Equal Rights

[gengwall]

And you claimed the church (in tot ) led the fight for the abolition of slavery and equality for women, and that anyone saying differently was guilty of revising history to suit some agenda. Yet how is your claim possible when obviously a significant portion of the church was supportive of slavery, racism and sexism?
(I notice you chaged goalposts here…downgrading it to a “great portion&#8221

Fair enough. I revise my statement. Many leaders in the church were at the forefront of both the abolition of slavery and women's sufferage.

Now, I wonder if pekkle will change the opening post.

 

[BigBadWlf]

When God called them wives he was calling them what they were. It's hardly a difficult concept.

And in calling them wives God gave his Godly approval of their marriage and his approval to polygamy. Not a difficult concept to understand.

It doesn't mean that God approves of every marital configuration. If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, you may rightly calll it a duck. That doesn't mean you have to approve of all ducks.

He certainly approved of polygamy. Why else would God call them wives if he disapproved of having more than one wife at a time?

 

[TheManeki]

David, a man after God's own heart, was a polygamist. So was Solomon, the wisest man evar!!!1!

 

[gengwall]

And a great portion of the church -- the conservative, fundamentalist part -- had to be dragged kicking and screaming by the other portion -- the liberal, progressive part.

Now, it may not have been that way in Minnesota, but down here in the southeastern US the most vocal part of the church (and possibly the most numerous, at least among whites) was the conservative, fundamentalist part that did not want equal rights for non-whites and could quote scripture backing up their position.

I would be interested in how you differentiate the conservative fundimentalist part of the church from the liberal progressive part in the periods in question (primarily from the founding of the country through the 1930s). It seems to me the whole of the church was pretty conservative and fundimentalist during that entire period.

Now, I do agree that progressives were instrumental in promoting inter-racial marriage and are certainly the predominant Christian voices heard in favor of gay marriage. So I recognize the shift over time. But, again, the "Church", big "C" is made up of both those poles and everyone in between. So there is no justification in accusing THE CHURCH on any of these issues.

 

[Aeris]

Like I have said before, it is amazing that those opposed to same-sex marriages are using the same arguments that those opposed to interracial marriage used. It's like cheating on a test, but choosing to copy the dumbest kid in the class' paper.

For more quotes, look here. (.pdf format)

LOL unfortunately theres too much truth in this.

 

[gengwall]

David, a man after God's own heart, was a polygamist. So was Solomon, the wisest man evar!!!1!

So what?

 

[BigBadWlf]

David, a man after God's own heart, was a polygamist. So was Solomon, the wisest man evar!!!1!

and God appoved too...immagine that

 

[gengwall]

And in calling them wives God gave his Godly approval of their marriage and his approval to polygamy. Not a difficult concept to understand.

Says who? God certainly never said in biblical teaching that he approves of every relationship that can rightly be called a marriage.

He certainly approved of polygamy. Why else would God call them wives if he disapproved of having more than one wife at a time?

Because it was a simple fact that they had more than one wife at a time. Again, I don't understand how you justify the connection that something that is historical fact makes it God approved. It is a historical fact that David seduced (or maybe even raped) Bathsheba and then arranged the murder of her husband to cover his sin. Does that make his actions God approved? People in the bible, even great Godly people, made horrible msitakes and committed grevious sins. Just because God approved of them as servants and used them in His plan does not mean he approved of every action they took. The bible is full of examples of godly people doing very ungodly things. It certainly continues even to this day.

 

[gengwall]

and God appoved too...immagine that

Again, just to be clear (if not redundant), just because God approved of David does not mean God approved of everything David did. The bible is in fact clear that God disapproved of a great many things David did.

 

[TheManeki]

Again, just to be clear (if not redundant), just because God approved of David does not mean God approved of everything David did. The bible is in fact clear that God disapproved of a great many things David did.

Correct. David was not perfect, and God did correct him many times. Interestingly enough, not once was he corrected for being polygamous. Ditto for Solomon.

Care to try again?

 

[gengwall]

Correct. David was not perfect, and God did correct him many times. Interestingly enough, not once was he corrected for being polygamous. Ditto for Solomon.

Care to try again?

Well, Solomon was "corrected" in the sense that his many non-Jewish wives caused him great strife and significantly impacted his usefulness for God. David's extra marriages were no picnic for him either.

I am not saying that God banned polygamy (except he did for Kings, so David and Solomon were both in violation of the law and therefore their multiple marriages were, in fact, disapproved of). But I also do not believe God approves of polygamy. The pattern for godly marriage was set by God in Genesis - one man and one woman. Very quickly, the culture started to stray from that pattern. It has caused much suffering and strife ever since. God has never "blessed" polygamous marriage as a "good" equivalent to what He ordained in the beginning. In fact, polygamy is much more akin to divorce, something that God tolerates because of the hardness of the human heart toward Him, but something He never-the-less hates.

 

[TheManeki]

Well, Solomon was "corrected" in the sense that his many non-Jewsih wives caused him great strife and significantly impacted his usefulness for God.

Bzzt. Solomon was "corrected" for having wives of a different faith, not for having multiple wives. It's in I Kings 11:1-9.

I am not saying that God banned polygamy (except he did for Kings, so David and Solomon were both in violation of the law and therefore their multiple marriages were, in fact, disapproved of).

Despite the fact there is no record of this disapproval. Who are you getting this from, anyway?

But I also do not believe God approves of polygamy. The pattern godly for marriage was set by God in Genesis - one man and one woman. Very quickly, the culture started to stray from that pattern.

Sure you're not reading that myth right in the first place? After all, Eve came from Adam's rib, so the only literal interpretation is that men should only marry women who are made from their rib.

It has caused much suffering and strife ever since. God has never "blessed" polygamous marriage as a "good" equivalent to what He ordained in the beginning. In fact, polygamy is much more akin to divorce, something that God tolerates because of the hardness of the human heart toward Him, but something He never-the-less hates.

I'd love to know who taught you all this stuff, since it certainly isn't in the Bible.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Says who? God certainly never said in biblical teaching that he approves of every relationship that can rightly be called a marriage


Because it was a simple fact that they had more than one wife at a time.

And in calling them wives God gave his Godly approval of their marriage and his approval to polygamy. Still not a difficult concept to understand.

Again, I don't understand how you justify the connection that something that is historical fact makes it God approved.

and God approved of them all
he lifted no finger to call multiple wives wrong in any way.

It is a historical fact that David seduced (or maybe even raped) Bathsheba and then arranged the murder of her husband to cover his sin. Does that make his actions God approved?

God declared David’s ONLY sin to be what you just alluded to. God didn’t say David sinned by having multiple wives, or even the rape of Bathsheba was not a sin. just his having Uriah offed.

People in the bible, even great Godly people, made horrible msitakes and committed grevious sins. Just because God approved of them as servants and used them in His plan does not mean he approved of every action they took. The bible is full of examples of godly people doing very ungodly things. It certainly continues even to this day.

And God calls those horrible acts sins…but having multiple wives…that never gets called a sin.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Again, just to be clear (if not redundant), just because God approved of David does not mean God approved of everything David did. The bible is in fact clear that God disapproved of a great many things David did.

“For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life—except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.” 1 kings 15:5

 

[Maren]

Well, Solomon was "corrected" in the sense that his many non-Jewish wives caused him great strife and significantly impacted his usefulness for God. David's extra marriages were no picnic for him either.

I am not saying that God banned polygamy (except he did for Kings, so David and Solomon were both in violation of the law and therefore their multiple marriages were, in fact, disapproved of). But I also do not believe God approves of polygamy. The pattern for godly marriage was set by God in Genesis - one man and one woman. Very quickly, the culture started to stray from that pattern. It has caused much suffering and strife ever since. God has never "blessed" polygamous marriage as a "good" equivalent to what He ordained in the beginning. In fact, polygamy is much more akin to divorce, something that God tolerates because of the hardness of the human heart toward Him, but something He never-the-less hates.

Actually, I don't see where you claims can be Biblically supported. The fact is, when the Lord sent Nathan to chastise David, the Lord said that He gave wives to David:

7And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; 8And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

And what is more interesting, the Lord doesn't condemn David here for taking another wife but only for David coveting Uriah's wife and killing Uriah. The Lord makes it clear that if David would have come to Him, He would have given David more wives.

 

[pekkle]

Didn't realise this thread had been so popular.

I'm surprised this hasn't been deleted, like 9 of my other 25 posts have been