eschatology

TrustAndObey · Sep 9, 2005

jonno said:
With all due respect and love, I still dont think you're answering my question.

I think I am, it's just maybe not in the fashion you'd like me to. Our Savior can return at any minute. No one knows. It is my personal opinion that the Sunday laws must be enforced first, but I will never even pretend to guess the time of His second coming...too many people have tried that and failed miserably. However, I think once the laws are passed, it will all happen very quickly.

What I was saying is the blue laws could be enforced and then Christ will return very quickly after that. It could even be the same day (I think people's decision as to which law they want to follow will be quick. I don't think it will take years of pondering.) As a matter of fact, what we are seeing today is an increased knowledge in the Biblical Sabbath, and people are already questioning WHY their church leaders encourage honoring the first day of the week instead of the seventh.

If the message about God's holy day is taught and spread around the world, by the time the law to enforce Sunday hits, people will already be prepared to make their choice.

**Personal opinion**

StormyOne · Sep 9, 2005

Let me add another significant point.... All those folks in NT times believed that Christ was going to return in their lifetime. All the disciples, the believers, etc. Paul repeatedly talks about being in the last days, and his counsel was given with the point of reference that Christ was returning very soon, so how should a believer be living....

They had developed no prerequisites (sp) for the return of Christ....it is only after there was no 2nd coming that people begin to attempt to explain the delay......

jonno · Sep 9, 2005

StormyOne said:
Let me answer if I may. If we believe that Christ could return at any moment, then our eschatology beliefs may be wrong..... Clearly it doesn't have to unfold the way we believe, and there is no guarantee that it will just because we say it will....

Ancient Israel developed some beliefs about the Messiah and what He would be like when He arrived, yet they missed Him when he came.... maybe there is a lesson in there somewhere for us.....

Thank you for your open-mindedness about the dilemma facing adventists concerning this question. In my experiences, your mentality is a rare find amongst "the remnant".
I do have a possible answer, but I'm afraid it would appear too heretical for even the most liberal and free-thinking adventists. Then again thats only
"my opinion"
Great love
Jonno

StormyOne · Sep 9, 2005

jonno said:
Thank you for your open-mindedness about the dilemma facing adventists concerning this question. In my experiences, your mentality is a rare find amongst "the remnant".
I do have a possible answer, but I'm afraid it would appear too heretical for even the most liberal and free-thinking adventists. Then again thats only
"my opinion"
Great love
Jonno

I also have an answer but it centers around the prayer that Jesus prayed found in John 17..... I think that is the key... but most christians don't even look there.... and the ramifications are profound.... in my opinion...

As for the openmindedness, there are those here who would quickly distance themselves from me suggesting that I am not a true adventist but something else.... lol

TrustAndObey · Sep 9, 2005

I have to be honest Jonno, I don't focus on the mark of the beast at all. My focus is on obtaining the seal of God. One that has the seal need not worry at all about the mark of the beast, so I think it's much more important to study/live how we will receive the seal.

I don't mind hearing differing viewpoints, but I really am focused more on learning about the seal than the mark. It just makes sense to me NOT to worry about the mark when I know being sealed protects me from it.

**I'm sorry I wasn't clearer earlier. I gave up coffee in December and I really only wake up after a shower...lol. I'm showered now but must leave for work soon.**

God bless everyone and have a productive Preparation Day!!!

honorthesabbath · Sep 9, 2005

They had developed no prerequisites (sp) for the return of Christ....it is only after there was no 2nd coming that people begin to attempt to explain the delay

Stormy--this is not true!! Read this....2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Do you see here what Paul is telling the people?? TWO things had to happen BEFORE the return of Christ. First the great APOSTACY had to come in full AND the ANTI-CHRIST power would be revealed!! Now granted--Paul didn't know how long it was going to take to accomplish those two things. I doubt if Paul knew exactly what those 2 things were in detail. But those were the PREREQUISITES to Christs coming. Also.. read ALL of Matthew 24--there MANY PREREQUISITES are given as SIGNS of His coming.

So sorry Stormy--your position is very weak here.

jonno · Sep 9, 2005

honorthesabbath said:
Stormy--this is not true!! Read this....2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Do you see here what Paul is telling the people?? TWO things had to happen BEFORE the return of Christ. First the great APOSTACY had to come in full AND the ANTI-CHRIST power would be revealed!! Now granted--Paul didn't know how long it was going to take to accomplish those two things. I doubt if Paul knew exactly what those 2 things were in detail. But those were the PREREQUISITES to Christs coming. Also.. read ALL of MAtthew 24--there MANY PREREQUISITIES are given as SIGNS of His coming.

So sory Stormy--your position is very weak here.

Hello Honorthesabbath

Yes, your arguments are soundly biblical!
Now these prophecies, together with many other similar ones and coinciding with ones in revelation and daniel: are most of them not yet to come together with your interpretation of taking the seal of God or the mark of the beast?
if so, how can Christ possibly come visibly in the next few minutes as is taught and preached? unless........

honorthesabbath · Sep 9, 2005

jonno said:
Hello again
The past few days has been rather interesting for me. i enjoyed reading views form "real" and maybe "not so real" Seventh Day Adventists as I presume Cliff2 so subtlely implied.
However I am amazed that the crux of the initial question that I posed on my introduction to this wonderful forum has really not been answered.
Allow me to repeat the question.
If as you teach and believe, that our Lord and Saviour could visibly return this very moment, how does this event impact your rather dogmatic prophecy concerning the future enforcing of Sunday worship and thereby taking your interpretation of the '
'mark of the beast'.
I have much more to comment on and question following the interesting reading your comments have made, but this question suffices for now.
God bless
Jonno

Hi Jonno--I'm not sure which church you worship with--but as historic Adventists we have NEVER taught or believed that Christ would return "at any moment". We have always known that certain PROPHECIES HAD to be fulfilled BEFORE His return. So your question really doesn't address any Adventist belief. I hope this finally answered it for you.

jonno · Sep 9, 2005

honorthesabbath said:
Hi Jonno--I'm not sure which church you worship with--but as historic Adventists we have NEVER taught or believed that Christ would return "at any moment". We have always known that certain PROPHECIES HAD to be fulfilled BEFORE His return. So your question really doesn't address any Adventist belief. I hope this finally answered it for you.

Sorry, I'm confused. Youre christian and you dont believe the many biblical warnings that Christ could come at any time and so be ready?

statrei · Sep 9, 2005

honorthesabbath said:
Hi Jonno--I'm not sure which church you worship with--but as historic Adventists we have NEVER taught or believed that Christ would return "at any moment". We have always known that certain PROPHECIES HAD to be fulfilled BEFORE His return. So your question really doesn't address any Adventist belief. I hope this finally answered it for you.

A good demonstration that Historic Adventism is out of touch with history.

statrei · Sep 9, 2005

TrustAndObey said:
I have to be honest Jonno, I don't focus on the mark of the beast at all. My focus is on obtaining the seal of God. One that has the seal need not worry at all about the mark of the beast, so I think it's much more important to study/live how we will receive the seal.

But if you think the Sabbath is the seal you are in for a rude awakening.

statrei · Sep 9, 2005

StormyOne said:
I included that particular quote because she indicated in 1849 that the Time of Trouble had already started. We believe that when the time of trouble starts, some significant events have been finished.

You should add to that the fact that in 1856 she wrote that the angel had informed her that Christ would return before the people who were alive then died.

SassySDA · Sep 9, 2005

jonno said:
Sorry, I'm confused. Youre christian and you dont believe the many biblical warnings that Christ could come at any time and so be ready?

Her answer is correct. Adventists do believe that certain prophecy has to be fulfilled first, prophecies that stem from biblical scripture, NOT writings of Ellen G. White. I just thought I would put that in there, because I thought it might be the next question.

Our time, and the time of heaven is not the same. Our days, weeks, months, years, are not the same as they are for the Lord. Any time, could BE anytime for Him. For instance...lets say he comes exactly one year from today....it would be a "year" to us here on earth, but to Him? A day? Do you understand what I'm saying? Time isn't the same for Him and those who serve Him.

Rather than hope to calculate a specific day, my eye is on the world around me and the events that are taking place. That is part of the "being ready". Knowing WHAT to look for, and actively watching for it to occur. Staying close to the Lord, following Him, having the testimony of Jesus, and the seal of God. That's all that is important, Jonno. THAT is how we stay ready and "be prepared".

When He said, "I come like a thief in the night", He didn't mean that no one will hear Him or see Him, what He meant was the day that He does return, while being the single greatest event of earth's history, will be like any ordinary day, nothing that will tell us, "Hey today's the day, get down on your knees and repent, etc., for He's coming this day". "No, He will just ascend, and if you aren't ready, by the time you see and hear Him ascending from heaven, it will be too late.

Get ready NOW brethren, for the hour and the day of His return is not known to us, and will not be known until we hear the trumpets and see His glory...

Amen!

statrei · Sep 9, 2005

SassySDA said:
Get ready NOW brethren, for the hour and the day of His return is not known to us, and will not be known until we hear the trumpets and see His glory...

Amen!

That is good advice. However, it must be considered against the backdrop of the fact that we determine when His train leaves the depot.

StormyOne · Sep 9, 2005

There is a text that says No man knows the day or hour... which means if we suggest that certain things must happen before the 2nd coming we are saying we know (in a general sense) maybe not the day but the month or year? Thanks for the texts Honor, I will respond to them if this thread continues...

daveleau · Sep 9, 2005

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Alright everyone. The report process is here for a reason. If you report someone, do not address the post you are reporting. Do not tell people you are ignoring them. If you want to ignore them, we have an ignore feature. But, it is against the rules to tell someone they are being ignored. This is a flame. Every member in this thread is an SDA. Some have gone through a rigorous verification of their ties to SDA. In this rigorous process of the(se) member(s), a very tangible and binding tie to the SDA faith has been proven to staff. This(these) members are not going anywhere.

Questioning theology is fully allowed for those that are SDAs. There are two ways and ONLY two ways to deal with these questions:
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honorthesabbath · Sep 9, 2005

statrei said:
My apologies. Since you did not provide a post number I just assumed it was one of the many PM's you had sent me.

Just a minute. Was that you, or happyinthelord. Come to think of it, I don't remember which. Whichever it was at least you have clarified that you were just quoting from an earlier you had made.

I have NEVER sent you a PM in my life!!!!!!!!

StormyOne · Sep 9, 2005

honorthesabbath said:
Stormy--this is not true!! Read this....2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Do you see here what Paul is telling the people?? TWO things had to happen BEFORE the return of Christ. First the great APOSTACY had to come in full AND the ANTI-CHRIST power would be revealed!! Now granted--Paul didn't know how long it was going to take to accomplish those two things. I doubt if Paul knew exactly what those 2 things were in detail. But those were the PREREQUISITES to Christs coming. Also.. read ALL of Matthew 24--there MANY PREREQUISITES are given as SIGNS of His coming.

So sorry Stormy--your position is very weak here.

Honor,
Thanks again for the texts. I don't mind being wrong, everyday is an opportunity to learn.

I submit for your consideration this text:

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

When reading the letters to the churches of Asia Minor it is clear that a falling away from the church had begun, so my point is while Paul may have said it, by the time John is writing the churches those two criteria had been met....

honorthesabbath · Sep 9, 2005

StormyOne said:
Honor,
Thanks again for the texts. I don't mind being wrong, everyday is an opportunity to learn.

I submit for your consideration this text:

When reading the letters to the churches of Asia Minor it is clear that a falling away from the church had begun, so my point is while Paul may have said it, by the time John is writing the churches those to criteria had been met....

Stormy--look carefully at 2THess. Paul uses the very special term here--"the son of perdition". Only one other time is that term used. Jesus used it in reference to Judas, His BETRAYER. Now when John was writing the book of Revelation--that particular son of perdition's office hadn't even come yet. THe papacy hadn't even been born yet!! So no--the "criteria" had NOT been met then either. Mix that with all the other warning and signs in scripture--and ONLY our day came match them. They are too numerous for me to type here and now--but go over them again for yourself. You'll see what I am talking about.

statrei · Sep 9, 2005

I think if we respect each other's right to have an opinion that we can make the work of these hard workiing moderator's much more pleasurable. We won't all agree but we don't have to be disagreeable.

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