Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

mike1reynolds · Jul 19, 2006

ETide said:
AMEN,
Anyone else..?
Anyone willing to say whether or not that they ARE, or ARE NOT working for their salvation..?

In order to exemplify how this question doesnt penetrate to the heart of the matter, let me ask the opposite question. Can you be saved by doing nothing? Can you just rest on your laurels?

I think that it is self apparent that you must do something, but the context in which you pose the question obscures what this is. I agree completely that you cant earn salvation just a child cannot earn growth, yet if a child fails to grow it is a serious problem. The whole emphasis on earn is misleading if you do not fill out the argument. I have fleshed out an argument with an identical thesis, but it explicitly precludes salvation by inaction. Your expression of this thesis does not exclude the possibility that one can be saved by doing nothing. That is what people object to, and it is not at all vital to your thesis. Address that issue and I think all objections to your thesis will evaporate.

WarriorAngel · Jul 19, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
In order to exemplify how this question doesnt penetrate to the heart of the matter, let me ask the opposite question. Can you be saved by doing nothing? Can you just rest on your laurels?

I think that it is self apparent that you must do something, but the context in which you pose the question obscures what this is. I agree completely that you cant earn salvation just a child cannot earn growth, yet if a child fails to grow it is a serious problem. The whole emphasis on earn is misleading if you do not fill out the argument. I have fleshed out an argument with an identical thesis, but it explicitly precludes salvation by inaction. Your expression of this thesis does not exclude the possibility that one can be saved by doing nothing. That is what people object to, and it is not at all vital to your thesis. Address that issue and I think all objections to your thesis will evaporate.

Theophorus · Jul 19, 2006

ETide said:
WarriorAngel said:

You trust in yourself, and you are a man...

Click to expand...

Obviously you have no basis for this statement at all.. it's pointless to discuss these things when statements like this are made..

No basis .

16Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

JCrawf · Jul 19, 2006

Ok, I'll be the pest that some of you claim I am (hey, the guy I look like noted that he was a gnat to the Athenians ), so I'll just shoot it out (and get shot in the process):

What does anyone say about St. Paul's statement here?

"Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12-13)

Is St. Paul contradicting himself in first saying for believer to work out their salvation, and then say it is God at work in the believer? If not, then what do you think he means here?

Pax Vobiscum,

John

racer · Jul 19, 2006

Trento said:
HISTORY of the CHRISTIAN CHURCH - Phillip Schaff

CHAPTER X.

CHURCH FATHERS, AND THEOLOGICAL LITERATURE

Quote Schaff--
"We recall his (Augustine's) famous anti-Manichaean dictum: "Ego evangelio non crederem, nisi me catholicae ecclesiae commoveret auctoritas." The Protestant would reverse this maxim, and ground his faith in the church on his faith in Christ and in the gospel. "

It was, indeed, a full and unconditional surrender of Augustine's mind and heart to God, but it was at the same time a submission of his private judgment to the authority of the church which led him to the faith of the gospel.

How embarrassing it must be to the Protestant scholars ! Imagine having the scholarly reputation that they have, yet also being incessantly guilty of fundamental logical errors in evaluating Augustine's Theology.
They have all the credentials and expertise, only to regretfully succumb to significant misunderstanding about how to evaluate church history.

Trento,

These scholars do not even believe themselves to be infallible. It's a little puzzling that you do. I mean you are asserting that what is posted here is the proof I asserted you have not given right?

Trento · Jul 19, 2006

ETide said:
.

This is 99% of the problem in my estimation, because many many people are taught that their baptism was the point in their life when they received the Spirit of God and were born again. Of course there's no assurance in what we do.. or in the acts of men in baptizing a person.. baptism is for those who ALREADY believe on the Lord Jesus Christ..

I have seen many examples of "interpretations" of Scripture being coloured by predetermined concepts. Let me give an example.

Scripture says we must believe and be Baptised to be saved (Mk16:16) We read where St Paul was Baptised well after embracing the Faith "for the forgivenmess of his sins" (Acts 22:16). The necessity to be born of water and the Spirit to enter Heaven - is obviously Christian Baptism as there are so many Scriptural parallels but more importantly there is a constancy / consistency during the first few centuries across the various centres of Christianity to make certain this was the intent and teaching of the writer.

Yet we find people saying Baptism is unnecessary - why? - because we are saved by faith alone is the answer - so the presumed doctrine overwhelms Scripture to the point that much of it is then dismissed, historical Apostolic teaching is dismissed. A whole structure is built on a premise - the premise is said to be "suggested" in Scripture yet Scripture plainly records that "you cannot be saved by Faith alone". Of course this is vandalised to again support the original premise - a premise that is absent from Christianity for the first 1500yrs.

All this stuff is made possible by validating personal opinion above Apostolic teaching.

Theophorus · Jul 19, 2006

JCrawf said:
Ok, I'll be the pest that some of you claim I am (hey, the guy I look like noted that he was a gnat to the Athenians ), so I'll just shoot it out (and get shot in the process):

What does anyone say about St. Paul's statement here?

"Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it isGod who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12-13)

Is St. Paul contradicting himself in first saying for believer to work out their salvation, and then say it is God at work in the believer? If not, then what do you think he means here?

Pax Vobiscum,

John

But salvation has nothing to do with "works".....So when one receieves the Holy Spirit, God sometimes does not work in a believer, this is because Salvation is different than the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

And when you take away the sacraments, grace then becomes completely self willed, or at least self proclaimed.

calmcoolandelected · Jul 19, 2006

JCrawf said:
Ok, I'll be the pest that some of you claim I am (hey, the guy I look like noted that he was a gnat to the Athenians ), so I'll just shoot it out (and get shot in the process):

What does anyone say about St. Paul's statement here?

"Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it isGod who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12-13)

Is St. Paul contradicting himself in first saying for believer to work out their salvation, and then say it is God at work in the believer? If not, then what do you think he means here?

Pax Vobiscum,

John

Read on in Phillipians. Paul goes on to stress it is by God's Will that His people should be saved, by God's righteous gift and not by striving to establish their own.

Phil 3:7-8

7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ

Here Paul says that he realizes his confidence in his ability to obey the law was a great sin for it kept him from trusting God and he is disgusted by it.

Regeneration is a momentary, one-time act in which God changes the condition of one's heart from spiritual death to eternal life. A dead man cannot do anything...period.

Sanctification is the life-long process in which God renews the whole man into the image of Christ.

CC&E

calmcoolandelected · Jul 19, 2006

Theophorus said:
But salvation has nothing to do with "works".....So when one receieves the Holy Spirit, God sometimes does not work in a believer, this is because Salvation is different than the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

And when you take away the sacraments, grace then becomes completely self willed, or at least self proclaimed.

I disagree here. Salvation is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:5

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Ps 51:10-12

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.

Ezekiel 36:25-27

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

lionroar0 · Jul 19, 2006

racer said:
Then I guess we've missed it.

But can we gleem that Jesus is 100% God and 100% human from Scriptures? Can this be done with out someone teaching that Jesus is 100% God and 100% human, before hand and then showing scriptures to back this up?

The point is we read the Scriptures and come to the conclusion that Jesus is 100% God and 100% human, because that is part of Tradition that has been taught before we read the Scriptures.

Thus it is not in Scripture. Scripture does not say that Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. The gnostics used Scriptures with out Tradition and came to the conclusion that Jesus was not really human.

No where does Scripture say that Jesus is 100% percent human and 100% God. This is something that is a Tradition that is taught 1st then certain verses are interpreted to mean and prove that Jesus is 100% human and 100%God.

Peace

Theophorus · Jul 19, 2006

calmcoolandelected said:
I disagree here. Salvation is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:5

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Ps 51:10-12

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.

Ezekiel 36:25-27

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

I agree. Salvation cannot be separated from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
So, if a person has this indwelling it should be manifest, according to the logic of some.

Theophorus · Jul 19, 2006

calmcoolandelected said:
Read on in Phillipians. Paul goes on to stress it is by God's Will that His people should be saved, by God's righteous gift and not by striving to establish their own.

The irony here.

JCrawf · Jul 20, 2006

Robskiwarrior said:
baptismos {bap-tis-mos'} Strongs Ref: 909

1) a washing, purification effected by means of water a) of washing prescribed by the Mosaic law (Heb 9:10) which seems to mean an exposition of the difference between the washings prescribed by the Mosaic law and Christian baptism

Coming from the route word of

baptizo {bap-tid'-zo} Strongs Ref: 907

1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe 3) to overwhelm

Coming from the route word

bapto {bap'-to}

1) to dip, dip in, immerse 2) to dip into dye, to dye, colour

That one just caught my eye and I thought you would like to know some facts. I would like to add that there is no referance to pouring - its mearly washing, and then the Route of that word baptizo describes how its done. Then the route of baptizo goes even further.

And a few more dictionary entries:

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon

baptisma baptism, NTest.

baptismos a dipping in water, ablution, NTest.

baptizô

- - 1. to dip in or under water; metaph., bebaptismenoi soaked in wine, Plat.; ophlêmasi beb. over head and ears in debt, Plut.

- - 2. to baptize, tina NTest.:--Pass., baptizesthai eis metanoian, eis aphesin hamartiôn id=NTest.:--Mid. to get oneself baptized, id=NTest.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon

bapt-isma , atos, to,

A. baptism, Ev.Matt.3.7, etc.; b. eis ton thanaton Ep.Rom.6.4 .

bapt-ismos , ho,

A. dipping in water, immersion, Ev.Marc.7.4, Ep.Hebr.9.10, Antyll. ap. Orib.10.3.9.

- - 2. metaph., eis kakias b. oichêsetai Theol.Ar.30 .

- - 3. lethargic sleep, Archig.and Posidon. ap. Aët.6.3.

- - 4. baptism, J.AJ 18.5.2.

bapt-istêrion , to,

A. swimming-bath, Plin.Ep.2.17.11.

bapt-izô

A. dip, plunge, xiphos eis sphagên J.BJ2.18.4 ; spathion eis to embruon Sor.2.63 :--Pass., of a trephine, Gal.10.447; baptison seauton eis thalassan Plu.2.166a ; b. Dionuson pros tên thalassan ib. 914d:--in Pass., to be drowned, Epict.Gnom.47; of ships, sink or disable them, Plb.1.51.6, 16.6.2 (Pass.); ebaptisan tên polin flooded the city, metaph., of the crowds who flocked into Jerusalem at the time of the siege, J.BJ4.3.3; b. tina eisphorais D.S.1.73 ; b. tina hupnôi AP11.49 (Even.); hupnôi bebaptismenos Archig. and Posidon. ap. Aët. 6.3:--Pass., hôs ek tou bebaptisthai anapneousi Hp.Epid.5.63 ; to be drenched, Eub.68: metaph., bebaptismenoi soaked in wine, Pl.Smp. 176b ; ophlêmasi beb. over head and ears in debt, Plu.Galb.21; gnous baptizomenon to meirakion seeing that he was getting into deep water, Pl.Euthd.277d; b. eis anaisthêsian kai hupnon J.AJ10.9.4 ; ho tôi thumôi bebaptismenos kataduetai Ach.Tat.6.19 ; psuchê bebaptismenê lupêi Lib.Or.64.115 .

- - 2. draw wine by dipping the cup in the bowl, Aristopho 14.5; phialais b. ek . . kratêrôn Plu.Alex.67 .

- - 3. baptize, [p. 306] tina Ev.Marc.1.4 ; en hudati eis metanoian Ev.Matt.3.11 :--Pass., baptisthêtô hekastos eis aphesin hamartiôn Act.Ap.2.38 ; eis Christon Ep.Rom.6.3 , etc.:--Med., dip oneself, LXX4 Ki.5.14; get oneself baptized, Act.Ap.22.16, 1 Ep.Cor.10.2:--Pass., perform ablutions, Ev.Luc. 11.38.

Pax Tecum,

John

JCrawf · Jul 20, 2006

racer said:
Trento,

These scholars do not even believe themselves to be infallible. It's a little puzzling that you do. I mean you are asserting that what is posted here is the proof I asserted you have not given right?

Oh sure, when someone shows you the correct context of St. Augistine, you pull the "but he's not infallible" card.

It's a little puzzling that you even appeal to St. Augustine at all - especially if you believe in Sola Scriptura and not Apostolic succession and Sacred Tradition.

Pax Tecum,

John

JCrawf · Jul 20, 2006

calmcoolandelected said:
Read on in Phillipians. Paul goes on to stress it is by God's Will that His people should be saved, by God's righteous gift and not by striving to establish their own.

But of course I agree with that. So regarding the particular Scripture passage noted, would you say there is a contradition, whereing he first says "work out your own salvation"and then says "it is God who is at work in you"? If there is no contradition, then what do you think St Paul means by saying to work out you own salvation, as well as noting that it is God who is at work in a person?

Phil 3:7-8

7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ

Here Paul says that he realizes his confidence in his ability to obey the law was a great sin for it kept him from trusting God and he is disgusted by it.

This I do not see in the passage. Rather, I see St. Paul humbling himself and saying that, though he can do great things in the Lord, they still ammount to nothing compared to the Lord Himself. No matter what he suffers for Christ, the suffering he goes through is nothing compared to what is gained in our Lord. It's the selfless love, the love of agaph/charitas that is being expressed here. As well as emptying oneself before the Lord in order to participate in the divine nature of the Lord. It is a very powerful and ascetic passage. And a great image of what we are to imitate so we to may participate in the life of Christ.

Regeneration is a momentary, one-time act in which God changes the condition of one's heart from spiritual death to eternal life. A dead man cannot do anything...period.

Sorry, don't believe in total depravity, but the wounded nature of humanity due to sin entering the world by way of our first parents. In being regenerated, we do begin to participate in the life of Christ. However, there is still concupisence, which may tempt us toward sin. Thus the reason to maintain our relationship with Christ. For he is indeed the bread of life - the true food and drink that sustains us in the life eternal.

Sanctification is the life-long process in which God renews the whole man into the image of Christ.

Indeed. It is our call to constant conversion.

Pax Tecum,

John

JCrawf · Jul 20, 2006

calmcoolandelected said:
I disagree here. Salvation is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Salvation is essentially the grace given by God due to Christ and his sacrifice. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what is infused in Baptism. He is our comforter, our guide.

John 3:5

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Most certainly. It is not a water v. spirit polarity as some Protestants might contend. Rather, it is both water and Spirit, and not an either...or matter. Both are important, and thus the reasong for the use of water in Baptism, along with the Trinitarian form of being baptized into the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So thus, in the Baptism that water is used, the Holy Spirit is infused at the same time into the believer.

Ps 51:10-12

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.

Wonderful prayer that seeks the grace and mercy of God, as well as the great comforter in the Holy Spirit.

Ezekiel 36:25-27

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Indeed, wonderful passages on Baptism.

Pax Tecum,

John

calmcoolandelected · Jul 20, 2006

JCrawf said:
Salvation is essentially the grace given by God due to Christ and his sacrifice. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what is infused in Baptism. He is our comforter, our guide.

Most certainly. It is not a water v. spirit polarity as some Protestants might contend. Rather, it is both water and Spirit, and not an either...or matter. Both are important, and thus the reasong for the use of water in Baptism, along with the Trinitarian form of being baptized into the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So thus, in the Baptism that water is used, the Holy Spirit is infused at the same time into the believer.

Wonderful prayer that seeks the grace and mercy of God, as well as the great comforter in the Holy Spirit.

Indeed, wonderful passages on Baptism.

Pax Tecum,

John

John,

I still disagree with you on the salvation and baptism stuff. I understand a little better what you believe now that I know you don't believe in Total Depravity.

I do have a few questions though, how is one in your church saved? How is this accomplished? What is Christmation? I had read another poster in another thread recently and he mentioned Christmation but never defined it. I did a Google search but want to make sure I understand.

Is Chrismation something unique to the Orthodox church?

TIA,
CC&E

racer · Jul 20, 2006

JCrawf said:
Oh sure, when someone shows you the correct context of St. Augistine, you pull the "but he's not infallible" card.

You forget, non-RCs/EOs don't believe any person is infallible. I only quote Augustine to show how blatantly false the assertions made by RCs that all of the ECFs were RC and taught and believed as your Church does today. Essentially, I only have to quote one father to tear down that argument and to show "Unanimous Consent" to be non-existant.

JCrawf said:
It's a little puzzling that you even appeal to St. Augustine at all - especially if you believe in Sola Scriptura and not Apostolic succession and Sacred Tradition.

I don't appeal to him to affirm my beliefs, but to disprove your unfounded claims.

God Bless!

Lisa

racer · Jul 20, 2006

lionroar0 said:
But can we gleem that Jesus is 100% God and 100% human from Scriptures? Can this be done with out someone teaching that Jesus is 100% God and 100% human, before hand and then showing scriptures to back this up?

I think we can. Are you implying that the Hypostatic Union is not biblical? That it is solely based on extra-biblical Holy Tradition?

lionroar0 said:
The point is we read the Scriptures and come to the conclusion that Jesus is 100% God and 100% human, because that is part of Tradition that has been taught before we read the Scriptures.

Good grief! Everything in Scripture was taught before it was written or taught!

lionroar0 said:
Thus it is not in Scripture. Scripture does not say that Jesus is 100% man and 100% God.

Not in those exact words. But, we have this from Scripture:

Jhn 1:1; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2; The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:14; And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

lionroar0 said:
No where does Scripture say that Jesus is 100% percent human and 100% God. This is something that is a Tradition that is taught 1st then certain verses are interpreted to mean and prove that Jesus is 100% human and 100%God.

Well, then if you want to make that assertion, you can lump the Eucharist right up there with it. Because, if you can't read what the Bible says in relationship to Jesus humanness and divinity and conclude what is stated above, then you absolutely could not read it and infer for a second that Jesus was telling us to eat His flesh and drink His blood!

I just do not understand Christians that fight so fiercely to discredit the word of God, in order to elevate their Church to a level of which God never intended for it to be.

I just can't understand how such a simple ideology as Sola Scriptura can be so "misunderstood" by seeingly, highly intelligent people.

ETide · Jul 20, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
In order to exemplify how this question doesnt penetrate to the heart of the matter, let me ask the opposite question. Can you be saved by doing nothing? Can you just rest on your laurels?

Mike, the question is simple, yet there are many here who are not willing to answer it.

Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

Knight Errant

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