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Lisa0315 said:EchoPneuma said:So, one without faith cannot please God. Will faith be possible AFTER death? Of course not. When we come face to face with almighty God, the truth will be known, and there will be nothing to take on faith. For whatever purpose, God uses faith to test mankind. Without faith, we cannot obtain salvation. It is a two-side transaction. Jesus paid the penalty. We accept by faith.
The Motivating force of the universe is Faith. There are eternal laws which not only the universe abide by, but God as well, for if God does not, is he still God. Can God disobey? One of these eternal laws, is faith. God does not do things without reasons, and so our developing faith in this life has a reason.
God causes the rain to fall on the good and the wicked. Blessings are bestowed on those who believe, and those who do not. Trials and tribulations come to both as well, but the difference is a Christian's trials are actually lessons to teach the Christian to depend on God.
But it matters what a person does with knowledge experiences and blessings and trails that really matters.
How long is an age by the way?
Depends on what you are measuring
Yes, He did, but that does not mean that His sacrifice is accepted by all.
Does not say that they have to accept the gift of the resurrection. Because they were born on earth, Christ gave them the gift of the resurrection. Those that have done good unto the resurrection of life, and those that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation. Or their progression ends for an eternity.
We were all born with original sin but we are not condemned for original sin nor are we condemned for the sins we commit throughout our entire lives. We are condemned for one thing and one thing only: rejection of Christ.
Original sin is not biblical. Now we may be speaking of the same thing, just calling it different things. Adam did not sin, but transgressed the law. The consequences were the same as if he sin. So we could call it the original disobedience.
Yes, Jesus did all that was required, but there still has to be an acceptance of that gift. If you were to walk into a bank and find that some unknown person had gifted you with a billion dollars, the transaction would not be complete until you signed an acceptance of the gift. This is a good analogy of salvation. Jesus paid for the entire world's sin, but it is not imputed to us unless we accept the gift of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Actually a person could deposit a billion dollars in your account and you would not have to sign a thing. Salvation from physical death comes to all, but salvation from spiritual death only comes upon the acceptance of the atonement. And to gain access to the saving power, we must follow Christ.
That is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that faith is required. Read Hebrews chapter 11.
Speaking of Banks, the atonement is like a bank. But in order to withdraw from it, one must go through the process of repentance. But all transgressions were paid for whether or not they accept it.
In accounting, a reconciliation is a method of determining what belongs in an account, and what does not. Reconciliation does not always mean a positive reuniting to God, but it means an accounting of all the transactions of all men, both good and bad. At the judgement of both Christian and non-Christian, there will be an accounting of the works of men. None of the works will be accepted as payment for the penalty of sin. Christ will separate those who belong to Him and those who do not. This is illustrated by the parable of the wheat and the tares.
That does not account for the billions upon billions that are non Christian not because of choice, but were born because that is where God put them. Yet they did good things, but will not accepted by God? Am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
The Gospel was preached once to the dead prior the Christ's resurrection. It was preached to the OT saints, not those already in hell. It was preached to Lazurus and Abraham, but not to the rich man. Why would Jesus talk of the rich man wanting to warn his brothers if there was going to be a second chance for him and his brothers?
The preaching to the Dead continues now and will continue until the judgement.
It is appointed unto man once to die. After that is the judgement. That is paraphrased and I will have to find the chapter and verse for you. That clearly states that man does not get saved after death.
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sin, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the Flesh but quickened by the spirit, by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison which sometime were disobedient when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was a preparing wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." 1 Peter 3:18-20
Yes, in a way, man's FREE will can override the will of God. That is the whole point from Genesis to Revelations. God created us with free will. He desires that we come back to Him, but He will not force anyone. To say that God puts people in a lake of fire until they are ready to accept Him is to say that God is coercing people. It is far more logical to say that God sends people to hell for eternity because of free will. The judgement is simply to prove that the person deserves it. We all deserve it. Jesus steps up, cloaks us with righteousness, and what He deserves becomes ours.
His point is that if God had not created evil and wickedness, there would be no need for the lake of fire and brimstone.
Are you talking about the Lost Sheep of Israel verses here? If so, you are taking that way out of context.
Who says that God's love is unconditional? Show me scripture that says it is unconditional? It says that it endures forever, and it does, but to whom it is directed at is another story.
We are suppose to love our enemies and if they sue us give them our cloak also. We are commanded to love everone, even our enemies, yet God is not under the same law?
GeorgeE said:I have not believed in hell sense I was a small child growing up in Michigan; I remember thinking deep down in my spirit; why would God annihilate billions upon billions of people because they were not saved. I was a good Methodist and I believed the preachers and what the Word of God said; so I got saved baptized in the Spirit and believed the Bible literally.
In my early twenties I got wrapped up in a religion that believed that if you didnt believe the way they did you were going to hell. After a good solid year I did something different; I heard Father and not mother. You see in the Bible anything having to do with God is always masculine; the church is always feminine.
I want to debate this issue with who ever shall come. Please
I am unorthodox; liberal I am not. I am looking for a debate with brothers in the Lord who are seeking truth and have some good Bible foundations. It is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing; it is matter of rightly dividing Gods Word. I promise you I will use the Bible; I will use Greek and Hebrew; I do not agree with all the so called translators out there with certain words; but I will show proof in the Bible why.
If I am wrong show me; it will not be easy; it will be interesting.
GeorgeE said:Lisa0315 said:I really do not believe the word eternal is what the scriptures is saying; the word aion (Greek); or Olan (Hebrew) which most Bible scholars interpret eternal; everlasting etc means age. Age has a limited duration. According to scripture John was in the whale forever, but he was there only three days.
Did you know God is going to burn up a kid (baby goat) in an everlasting fire. There is an awesome and deep message here but just like the Catholic Church non Catholic translators had made a lot of mistakes or interpeted by their bias. That is why God has given us the spirit of truth to lead and guide is in all truth. Right now you know what God is saying in His Word; you some how just got to cut though all that religion and hear what God spirit is saying though His Word.
So, you do not believe in eternal salvation either?
The goats are symbolic of the enemies of God if you are speaking of the scripture that I am thinking of.
It seems to me that you have not studied the Bible as well as you think you have. There are some serious gaps in your arguments, the burning of the goat is a good example. I think you have created a god in your own image, one that fits your idea of who you think he should be, and how he should react to sin.
In the Old Testament, we are given a very clear picture of how God deals with sin. Go to any Bible Study website. I use Crosswalk. Search for "Day of the Lord" and you will see how great the wrath of God is towards sin. Here is but one example:
Jeremiah 6:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
fatboys said:Lisa0315 said:The Motivating force of the universe is Faith. There are eternal laws which not only the universe abide by, but God as well, for if God does not, is he still God. Can God disobey? One of these eternal laws, is faith. God does not do things without reasons, and so our developing faith in this life has a reason.
Yes, that is exactly right. God chose faith as the means of salvation.
But it matters what a person does with knowledge experiences and blessings and trails that really matters.
Yes it does. If it leads a man to faith, then, there is salavation. If it leads a man to mock God, then, there is damnation.
Depends on what you are measuring
The age of eternity. How long is an age?
Does not say that they have to accept the gift of the resurrection. Because they were born on earth, Christ gave them the gift of the resurrection. Those that have done good unto the resurrection of life, and those that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation. Or their progression ends for an eternity
My salvation is not works based. The only "work" that is required is repentance and faith.
Actually a person could deposit a billion dollars in your account and you would not have to sign a thing. Salvation from physical death comes to all, but salvation from spiritual death only comes upon the acceptance of the atonement. And to gain access to the saving power, we must follow Christ.
True, but you could not use those funds unless you signed for it. There is a two-way transaction regardless of how free the gift is.
Speaking of Banks, the atonement is like a bank. But in order to withdraw from it, one must go through the process of repentance. But all transgressions were paid for whether or not they accept it.
Yes, exactly, but where do you find that there will be repentance after death? The Rich man looked up and he was very, very sorry. He still burned.
That does not account for the billions upon billions that are non Christian not because of choice, but were born because that is where God put them. Yet they did good things, but will not accepted by God? Am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
Those who do not hear the gospel or do not have the mental capacity to accept it will be juded according to their works.
The preaching to the Dead continues now and will continue until the judgement.
There is no scripture that supports that. The preaching to the dead was a one time deal for those who were dead at the time that Christ was dead for three days. Plus, it was not to the evil dead, but to those who were in Paradise with Abraham. There is no Paradise now, only Heaven and Hell.
His point is that if God had not created evil and wickedness, there would be no need for the lake of fire and brimstone.
The Bible says that God created all things, true. However, God only indirectly created evil. He did this by creating creatures who were capable of good and evil beginning with the angels. This is free will.
We are suppose to love our enemies and if they sue us give them our cloak also. We are commanded to love everone, even our enemies, yet God is not under the same law?
God is NOT under this same law. It is a sin for us to take life because we did not create it. It is not the same for God. No man is truly OUR enemy, but those who trespass against us are actually the enemy of God. Even Christians who do others wrong trespass against God rather than the person. We are taught to forgive one another because God will not forgive us if we do not forgive each other. It is a life lesson, NOT a cosmic law. The law of love is given to us because if we can keep that one law, we can keep the intent of the rest. Go back to the 10 commandments. See if you can keep any of those laws without having love in your heart towards your fellow man or towards God. It is impossible.
Again, this to me is an example of how you are creating God in your own image. If we have a rule, then, your god must be bound by that same law, or it is "unfair". God is not constrained by the same things we are. For example, we are not supposed to judge one another. Yet, God WILL judge us, every single one of us. If God MUST be under the same rules and laws as we are, how is it possible for God to judge us when it is clearly written that we should not judge?
Lisa
Lisa0315 said:What does it mean to say that those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be in hell?
Lisa
What does it mean to say that those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be in hell?
Lisa0315 said:fatboys said:Lisa0315 said:Yes, that is exactly right. God chose faith as the means of salvation.
What other means of salvation could have God chosen, and if there was another way what could it have been?
Yes it does. If it leads a man to faith, then, there is salavation. If it leads a man to mock God, then, there is damnation.
Salvation was for all mankind regardless of what they has been given to them as a gift for being born into mortality. Because of the power of breaking the bands of Death by Christ, the power of disobedience no longer binds death permenantly on man. Because of disobedience, all who are born, and who did not have any choice in death except to be born, can now all be resurrected through Christ who over came death and like mortality has been passed on through disobedience resurrection has been passed on through obedience.
The age of eternity. How long is an age?
A cycle, or one eteranl round, a long time.
My salvation is not works based. The only "work" that is required is repentance and faith.
At least you acknowledge that repentance and faith is a work. Most do not think so. But that being said then your salvation is depended upon works.
Yes, exactly, but where do you find that there will be repentance after death? The Rich man looked up and he was very, very sorry. He still burned.
If there was no repentance after death, then why would Christ preach to those that are dead?
Those who do not hear the gospel or do not have the mental capacity to accept it will be juded according to their works.
So salvation can come to man without having knowledge of Christ? Is that possible. Doesn't one have to have faith Jesus is the Christ for salvation, and no one is saved without this? If someone can be saved without this, then why is it required of anyone?
There is no scripture that supports that. The preaching to the dead was a one time deal for those who were dead at the time that Christ was dead for three days. Plus, it was not to the evil dead, but to those who were in Paradise with Abraham. There is no Paradise now, only Heaven and Hell.
This is what you are saying, that those who had lived and died which Christ went and preached to was the only time that people who have lived and died without knowledge of Christ could be preached to. What of the billions of people who live and die today without knowledge of Christ now. Good and honorable people, but are condenmed because they were born in a place where they had not choice to be born in? And where does it say there is no more paradise? Why would there be a judgement for all whether they are written in the book of life or not? confused
The Bible says that God created all things, true. However, God only indirectly created evil. He did this by creating creatures who were capable of good and evil beginning with the angels. This is free will.
Before God created, did evil exist? Did God want evil to exist? If God created creatures who had choice, do you believe that God could create creatures that would be able to choose good always? Not being controled by God, but that they freely choose because they were obedient? If God is all knowing, did he know that Adam was going to choose to eat? Did God know that Lucifer, which is also one of his creations was going to choose disobedience? We know of two first creations of God that choose wrong, and went against God's wishes. Without throwing out the freedom to choose, why would God allow evil to exist once it begin? Can not God do anything? If he did not want evil to exist, why does he allow it to exist?
God is NOT under this same law. It is a sin for us to take life because we did not create it. It is not the same for God. No man is truly OUR enemy, but those who trespass against us are actually the enemy of God. Even Christians who do others wrong trespass against God rather than the person. We are taught to forgive one another because God will not forgive us if we do not forgive each other. It is a life lesson, NOT a cosmic law. The law of love is given to us because if we can keep that one law, we can keep the intent of the rest. Go back to the 10 commandments. See if you can keep any of those laws without having love in your heart towards your fellow man or towards God. It is impossible.
Again, this to me is an example of how you are creating God in your own image. If we have a rule, then, your god must be bound by that same law, or it is "unfair". God is not constrained by the same things we are. For example, we are not supposed to judge one another. Yet, God WILL judge us, every single one of us. If God MUST be under the same rules and laws as we are, how is it possible for God to judge us when it is clearly written that we should not judge?
Lisa
When God gave Moses the basic laws of God, this was all the children of Israel were capable of living. These laws were prepartory to bring Israel to live the higher laws that Christ brought. This was all that was required of Israel. Christ taught that instead of eye for an eye, love your enemies, turn the other cheek, Instead of committing adultery, one should not even think about it, or it is the same. Israel was not under the laws of Christ, until he brought them. God has given us laws that we can understand and live by. The laws God abide by, we can not understand. Although I loved your premise, and agree in part, the laws apply to God, but God abides by higher laws, the lower laws still apply.
Ironcially, there is nobody in hell whose name is not in the lambs book of life. In fact, those whose names are not in the Lambs book of Life are never thrown to hell. In fact, hell is destroyed a long time before this judgment...so there is no hell to be found in.
Call it what you wish, but don't call sin and transgression of the law two different things:Original sin is not biblical. Now we may be speaking of the same thing, just calling it different things. Adam did not sin, but transgressed the law. The consequences were the same as if he sin. So we could call it the original disobedience.
Where you got this is a mystery. The word for "fire" in the passage in question is pur, or puros (Strong's 4442). It has no connection to the word Theos.Those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life will be in the lake of fire. Hell is consummated in the lake of fire. Hell is not the lake of fire. In fact, the Lake of Fire is the Lake of Theos. Theion is rooted in Theos!
Rev Wayne said:Call it what you wish, but don't call sin and transgression of the law two different things:
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.--1 John 3:4
Where you got this is a mystery. The word for "fire" in the passage in question is pur, or puros (Strong's 4442). It has no connection to the word Theos.
Rev Wayne said:"The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Now if the lake of fire is a place of "torment day and night, forever and ever," how did you miss the nature of the place those people are going whose names are not found written in the Book of Life?
EchoPneuma said:Hey StudentoftheWord.....are you a preterist by any chance? Don't want to change the subject, just wondering.....
fatboys said:All sin is a transgression. And who ever commits a sin transgresses the law. But no all transgressions are sins.
fatboys said:He was innocent because he lacked knowledge of Good and Evil. Lets look at it from a different point of view. Lets suppose that God's intention was to create Adam and Eve to remain in the Garden. If God wanted them to stay in the Garden, why would he place the forbidden fruit there? If it was God's intent that they remain there, why are they not still there? When Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, was God surprised? If he was, then does God know all things?
I believe that God's intent was for Adam to eat the fruit. That is why it was there, and why Adam ate. God knew what he was going to do. If this was so against God's intention, why would he destory Sodom because of its wickedness, and not destroy Adam and start over again.
And there is no such place as hell. There is places of torment, but that torment comes from ourselves as we look at where we are, and where we could have been.
Harlin said:Hello,
What trangressions are you talking about that are not sins?
just interested,
God bless,
Harlin
Harlin said:Hello fatboys,
I believe that God placed that tree there to test Adam and Eve's obedience to Him, to test their love and faith in His goodness. They did too, know what the consequences were for eating of the fruit, God had told them, even though they might not have fully understood those consequences they knew that death would be the result.
Lucifer had already fallen from heaven at that point, there had already been transgression of God's law there first, and don't you think that God would have known that Satan was going to tempt Eve at the tree?
Would God be so unfair to them as to not explain what would happen if they ate it?.
Adam was guilty, he sinned willingly, he willingly took of the fruit from Eve and ate it. It was Eve who was beguiled by the serpant not Adam. Both were guilty, they had disobeyed God. Eve broke the very first commandment of God when she ate the fruit. She placed the word of the Serpent above the Word of God. Both of the stole the fruit from God because it was not theirs to take, they were not allowed to eat it.
The law shows us what sin is, and trangsressing the law is sin. There is no way around that.
The only thing Adam and Eve gained from their disobedience was the knowledge of sin and it's consequences, that is knowledge that they could have done without if you ask me. God is good, He would not have intended for them to eat the fruit and cause all this suffering, but He also would have known that they would eat it, that is why He already had the plan of redemption in place.
God Bless,
Harlin
StarJewel said:I don't believe in eternal torment for mistakes made during a lifetime, because it just seems sadistic to me.... if I believed that God allows it to happen, then I'd have to attribute what I believe to be evil to God.
Someone here said that God is love, but He is also just, and that somehow supports the idea of eternal torment... to be honest, I don't see how. Someone in the Bible says that God is love, but no one says that God is justice. That's why God's love is the most important... it's the essence of God, and His all other attributes are results of it.... so God's justice can't in any way oppose or limit God's love, like many people suggest (the statement "God is love, but He is also just" puts justice in opposition to love) If justice is a result of love, and God's love is infinite and it's the motive of every God's action, then God's justice must somehow result in something good. There's nothing good in eternal punishment. Thet's why I believe that God's justice is only meant to make a person realize the harm they have caused, so that they don't want to do it again. That way it ultimately benefits everyone.
There are people who often describe God's justice using... I don't know how to describe it.... legal terms, or something like that. What I mean are terms like penalty, deserving or not deserving something, and similar things. People use such words to say that sin has a penalty which everyone deserves, and that penalty is eternal hell, and no one deserves to escape it, so even if God only saves some people and forgets about the rest, it's enough to call Him merciful and praise Him for that. Persinally, I believe that such an understanding of God's justice is wrong, because it's just projecting the imperfect human legal system on infinite God. The result of it is that all its faults and imperfections are made infinite too, and that's how ideas such as eternal punishment are created. I understand spiritual growth (progressing towards God) in a different way. I think that, just like normal human growth, it's not something which we deserve or not deserve... it just naturally happens. What brings us closer to God is love, and any human can experience it, no matter what their religious beliefs are. Love and the desire to experience it are natural to every person. Sin is something opposite to love, and that's why it prevents us from getting closer to God. And punishment (I have no idea what it is like... maybe it's literally some kind of God's punishment in the afterlife, or maybe it's just something natural in the Universe, for example that everything we do eventually comes back to us) is meant to show us the harm we have caused, so that we can repent and return to the path of love which brings us to God... That's why it can't be eternal, because that would be pointless... it wouldn't be punishment then, but sadism. However, in that view which I wrote about, there's a possibility that the punishment is eternal, but in a different sense that most conservative and fundamentalist Christians believe... It's possible that a person will continue to act against love forever, and in such a way that it will stop their progress towards God... but, even though it's a possibility, I don't believe that anyone will be like that forever.
Wow, that's a long post... sorry if it was confusing, but it's too hot to think here where I liveThe good thing is that the weather will get better in a few days And I don't know if anything I wrote is actually true..... it's just a belief which makes sense to me. But beliefs are like opinions, so maybe I'm wrong and someone else is right... that's why I'm open to different views.
If you mean Biblical inerrancy, then no, I don't believe in it... as for the sources of my ideas, I'm open to almost anythinglivingword26 said:Do you believe what the bible says? Or do you get your ideas about God and eternity somewhere else?
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