Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

WarriorAngel · Jul 17, 2006

These are still the times of the Gentiles.. and Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled..

So imo, the RCC doesn't even know what times it is.. but they claim to be the church of God nonetheless..

Matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone.

WarriorAngel · Jul 17, 2006

Funny, I never had that problem. I believe the Bible is authoritative in and of itself and it doesn't need the approval of the Catholic church.

If Marilyn Manson put together the canon of scripture..or rather approved which texts would be in the Bible....would you believe Him.......yet you truly hold to what the Church proclaimed as New Testament.

WarriorAngel · Jul 17, 2006

Trento said:
Here is a denomination that trusts scripture. Do you believe what they do.

Christadelphianism

They believe the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of God. (The Christadelphians: What They Believe and Preach, p. 82)

2 They teach that Jesus had a sin nature (What They Believe, p. 74)

3 They teach that Jesus needed to save himself, before he could save us. (Christadelphian Answers, p. 24)

4 They teach that Jesus will return and set up his kingdom on earth. (What They Believe , p. 268)

5 They deny the doctrine of the Trinity. (What They Believe, p. 84-87)

6 They deny immortality of the soul. (What They Believe , p. 17).

7 They deny that Jesus is God in flesh. (Answers, p. 22)

8 They deny that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation. (What They Believe , p. 85,86)

9 They deny the existence of hell and eternal punishment. (What They Believe, p. 188-189

So how can scripture be all that scripture says it is by itself?

It cannot without an authority that KNOWS what it all means by Traditional understanding. OR rather what has been handed down BY the Apostles..

WarriorAngel · Jul 17, 2006

Augustine Believed in Authoritative Tradition
But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary ecumenical councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church" (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400]).

GO Augustine!!!

Whom BTW believed fully in both Tradition and scripture....as do all of Catholics, yet Catholics and ancient Chruches know that scripture is as equal and as important as Tradition, and cannot have one without the other.

Asinner · Jul 17, 2006

racer said:
We posted at the same time . . . .

I believe that Triple immersion falls under the realm of (t)radition. It is representative of being reborn in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and the three days of Jesus being in the tomb as you pointed out.

Do you assert that "triple dipping" is necessary to salvation, that if one is not dipped three times, the baptism is void?

It is not a tradition; but a Tradition, a teaching from Christ, practiced from the beginnings of Christianity. We see in the scriptures that we are to be buried with Christ in baptism. What is not clear is the method.

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus
have been baptized into his death,
so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
we too might walk in newness of life"
(Rom 6:3-4)

St. Justin the Martyr (born at the end of the first century), makes reference to the triple immersion:

I shall now explain our method of dedicating ourselves to God after we have been created anew through Christ... . All who accept and believe as true the things taught and said by us, and who undertake to have the power to live accordingly, are taught to pray and entreat God, fasting, for the forgiveness of their former sins, while we join in their prayer and fasting. Then we bring them to a place where there is water, where they are regenerated in the same way as we were: for they then make their ablution in the water in the Name of God the Father and Lord of all, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit.

Augustine:

"Rightly were you dipped three times, since you were baptized in the name of the Trinity. Rightly were you dipped three times, because you were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, Who on the third day rose again from the dead. For that thrice repeated immersion reproduces the burial of the Lord by which you were buried with Christ in Baptism."

St. Cyril:

"Thus, with the help of these signs you have represented the three-day burial of Christ because, as our Saviour was in the heart of the earth three days and three nights, so in the first coming up from the water you symbolized the first day of His sojourn under the earth, and through your immersion, you symbolized the night. For, as one who walks in the night sees nothing, and he who walks during the day does so in light, so you, having immersed yourself in water saw nothing, as if you saw nothing in the night, and having come forth from the water, you see everything as in daylight. You were both dead and then born. So the salvific water was for you both a coffin and a mother. Although we neither actually die, nor get buried, nor are we nailed to the cross, but only simulate this symbolically, we, however, do indeed achieve salvation. Christ was truly crucified, truly buried, and truly resurrected. He granted all this to us, so that we, in imitating His passions, would become partakers of them and indeed would achieve salvation.

St. Basil:

To signify this death and to enlighten the baptized by transmitting to them knowledge of God, the great sacrament of baptism is administered by means of a triple immersion and the invocation of each of the three divine Persons. Whatever grace there is in the water comes not from its own nature but from the presence of the Spirit, since baptism is not a cleansing of the body, but a pledge made to God from a clear conscience

God Bless

IgnatiusOfAntioch · Jul 17, 2006

Trento said:
This is an absolutely wrong conclusion as this Orthodox Jewish site proves.

The Yahrzeit Organization -
PastQuestions and Answers

Click on Is this what Catholics do and you will find this.

Q) I was reading about the Kaddish and in it you state: "The Rabbis teach us that Kaddish is a source of merit for the soul. Also, when you give charity in the name of a deceased, it can abolish evil decrees." My question: Is this like what the Catholics do in their belief of purgatory? When you say "charity... [abolishing] evil decrees," is this comparable to the Catholic doctrine of indulgences? Are these prayers for purification of the dead, or are they used to provide a greater experience of peace and happiness for the dead? Also, when did the Kaddish come into being? Is it Scriptural (Torah or otherwise) or is it a tradition? Please let me know. I am really interested in so many things on your website

A) If a soul is in purgatory, the recitation of kaddish or the act of charity can help to get that soul out. The way this works is that the reward for the act of sanctifying G-d's name through reciting the kaddish or doing an act of kindness is transferred to the soul in purgatory by the person who does the mitzva by thinking, before the act, "I'm doing this act of charity or reciting this kaddish in the merit of ________." The kaddish is not Scriptural, it is Rabbinic. It was composed in Mishnaic times circa 100 B.C.E.
The Jewish religion came before catholic and therefore the custom of kaddish and that of charity was from the Jewish religion.

Outstanding Post. The early Church received the praxes from the Hebrews.

lionroar0 · Jul 17, 2006

calmcoolandelected said:
Was it that Scripture wasn't cannonized as we know it today? Certainly, there were writings that were considered to be Scripture from the get-go. So to say that there wasn't a Bible isn't exactly accurate.

CC&E

That's correct but in reading the ECF's they also quote uncanonical writtings as Scripture.

Peace

lionroar0 · Jul 17, 2006

This is a vent.

I really hated when I reply to someone and then find out I got kicked of the internet. Speciallt after a long responce. ARGHH!!

Peace

Lynn73 · Jul 18, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
If Marilyn Manson put together the canon of scripture..or rather approved which texts would be in the Bible....would you believe Him.......yet you truly hold to what the Church proclaimed as New Testament.

Sorry, your view and my view of the church are quite at odds with one another. God used ordinary Christians to recognize what was Scripture and what was not, not Roman Catholics. I don't share your belief that the RCC or CC decided what was to go in the Bible. His word isn't dependent upon your church or it's proclamations. I accept it as God's word outside of any authority that your RCC claims to have over it.

andybmi · Jul 18, 2006

Cons
Isaiah 29 vs 13.
Mt 15 vs 1 - 6 also in Mark 7
Col 2 vs 8

Pros
2 Th 3 vs 6
1 Cor 11 vs 2

On the one hand the Bible seems to be very much against traditions.
But at the same time for.

We are told to keep our good traditions.
But does a Tradition hold the same weight as scripture. No, unless it is in Scripture i.e : Communion, its a tradition we were told to observe by Jesus. But of course it is so much more. Tradition alone is empty and meaningless. Least we end up like Isreal ins Isaiah 29, or the Lord hating our new moon feasts and our sabaths. He desires more than empty ceremony and tradition. So Tradition alone is empty and dead.
Least we end up following the precepts of men rather than God.
I dont think its as complex as we make it!

racer · Jul 18, 2006

Trento said:

AUGUSTINE on BAPTISM AS REGENERATIVE

Click to expand...

Trento said:
If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to thisThe Sacrament of Baptism is most assuredly the Sacrament of regeneration. But just as the man who never lived cannot die, and one who has not died cannot rise again, so too one who was never born cannot be reborn..Unless we voluntarily depart from the rule of the Christian faith it must be admitted that inasmuch as infants are, by the Sacrament of Baptism, conformed to the death of Christ, they are also freed from the serpents venomous bite. This bite, however, they did not receive in their own proper life, but in him who first suffered that wound.

(Augustine, Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of sins, and the Baptism of Infants, AD 412)
[A.D. 400]).

I know what Augustine taught regarding Baptism. However, the thread is not about the necessity of Baptism, per se. Asinner and I are discussing whether or not Baptism and how it is done is Scriptural

Want to talk about how Augustines teaching on Baptism relates to the baptism of desire or how it would relate to those of the Muslim faith?

Trento said:
Augustine Believed in Authoritative Tradition
But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary ecumenical councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church" (Letter to Januarius
400]).

How does this compare or negate this statement:

"For who would dare to say that Christ is not the Savior and Redeemer of infants? But from what does He save them, if there is no malady of original sin within them? From what does He redeem them, if through their origin from the first man they are not sold under sin? Let there be no eternal salvation promised to infants out of our own opinion, without Chris's baptism: for none is promised in that Holy Scripture which is to be preferred to all human authority and opinion." (St. Augustine, "A Treatise on the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins and on the Baptism of Infants, p. 171).

Or to this:

CHAP. 18.--ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS PERFECT TRUTH ESTABLISHED ON THE HARMONY OF BOTH TESTAMENTS.
33. . . . . Do not be angry. I too barked and was a dog; and then, as was right, instead of the food of teaching, I got the rod of correction. . . . . "For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant unto you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man: that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the height, and length, and breadth, and depth, and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled with all the fullness of God?" Could anything be more plainly expressed?

34. Wake up a little, I beseech you, and see the harmony of both Testaments, making it quite plain and certain what should be the manner of life in our conduct, and to what all things should be referred. To the love of God we are incited by the gospel, when it is said, "Ask, seek, knock;" by Paul, when he says, "That ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend;" by the prophet also, when he says that wisdom can easily be known by those who love it, seek for it, desire it, watch for it, think about it, care for it. The salvation of the mind and the way of happiness is pointed out by the concord of both Scriptures; and yet you choose rather to bark at these things than to obey them. I will tell you in one word what I think. Do you listen to the learned men of the Catholic Church with as peaceable a disposition, and with the same zeal, that I had when for nine years I attended on you: there will be no need of so long a time as that during which you made a fool of me. In a much, a very much, shorter time you will see the difference between truth and vanity.

Trento said:

AUGUSTINE ON APOSTOLIC TRADITION

Click to expand...

Trento said:
"Those which we keep, not as being written, but as from, if observed by the whole of Christendom, are thereby understood to be committed to us by the apostles themselves or plenary Councils, and to be retained as instituted." (Ep 118).

And? He is speaking about (t)radtions.

Trento said:
AUGUSTINE: CATHOLIC CHURCH IS AN AUTHORITATIVE CHURCH

Trento said:
The Catholic Church is the work of Divine Providence, achieved through the prophecies of the prophets, through the Incarnation and the teaching of Christ, through the journeys of the Apostles, through the suffering, the crosses, the blood and death of the martyrs, through the admirable lives of the saints. When, then, we see so much help on Gods part, so much progress and so much fruit, shall we hesitate to bury ourselves in the bosom of that Church? For starting from the apostolic chair down through successions of bishops, even unto the open confession of all mankind, it has possessed the CROWN OF TEACHING AUTHORITY. (emphasis mine) (Augustine, The Advantage of Believing 35392 A.D.)

Like I said before many times, nobody denies the teaching authority of the church. How much more clear can Augustine be?

Trento said:

AUGUSTINE ON AUTHORITY OF CATHOLIC CHURCH

I would not believe the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not compel me.

Click to expand...

I dont think anyone would deny that Scripture would be slightly less credible if it was not supported and affirmed by history.

racer · Jul 18, 2006

Augustines Confessions, Book XIII

Chapter XV.Allegorical Explanation of the Firmament and Upper Works, Ver. 6.

16. Or who but Thou, our God, made for us that firmament1 of authority over us in Thy divine Scripture?2 As it is said, For heaven shall be folded up like a scroll;3 and now it is extended over us like a skin.4 For Thy divine Scripture is of more sublime authority, since those mortals through whom Thou didst dispense it unto us underwent mortality. And Thou knowest, O Lord, Thou knowest, how Thou with skins didst clothe men5 when by sin they became mortal. Whence as a skin hast Thou stretched out the firmament of Thy Book;6 that is to say, Thy harmonious words, which by the ministry of mortals Thou hast spread over us. For by their very death is that solid firmament of authority in Thy discourses set forth by them more sublimely extended above all things that are under it, the which, while they were living here, was not so eminently extended.7 Thou hadst not as yet spread abroad the heaven like a skin; Thou hadst not as yet noised everywhere the report of their deaths.
17. Let us look, O Lord, upon the heavens, the work of Thy fingers;8 clear from our eyes that mist with which Thou hast covered them. There is that testimony of Thine which giveth wisdom unto the little ones.9 Perfect, O my God, Thy praise out of the mouth of babes and sucklings.10 Nor have we known any other books so destructive to pride, so destructive to the enemy and the defender,11 who resisteth Thy reconciliation in defence of his own sins.12 I know not, O Lord, I know not other such pure13 words which so persuade me to confession, and make my neck submissive to Thy yoke, and invite me to serve Thee for nought. Let me understand these things, good Father. Grant this to me, placed under them; because Thou hast established these things for those placed under them.

18. . . . For Thy mercy, O Lord, is in the heavens, and Thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.17 The clouds pass away, but the heaven remaineth. The preachers of Thy Word pass away from this life into another; but Thy Scripture is spread abroad over the people, even to the end of the world. Yea, both heaven and earth shall pass away, but Thy Words shall not pass away.18 . . . .

racer · Jul 18, 2006

Asinner said:
It is not a tradition; but a Tradition, a teaching from Christ, practiced from the beginnings of Christianity. We see in the scriptures that we are to be buried with Christ in baptism. What is not clear is the method.

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus
have been baptized into his death,
so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
we too might walk in newness of life"
(Rom 6:3-4)

St. Justin the Martyr (born at the end of the first century), makes reference to the triple immersion:

I shall now explain our method of dedicating ourselves to God after we have been created anew through Christ... . All who accept and believe as true the things taught and said by us, and who undertake to have the power to live accordingly, are taught to pray and entreat God, fasting, for the forgiveness of their former sins, while we join in their prayer and fasting. Then we bring them to a place where there is water, where they are regenerated in the same way as we were: for they then make their ablution in the water in the Name of God the Father and Lord of all, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit.

Augustine:

"Rightly were you dipped three times, since you were baptized in the name of the Trinity. Rightly were you dipped three times, because you were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, Who on the third day rose again from the dead. For that thrice repeated immersion reproduces the burial of the Lord by which you were buried with Christ in Baptism."

St. Cyril:

"Thus, with the help of these signs you have represented the three-day burial of Christ because, as our Saviour was in the heart of the earth three days and three nights, so in the first coming up from the water you symbolized the first day of His sojourn under the earth, and through your immersion, you symbolized the night. For, as one who walks in the night sees nothing, and he who walks during the day does so in light, so you, having immersed yourself in water saw nothing, as if you saw nothing in the night, and having come forth from the water, you see everything as in daylight. You were both dead and then born. So the salvific water was for you both a coffin and a mother. Although we neither actually die, nor get buried, nor are we nailed to the cross, but only simulate this symbolically, we, however, do indeed achieve salvation. Christ was truly crucified, truly buried, and truly resurrected. He granted all this to us, so that we, in imitating His passions, would become partakers of them and indeed would achieve salvation.

St. Basil:

To signify this death and to enlighten the baptized by transmitting to them knowledge of God, the great sacrament of baptism is administered by means of a triple immersion and the invocation of each of the three divine Persons. Whatever grace there is in the water comes not from its own nature but from the presence of the Spirit, since baptism is not a cleansing of the body, but a pledge made to God from a clear conscience

God Bless

These writings have exhibited that "triple immersion" was representative like we stated. Do you infer that they are saying that baptism is not valid if you are not dipped three times?

racer · Jul 18, 2006

Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, Book II

Chapter 5.Scripture Translated into Various Languages.

6. And hence it happened that even Holy Scripture, which brings a remedy for the terrible diseases of the human will, being at first set forth in one language, by means of which it could at the fit season be disseminated through the whole world, was interpreted into various tongues, and spread far and wide, and thus became known to the nations for their salvation. And in reading it, men seek nothing more than to find out the thought and will of those by whom it was written, and 537 through these to find out the will of God, in accordance with which they believe these men to have spoken.

Chapter 9.How We Should Proceed in Studying Scripture.

14. In all these books those who fear God and are of a meek and pious disposition seek the will of God. And in pursuing this search the first rule to be observed is, as I said, to know these books, if not yet with the understanding, still to read them so as to commit them to memory, or at least so as not to remain wholly ignorant of them. Next, those matters that are plainly laid down in them, whether rules of life or rules of faith, are to be searched into more carefully and more diligently; and the more of these a man discovers, the more capacious does his understanding become. For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life,to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book. After this, when we have made ourselves to a certain extent familiar with the language of Scripture, we may proceed to open up and investigate the obscure passages, and in doing so draw examples from the plainer expressions to throw light upon the more obscure, and use the evidence of passages about which there is no doubt to remove all hesitation in regard to the doubtful passages. And in this matter memory counts for a great deal; but if the memory be defective, no rules can supply the want.

Asinner · Jul 18, 2006

racer said:
These writings have exhibited that "triple immersion" was representative like we stated. Do you infer that they are saying that baptism is not valid if you are not dipped three times?

God is our judge.

God Bless

Asinner · Jul 18, 2006

Another aspect of baptism that is alluded to in the scriptures is infant baptism:

Acts 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Acts 16:15And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

1 Cor 1:16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

The scriptures are not specific; yet they are also not vague.

God Bless

WarriorAngel · Jul 18, 2006

Lynn73 said:
Sorry, your view and my view of the church are quite at odds with one another. God used ordinary Christians to recognize what was Scripture and what was not, not Roman Catholics. I don't share your belief that the RCC or CC decided what was to go in the Bible. His word isn't dependent upon your church or it's proclamations. I accept it as God's word outside of any authority that your RCC claims to have over it.

racer said:
Like I said before many times, nobody denies the teaching authority of the church. How much more clear can Augustine be?

DO you two agree.....I am just wondering.

WarriorAngel · Jul 18, 2006

racer said:
Augustines Confessions, Book XIII

Chapter XV.Allegorical Explanation of the Firmament and Upper Works, Ver. 6.

16. Or who but Thou, our God, made for us that firmament1 of authority over us in Thy divine Scripture?2 As it is said, For heaven shall be folded up like a scroll;3 and now it is extended over us like a skin.4 For Thy divine Scripture is of more sublime authority, since those mortals through whom Thou didst dispense it unto us underwent mortality. And Thou knowest, O Lord, Thou knowest, how Thou with skins didst clothe men5 when by sin they became mortal. Whence as a skin hast Thou stretched out the firmament of Thy Book;6 that is to say, Thy harmonious words, which by the ministry of mortals Thou hast spread over us. For by their very death is that solid firmament of authority in Thy discourses set forth by them more sublimely extended above all things that are under it, the which, while they were living here, was not so eminently extended.7 Thou hadst not as yet spread abroad the heaven like a skin; Thou hadst not as yet noised everywhere the report of their deaths.
17. Let us look, O Lord, upon the heavens, the work of Thy fingers;8 clear from our eyes that mist with which Thou hast covered them. There is that testimony of Thine which giveth wisdom unto the little ones.9 Perfect, O my God, Thy praise out of the mouth of babes and sucklings.10 Nor have we known any other books so destructive to pride, so destructive to the enemy and the defender,11 who resisteth Thy reconciliation in defence of his own sins.12 I know not, O Lord, I know not other such pure13 words which so persuade me to confession, and make my neck submissive to Thy yoke, and invite me to serve Thee for nought. Let me understand these things, good Father. Grant this to me, placed under them; because Thou hast established these things for those placed under them.

18. . . . For Thy mercy, O Lord, is in the heavens, and Thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.17 The clouds pass away, but the heaven remaineth. The preachers of Thy Word pass away from this life into another; but Thy Scripture is spread abroad over the people, even to the end of the world. Yea, both heaven and earth shall pass away, but Thy Words shall not pass away.18 . . . .

Here are two aspects you are ignoring as I stated above..........
Catholics have never denied the importance of scripture, but neither does Augustine deny the importance of Tradition either.

And another aspect is the fact Augustine was arguing against 'a certain person, heresy, object'.....and the crux of it is we understand the situation ascertained in this particular instance why he was only relying on his defense of scripture YET this still will NOT void what he says about Tradition.

It depends alot on the context of WHY he was writing.

ETide · Jul 18, 2006

Asinner said:
Another aspect of baptism that is alluded to in the scriptures is infant baptism:

Acts 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Acts 16:15And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

1 Cor 1:16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

The scriptures are not specific; yet they are also not vague.

God Bless

This is why it's important to build doctrine based upon the whole counsel of scripture, rather than on select verses.. or by things alluded to in scripture.

If we look at the many instances concerning water baptism in the scriptures.. we find that it is for those who believe already, and who are conscious of the decision which they are making.. we have zero instances of water baptism taking place with an infant, or with a person who is not understanding the basis of the baptism.. they didn't need to understand it fully, although its connection with the Lord Jesus Christ was certainly understood.

So while it could certainly be alluded to in the scriptures, it would be a daring stretch to build a doctrine upon these things.

Just my .02

ETide · Jul 18, 2006

In 1 Cor 10 it does speak of all our fathers being under the cloud and passing through the sea, and that they were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.. although this speaks of fathers (ie, not children), and that they were baptized unto Moses.. ie, not our Lord Jesus Christ..

It's an interesting parallel imo.. although still not something which I would build doctrine upon..

Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

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