvation cannot be "lost", but can be forfeited (meaning a truly saved person CAN become unsaved)...

If you're game.

 

[tcampen]

Some would believe that truth is relevant to the believer...that what is true to me, may not be true to you. I said before that truth is singular, absolute, and unchanging. Our opinions don't change the truth. You have the free will, as do I, to put our belief in what we choose...but that doesn't make it the truth. The truth is not dependent on me believing in it, it was already there, all I did was find it. Here's the biblical defintion of truth (the truth I am talking about) from dictionary.com:

"Truth: Used in various senses in Scripture. In Prov. 12:17, 19, it denotes that which is opposed to falsehood. In Isa. 59:14, 15, Jer. 7:28, it means fidelity or truthfulness. The doctrine of Christ is called "the truth of the gospel" (Gal. 2:5), "the truth" (2 Tim. 3:7; 4:4). Our Lord says of himself, "I am the way, and the truth" (John 14:6)."

The truth is Jesus. Reason cannot explain God. If I could explain God, I wouldn't believe in Him. And to your answer, no...if the truth is Jesus, then there is no way reasonably minded people regardless of religious affiliation could all come and agree on it. Isn't that obvious? God can't be reasoned or explained, but He can be understood, just seek the Truth.A better way to see things is this: 'There is only one whole truth, but since we don't know all of it, I should be open minded and listen to what other people have to say on the matter, whether I agree with them or not.'"

This was very well said.

Ok then, how would you determine the truth of the following question:

Apple pie is better than cherry pie.


If there is only one truth, then either apple pie it better than cherry pie, or cherry pie is better than apple pie. And since absolute truth is unchanging and eternal, which ever pie is better always has been and always will be. And remember, there is no "what's true for me may not be what's true for you" concept allowed here. That simply will not do. One must necessarily be better than the other.

So which is it? (and why?)