Eternal Hell and Torment is a big fat Lie.

I Cor 15:22,28For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order... [Ed., This phrase is the real key to understanding God's purposes in relation to His time schedule.] "And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all."
I Cor 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
II Cor 5:14,15 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

II Cor 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was [Ed., and is] in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Eph 1:9,10 He make known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth.

Eph 1:22,23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all.

Eph 3:8-11 To me [Paul]...this grace was given...to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 4:5,6 There is...one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.

Phil 2:9-11 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phil 3;21 ...who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Col 1:19-22 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

Jon0388g said:

If so, then Scripture surely contradicts itself: “..This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:14-15. From these texts I gather that some names will not be in the book of life, and they will partake of the second death. Any other interpretations of this?

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In no way does this mean Scripture contradicts itself -- actually, if your interpretation was correct it would contradict itself because it says in many places that all are saved.

But there are plenty of other interpretations. This verse in no way means that some people will die and burn in hell for eternity.

Here are a few articles on that subject:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html#The Second Death


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]THE SECOND DEATH[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The book of Revelation is a book of symbols. In the introduction to this marvelous book the beloved John explains, "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John" (Rev. 1:1). The word "signified" is from the Greek SEMAINO meaning to indicate or communicate by means of signs and symbols. The meanings of all the symbols of the Revelation are given, either in the book itself, or elsewhere in the Scriptures. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The first things John beheld when in Spirit was One like unto the Son of man, standing in the midst of seven golden candlesticks, holding seven stars in His right hand. The One like unto the Son of man is identified as the resurrected and glorified Lord, for this One says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: I am He that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore" (Rev. 1:10, 17-18). The other symbols of that first vision are interpreted as follows: "The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels (messengers) of the seven Churches: and the seven candlesticks which you saw are the seven Churches" (Rev. 1:20).[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Children in school learn what we call definitions. A definition is an explanatory statement which tells us exactly what a certain thing is, as "an island is a tract of land completely surrounded by water." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]God also gives us definitions in His Word. He tells us exactly what certain things are. And in the Scripture just quoted He has told us exactly what the seven stars and the seven candlesticks are. Those are God's definitions. And in Rev. 20:14 God tells us exactly what the SECOND DEATH is. "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH." Now let me make this a little plainer. Definitions of men can be given backward. For instance, the definition, "An island is a tract of land completely surrounded by water," can be given thus: "A tract of land completely surrounded by water is an island." This is but another way of stating the same fact. It does not, in any way, change the meaning. Now let us try this on the definition of the second death. The Bible states it thus: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS the second death." Now let us turn this around for clarity. "The second death IS death and hell cast into the lake of fire." Therefore we have exactly the same meaning either way it is stated. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What is the second death? It is the first death and hell cast into the lake of fire! This fact is very IMPORTANT. The second death is not merely the lake of fire. The second death is not men being tortured for ever in the lake of fire. The Holy Spirit has made it very simple and plain. The second death is the first death and hell CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. That is the Holy Spirit's definition, not mine.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire. That is the end of death and hell and sin, for God shall destroy death in the lake of fire, He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin and rebellion in the lake of fire. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! when God's Kingdom shall be All in All, and there shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell. It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death? How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape? Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire - it is SIN and DEATH and HELL that are destroyed. "And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH![/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The following words by Ray Prinzing give fresh insight into this wonderful truth: "The offence of the first Adam brought all men under the sentence of death for sin. Hence presently our mortal bodies are in a state of dying, while our minds need to be freed from minding the things of the flesh, to mind the things of the Spirit. The act of disobedience of Adam brought forth death. Now, the obedience and work of righteousness of the last Adam also brings forth a death for every man. The question arises, Is the SECOND DEATH the same kind of death as the first? Many people think that it is a repetition of the first, and that the results are the same, while its action is more severe and cruel, and destructive, being by fire. And some Christians add very sorrowfully, 'and from this second death there is no resurrection, it is an endless torment in agony,' BUT NOT SO! For God's seconds are never duplicates of the first, they are always better, higher, and more powerful than the firsts, and used to counter-balance all the action of the firsts, and MUCH MORE - He always saves the best until last.[/FONT]

continued, see link.

More articles.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#29

There are more books and articles on this I could post, but this is enough to get you started.

Charlie

jon said:

Like the example with Sodom and Gomorrah also (Jude 7), Edom is not burning today. The 'forever' was used to indicate it would not end until there was nothing left to burn up. The Old Testament has many instances where it uses the term 'forever' but not necassarily with the same connotations we apply to it today: a slave could serve his master "forever" (Ex. 21:6), that the child Samuel was to abide in the tabernacle "forever" (1 Sam. 1:22), and that Jonah thought he would be in the belly of the great fish "forever" (Jonah 2:6).

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This will one day be the destiny of all who have rejected Yahweh (66.24). But here the reference is distinctively to Edom. It will be deserted by men because of its condition (compare 13.20. See Malachi 1.4), but that we are not to take the description too literally comes out in that plentiful wildlife would survive there (verses 13-15), which would have been impossible on a literal application of the words. The thought is rather of God’s extreme judgment having come on them in terms of the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19.24) and Deuteronomy 29.23, a fate that will continue for ever. And indeed Edom did cease to be a nation, and its land became totally barren. Thus the message of its evil goes up for ever and ever. God’s brimstone of judgment has enveloped it.
Its fate is described in language typical of what God had promised to those who disobey Him and reject His covenant (Deuteronomy 29.23). It is saying that the covenant curse has come on them. Brimstone especially is a symbol of judgment (30.33). The description is not therefore intended to be taken as literally describing what will literally be seen on earth, but to describe how the action is seen from heaven’s viewpoint, and to symbolise the fact that God has dealt with it in judgment for ever. It is heaven that sees the burning sulphur and the eternal smoke arising, not men on earth. They just see the barrenness and the desert waste. Note the great emphasis on its everlastingness. As in 30.30, which spoke of vivid heavenly activity not seen on earth although the consequences were seen, what is described is ‘invisible’. It is how heaven sees it. It is a poetic description. Its land fell into Arab hands in 5th century BC, and was overrun by the Nabataeans in the 3rd century BC. Those Edomites who fled to Judah were finally compelled to become Jews under John Hyrcanus in 1st century BC. Edom as a nation disappeared.

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http://uk.geocities.com/jonpartin/isaiah5.html

This guy's explanation seems reasonable. as to Jonah use of forever, he was merely being hyperbolic. the question for us then is is forever and ever in rev. 20 is it symbolic or not. I see Edom's punishment symbolic of eternal torment in the lake of fire. I see the lake of fire where satan is tormented day and night forever and ever as literal for several reasons. the parable of the rich man and lazarus. the demons that are released from the abysys in rev. Demons are being tormented there right now and will be released one day durring the tribulation to torment men like they have never been tormented here on earth. I think it behoves us to take rev. 20.15 literally and not assume that it is figurative and that sinners will be burnt up.

Revelation 9:1-5 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven fallen unto the earth: and there was given to him the key of the pit of the abyss. And he opened the pit of the abyss; and there went up a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And out of the smoke came forth locusts upon the earth; and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was said unto them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only such men as have not the seal of God on their foreheads. And it was given them that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when it striketh a man.


I see vs. 1-5 as a forerunner to what awaits man who rejects christ in the lake of fire. in verses 1-5 they are tormented day and night to the intensity of being stung by scorpions repeatedly for 5 months. saying that sinners are burnt up in the lake of fire doesn't match the intensity of the torment they recieve here on earth for 5 months.

If I was to bet I would bet that the torment is literally forever and ever in a lake of fire. there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, which signifys prolonged torment. people being burnt up don't weep and gnash their teeth. it's over quick for them.

Jon0388g said:

This is the tragedy of those who have chosen their paths my friend. I totally agree with you here, and in my own opinion I do believe that at this time when every knee shall bow, there will be some who truly regret the decision they have made, but they have made it nonetheless.

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We all regret decisions we make. Regretting decisions doesn't mean, spending eternity on fire.

You recognize that the day will come when "every knee will bow, every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord." This is good. Some try to deny this day will come, although the Bible tells us this.

This fact, plus the fact of two other passages = undeniable universal salvation.

First, recognize that the confession is not made unbelieving or by force.

1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

The confession that Jesus is Lord is through the Holy Ghost. It's not a forced confession, nor is it a lying confession. The person confessing, believes it. They're not on their knees saying, "This is all an hallucination." They are speaking from the Holy Spirit.

Second, that confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

There you have it.

1. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.
2. The confession will be through the Holy Spirit, not a lying confession or a forced confession.
3. The confession is made unto salvation.

Charlie

Jon0388g said:

Perhaps one of those of the universalist view would care to start this as a thread in General Theology? Jon

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Sadly, CF Forum rules do not allow discussion of universalism except in a few forums. I believe General Theology is not one of them.

Charlie

Jon0388g said:

Sorry Kimberly I posted that before seeing your previous posts. But I still think that your two verses definately do not mean that everyone will be saved.

I think there is a serious mixup when the Bible says 'Saviour of all men' - Jesus is the Saviour of all men - not all men accept Jesus as their Saviour. "..whosoever believes" will inherit eternal life. If Jesus' death means that everyone is saved - there is still no choice in the matter, and mankind is saved whether we want to be or not. He is the Saviour of all men in this sense, but He is also the Saviour in that none of us would be able to get to the kingdom unless He died for our sins; ".. 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." John 14:6

1 John 2:2 simply is emphasising that yes He died for the sins of the world - but this underlines my point that through this every man has the "free gift of grace" to be saved, for without it we are all condemned. Of course Hitler's sins are covered by the blood of Christ, it is just unfortunate that Hitler chose not to accept the free gift of Salvation through Christ.

1 John also goes on to say "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also..... This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." 1 John 2:23, 25

Just a few questions: If we are all going to be saved, why does Jesus not return right now and end all the suffering and pain, if we are all to confess His name and some point anyway? If we are all saved, what was the point of the whole of human history of pain and suffering and sin in the first place? What of the numerous verses throughout Scripture that point to the Judgement and the eternal life of the righteous and the eternal death of the wicked? Doesn't it seem unfair to those martyr's that lived tortured persecuted lives and died horrible deaths for Christ that we will all be saved anyways, when the secular and care-free among us can live relatively trouble-free lives and not have to worry about living righteously for God, because we will all be saved?

Jon

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[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Timothy 4[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:11 Command and teach these things. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 John 2[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. [/FONT]

[/FONT]

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Jon said:

Sorry Kimberly I posted that before seeing your previous posts. But I still think that your two verses definately do not mean that everyone will be saved.

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What do you think they mean?

Jon said:

I think there is a serious mixup when the Bible says 'Saviour of all men' - Jesus is the Saviour of all men - not all men accept Jesus as their Saviour. "..whosoever believes" will inherit eternal life. If Jesus' death means that everyone is saved - there is still no choice in the matter, and mankind is saved whether we want to be or not. He is the Saviour of all men in this sense, but He is also the Saviour in that none of us would be able to get to the kingdom unless He died for our sins; ".. 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." John 14:6

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I agree, Jesus is the only way. And no none would be saved if He didn't die for our sins.
I know many Christians think that sinners choose hell. But that's not true.
The problem is they don't believe because Satan has blinded them.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2 Corinthians 4 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. [/FONT]

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What do you think would happen if their blindness was taken away?

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Matthew 13 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]13:15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' [/FONT]

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Is it Gods will that all men be saved?

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Timothy 2 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. [/FONT]

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Now is God able to accomplish His own Will?

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Isaiah 55 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]55:10 As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. [/FONT]

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