Equality Act & Religious Freedom

[KCfromNC]

If the cake is really decorated in such a "neutral" way, then the customer ordering it can be just as neutral about their sexual preferences.

Yep, which is why the baker has a long history of refusing to make wedding cakes for women who mention in any way their spouse is male. After all, failing to be "neutral about their sexual preferences" is a reason the baker consistently kicked straight customers out of his shop, right?

 

[KCfromNC]

They don't need to. All they have to do is not go to the bakery they know won't fill their order.

Just like black people should not go to restaurants they know won't serve them.

 

[KCfromNC]

Does he spell out what those religious beliefs are or what they prohibit or am I left to just guess?

He's obviously talking about refusing service to anyone who is divorced or overweight. Or who doesn't have the self control to be celibate. Or anyone wanting to marry a Jewish person. Or doesn't have a good relationship with their parents. You know, things which are actually in the Bible, as opposed to not baking cakes for minorities, which I haven't been able to find.

 

[Yttrium]

Yep, which is why the baker has a long history of refusing to make wedding cakes for women who mention in any way their spouse is male. After all, failing to be "neutral about their sexual preferences" is a reason the baker consistently kicked straight customers out of his shop, right?

KC, why do you keep inferring that the baker kicked the homosexual couple out of his shop? He didn't. He refused to make a wedding cake for them. The couple was welcome to hang around and buy other baked goods if they wanted. I generally like your comments, but this is kind of grating.

 

[Quartermaine]

KC, why do you keep inferring that the baker kicked the homosexual couple out of his shop? He didn't. He refused to make a wedding cake for them. The couple was welcome to hang around and buy other baked goods if they wanted. I generally like your comments, but this is kind of grating.

During segregation most restaurants would allow black people to order take out....so long as they came to the back door to pick it up so obviously these restaurants were not discriminating against black people in any way...right?

 

[Yttrium]

During segregation most restaurants would allow black people to order take out....so long as they came to the back door to pick it up so obviously these restaurants were not discriminating against black people in any way...right?

>_<

This has nothing to do with my question to KC. Yes, they were discriminating, and so was the baker.

 

[Aldebaran]

Yep, which is why the baker has a long history of refusing to make wedding cakes for women who mention in any way their spouse is male. After all, failing to be "neutral about their sexual preferences" is a reason the baker consistently kicked straight customers out of his shop, right?

Why would that come up? Just order a cake, pay for it, and be done. Quit complicating things with unrelated banter and trying to find ways to get your order refused.

 

[Aldebaran]

Just like black people should not go to restaurants they know won't serve them.

Show me one that does that or your comment is irrelevant and is nothing more than goading.

 

[KCfromNC]

KC, why do you keep inferring that the baker kicked the homosexual couple out of his shop?

Because that's the testimony I've read. He told them he wouldn't make them a cake because they were gay and the couple left without ordering.

I mean, I guess they could have hung around for a while continuing to not be allowed to order a cake, but the implication of "I'm not going to sell you the cake you want" and ending the conversation is pretty clear.

The couple was welcome to hang around and buy other baked goods if they wanted.

That might be the claim, but in the past he also refused to sell cupcakes to a lesbian couple. There have been a lot of after-the-fact claims about what he might have done, but those seem more like excuses rather than a legitimate expectation of the guys behavior.

 

[KCfromNC]

Why would that come up?

Why would the names of a customer come up? Really? This is the argument we're supposed to take seriously? Someone's going to go through the entire process of ordering a custom wedding cake and never once slip up and accidentally mention any details of their spouse.

Come on, a let's try to be serious here.

 

[KCfromNC]

Show me one that does that or your comment is irrelevant and is nothing more than goading.

You might want to review the definition of goading - and I doubt you'll find "pointing out a relevant recent historical parallel" in any dictionary out there.

But in any case, you'll note that restaurants don't use this excuse any more because it would identify them as illegally discriminating against minority groups.

 

[HannahT]

Maybe his religion prohibits race mixing. He could be a part of a religion that forbids mixed religion weddings. What if his religion is opposed to any marriage that occurs outside of his own religion. Perhaps he is a Shaker and is opposed to all marriage. All are possible based on that vague statement. Is there a reason he can’t just be completely honest and state what he would object to?

Again, the statement is enough said. If you feel it isn't honest? I wouldn't do business with him. I mean I don't do business with people I don't think are honest. If you are just looking for clarification on your specific circumstance? A phone call is all you need. You don't like the answer? You move on.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

Again, the statement is enough said. If you feel it isn't honest? I wouldn't do business with him. I mean I don't do business with people I don't think are honest. If you are just looking for clarification on your specific circumstance? A phone call is all you need. You don't like the answer? You move on.

He could just straight up say he refuses to bake cakes for same-sex weddings. Why is that so hard for him be up front with everyone and just say it?

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

The argument is that making a wedding act is a creative effort, that is based on an understanding of the couple. It’s not the same as selling them a stock item. A court would have to review whether that argument makes sense. I don’t think it does, but I could imagine a court accepting it. I don’t think arguments among us are likely to very useful.

Correct. One cannot compel an artist to do what he doesn't want to do. That's speech. He won't make anti-gay cakes either. Or KKK cakes. But he will sell anyone a generic cake.

 

[Quartermaine]

Again, the statement is enough said. If you feel it isn't honest? I wouldn't do business with him. I mean I don't do business with people I don't think are honest. If you are just looking for clarification on your specific circumstance? A phone call is all you need. You don't like the answer? You move on.

Why should minorities have to call ahead to business to see is they will be treated like human beings?

 

[KCfromNC]

Correct. One cannot compel an artist to do what he doesn't want to do.

That's nice, but what does it have to do with this case, where a guy volunteered to become a baker and now wants to be able to ignore anti-discrimination laws because he has an opinion?

 

[HannahT]

He could just straight up say he refuses to bake cakes for same-sex weddings. Why is that so hard for him be up front with everyone and just say it?

I think it is pretty clear he has already said that. Matter of fact that is what the lawsuit was partially about. He straight up told them he doesn't do those types of cakes.

 

[Aldebaran]

Why would the names of a customer come up? Really? This is the argument we're supposed to take seriously? Someone's going to go through the entire process of ordering a custom wedding cake and never once slip up and accidentally mention any details of their spouse.

Come on, a let's try to be serious here.

Pick out a cake, pay the money, leave the store. Not very difficult.

 

[Aldebaran]

You might want to review the definition of goading - and I doubt you'll find "pointing out a relevant recent historical parallel" in any dictionary out there.

But in any case, you'll note that restaurants don't use this excuse any more because it would identify them as illegally discriminating against minority groups.

Then you admit that your mentioning of black people here is irrelevant.

 

[Aldebaran]

He could just straight up say he refuses to bake cakes for same-sex weddings. Why is that so hard for him be up front with everyone and just say it?

It might be due to the fact that there are so many different types of decorations that could be thought of to put on a cake that it would be impossible to put out a statement that includes all of them. If he said he doesn't bake them for SSM events, then he'd had to point out every vulgar image that he also wouldn't put on a cake for other themes, such as nazi symbols, or penises, or anti-Christian sayings, etc. By simply saying that he doesn't use decorations or writings that conflict with his beliefs is about as specific as he could get.