The problem is if a gay customer asked the baker to make a cake identical to one previously used by a straight couple, the message obviously isn't coming from the cake but the orientation of the customer. And if that customer's orientation is the reason for discriminating against them, it would create issues for the business in a number of jurisdictions.Speech can be expressed as pictures, symbols, or art forms. A wedding cake can say "these two people are being joined together in marital bliss" without the words actually being printed on the cake. And the baker didn't want to say that in the case of a homosexual couple.
The problem is if a gay customer asked the baker to make a cake identical to one previously used by a straight couple, the message obviously isn't coming from the cake but the orientation of the customer. And if that customer's orientation is the reason for discriminating against them, it would create issues for the business in a number of jurisdictions.
The problem is if a gay customer asked the baker to make a cake identical to one previously used by a straight couple, the message obviously isn't coming from the cake but the orientation of the customer. And if that customer's orientation is the reason for discriminating against them, it would create issues for the business in a number of jurisdictions.
Apparently when you’ve already decided that you’ll do no weddings where two men or two women are the couple.In what universe is it customary for a customer to disclose his sexual orientation to a baker when ordering a cake?
A cake as speech is just the result of watching too many seasons of Great British Baking Show, where every "showstopper" is basically a memoir.
Apparently when you’ve already decided that you’ll do no weddings where two men or two women are the couple.
We don’t know . The Supreme Court avoided deciding the case on its merits. It’s possible that the decision might go either way.Is decorating a cake considered an art? Is art considered speech, such as BLM grafitti?
Why ask? Unless of course you planned to discriminate.Is that what the customer decided? That's who I asked about.
One in which the customer gives even the most cursory information about their spouse-to-be. Or if they go shopping for the cake together.In what universe is it customary for a customer to disclose his sexual orientation to a baker when ordering a cake?
It isn't so much if it is considered speech, but if the mere existence of a cake screams "I, the person who baked this, clearly support gay marriage". Most times the cake is pretty neutral on that subject.Is decorating a cake considered an art? Is art considered speech, such as BLM grafitti?
A good point. If the message can't be discerned is there a message at all?It isn't so much if it is considered speech, but if the mere existence of a cake screams "I, the person who baked this, clearly support gay marriage". Most times the cake is pretty neutral on that subject.
Should we repeat the experiment from previous threads where we post pictures of cakes with zero extra context and no one can tell which ones are "gay" cakes?
'S'what I've been sayin'. The only speech here is "Look! A cake!" (Though I will concede that the posts that followed mine said it better.)A good point. If the message can't be discerned is there a message at all?
Asked and answered. You haven't read my answers.This would be more convincing if you provided any sort of reason to believe it.
The customer didn't want him to do any event, so this diversion is irrelevant.
In what way?
The argument is that making a wedding act is a creative effort, that is based on an understanding of the couple. It’s not the same as selling them a stock item. A court would have to review whether that argument makes sense. I don’t think it does, but I could imagine a court accepting it. I don’t think arguments among us are likely to very useful.'S'what I've been sayin'. The only speech here is "Look! A cake!" (Though I will concede that the posts that followed mine said it better.)
Re cakes I think it goes either way.Is decorating a cake considered an art? Is art considered speech, such as BLM grafitti?
I think we are mostly in agreement. I agree also that whatever we might agree on here is very unlikely to affect any arguments any lawyer might use.The argument is that making a wedding act is a creative effort, that is based on an understanding of the couple. It’s not the same as selling them a stock item. A court would have to review whether that argument makes sense. I don’t think it does, but I could imagine a court accepting it. I don’t think arguments among us are likely to very useful.
Why ask? Unless of course you planned to discriminate.
One in which the customer gives even the most cursory information about their spouse-to-be. Or if they go shopping for the cake together.
These sorts of questions are supposed to be phrased such that it implies it the fault of the gay customer for not hiding who they are, but as written it even fails at that because straight couples are going to "disclose" it most of the time by using a simple pronoun to refer to their spouse.
It isn't so much if it is considered speech, but if the mere existence of a cake screams "I, the person who baked this, clearly support gay marriage". Most times the cake is pretty neutral on that subject.
Should we repeat the experiment from previous threads where we post pictures of cakes with zero extra context and no one can tell which ones are "gay" cakes?
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