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Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

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WarriorAngel

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Did you know that there were 7 places where the Church was established?
Did you know John mentioned them also in Revelation?
Did you know Ignatius [aprox 70 AD] casually coined the name 'Catholic' in his writings....which is to say this was a name already in use at the time....since he was not making a new name as he was on his way to his death?
Did you know each Apostle built up a Church in the previously mentioned areas and ordained men to replace them?

Did you know many early writers agree with one another AND THE SAME CHURCH TODAY ALSO BELIEVES THE SAME?

Did you know Catholic means 'Universal'?

Do you know the history of the CHURCH?

Show me one point where it was non existent. Or where the ordinations of the Apostolic line ended.
 
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2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

God's word is inspired (God-breathed), distinguishing it from all other words. The Scriptures are infallible and true, sufficient, contain everything that is necessary to know for salvation and eternal life. They are clear so that a person without special preparation may understand what God requires.

CC&E
 
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I guess my next question is what does all of that have to do with salvation and eternal life?

CC&E
 
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Asinner

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calmcoolandelected said:
They are clear so that a person without special preparation may understand what God requires.

This is not true. Scripture is a deep well. Let's take baptism. How is baptism administered? One dunk or three? Is it spiritual only (no water)? Is it for an entrance into His Church only? Is it regenerative? Is it merely an outward sign? What about infant baptism? Believers baptism? Ect, ect, ect. . .?

The scripture you claim is so easily understood tells me there is "one baptism". Which one is it?l

God Bless
 
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WarriorAngel

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Asinner again.
 
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racer

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WarriorAngel said:
2 Peter 3:16
WarriorAngel said:

16 As also in
all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they doalso the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
Who is unstable and unlearned?
WarriorAngel said:
What did I say?? I believe I said he was writing his Epistles....and it was NOT scripture during his lifetime.
Really? On what do you base this assertion? WA, do you or do you not believe that the books contained in the Bible, OT and NT, were written under the guidance and inspiration of God? If you do, let me make a comparison that maybe you, as a Catholic, can understand. I’m assuming you understand you Church’s doctrine of the Sacrifice of the Mass. That when people present you with the argument that when Christ was crucified it was final and is/has been finished, you in turn would explain that because God exists outside the realm of time to which we are subject? Right? Well, don’t you understand that when God, being God, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent—outside the realm of time, inspired Paul to write that all Scripture, ALL SCRIPTURE, not just the OT was God breathed and given by inspiration of Him, He knew was referring to ALL Scripture—all that had been written and all that would be written? Therefore, it was indeed Scripture during Pauls lifetime.

But, I didn’t really need to explain all that to you when the verse you quoted above shows that Peter considered Paul’s epistles to be Scripture. We know this because he said that Paul’s epistles were subject to be “wrested” as were the OTHER Scriptures. If he did not consider what Paul wrote to be scripture, he would have said, “ . . . as they do the Scriptures.”
WarriorAngel said:
AND indeed it was not....and I could say
WarriorAngel said:
ALSO you will not understand MY writing either, just like you do not understand OTHER writings or scripture.
Well, if Paul’s epistles were considered Scripture, we can surely ascertain that so were Peter’s, especially if Peter was the Pope.

WarriorAngel said:
IT was not scripture.....
WarriorAngel said:
scripture was the OT, and this verse says exactly what I said.
Sorry, but as I have shown you, you are wrong.

WarriorAngel said:
AND as I previously stated.....we are to NOT interpret it for ourselves.
Do you really believe that we are not supposed to personally discern what is expected of us by God? If not, how could we be held personally accountable for our sins?

WarriorAngel said:
WE are supposed to seek the authority.
We are suppose to seek God—He is the authority.

WarriorAngel said:
AND thanks for HELPING proove my point.
No. Thank you, for proving ours.
 
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Asinner

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What does scripture say about 'self'

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me Matt 16:24


It is not about self, it is about Christ. Can you figure it all out by yourself? No one individual contains the entirety of truth, except Christ. Christ is the Church. The Church is Christ.


God Bless
 
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ETide

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Did you come up with that yourself Asinner, or did you copy and paste it from the OC..?
 
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WarriorAngel

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calmcoolandelected said:
I guess my next question is what does all of that have to do with salvation and eternal life?

CC&E

Why did Christ establish an authority, and a Church built upon Peter if He didnt mean for us to KNOW what He was giving us??

The Pharisees missed the mark because they were not looking for Christ, and what the prophets said, but what they wanted it to mean.

Why did He ordain the Apostles if He didnt intend for them to be the ones with the Holy Spirit?
Why did He make promises if He didn't intend to keep them?

What does it mean? It means God Who is wiser and greater knew that if He sent down men to preach without establishing an authority for truth, that the truth would be lost and we would become like the Pharisees and choose what we want to believe rather than know what is truth.

God is organized and so is what He wanted built....a Church, not any Church, but one that would be here for all time.
 
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WarriorAngel

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I will say it again --

The Bible clearly teaches everything we need to know about salvation and eternal life. So clear is it that those of primitive mind may understand it. Yes, there are some things that are more profound that scholars spend a lifetime studying, but God has given all we need to know about salvation and eternal life in plain words.

I'm not so sure that the mode of baptism will determine if someone is saved or not. The Bible teaches that to be saved one must believe in Jesus. Is it possible that one could be saved and never baptised?

CC&E
 
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ETide

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WarriorAngel said:
Guessing what I think everything means would be destruction to my soul...and it almost once was.


Who said anything about guessing..? It started with you quoting 2 Peter 1:20 and now you're talking as if your church is the church.. scripture easily refutes that if you'd simply study it out for yourself.. but again.. you're not willing to do that.. so you must accept what other people (who are no different than yourself) have to say.


I am not an island unto myself and I was not around in 33 AD....so I let the Spirit lead me to the authority.
Submission is NOT a dirty word....thinking for ourselves is not an attractive pursuit.


Me neither, I got saved in 1985 after reading the gospel for myself.. I understood the enormous and yet simple message that God's Son gave Himself for me.. and that by trusting in Him I could be forgiven..

I didn't need the catholic chruch to tell me that.. I was raised in it.. and they never once told me that I needed a Saviour.

IF I die and was taught wrong, the Lord will judge on what I knew.
If I teach myself, then I am accountable to myself.


You're willing to listen to others, but not the word of God.. that's your choice..

Like I said b4...the fact Christ shall not allow evil to prevail... then how could she ever be in error?

You're simply showing that you do not understand the scriptural meaning of the church of God..
 
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WarriorAngel

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inspired Paul to write that all Scripture, ALL SCRIPTURE, not just the OT

Paul's writings were not called scripture in his day.

AND 'the other scripture'.... MEANS JUST THAT....OTHER WRITINGS THAT THE PPL WERE TRYING TO INTERPRET FOR THEMSELVES AND IF THEY STOOD BY THEIR own INTERPRETATIONS THEY MISSED HOW THE PROPHETS SPOKE ABOUT CHRIST.

fURTHERMORE, A COMPARISON DOESNT MEAN PETER SAID THAT PAUL WROTE SCRIPTURE, BUT JUST LIKE SCRIPTURE, PPL NEEDED HELP UNDERSTANDING PAUL SO AS NOT TO COME TO DESTRUCTION TRYING TO FORGE THEIR OWN OPINIONS.

again...THE New Testament DIDNT EXIST AND NONE OF THEM called their writings scripture. BUT rather EPISTLES.

Or did you overlook that part??


*Caps locked sorry.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Is it possible that one could be saved and never baptised?

The Bible says NO!

BUT did you know there are other ways to be baptized???

Tradition says baptism by desire, and by blood is also an acceptable way to be baptized.

To die b4 you actually are baptized but you were pursuing the sacrament, means you desired it...so thus by desire you are baptized b4 your death because you wanted it very much.

By blood means to not be given the sacrament but to be martyred b4 you could, and thus the blood for Christ is a baptism.

[Blood baptism is in scripture BTW.....but it doesnt state baptism]
BUT does someone without the ancient knowledge know this?

Not hardly..it was taught, but the writers didnt mention it, just taught it.

Thus we can be saved in certain situations.

Well, can you be saved if you only have scripture to let you know?
If you only believe in scripture, and never got baptized and someone killed you for wanting to be baptized a Christian...are you saved??
 
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racer

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Asinner said:
Those who wrote the writings in the NT understood the interpretation. Did they keep this a secret? Or did they also teach orally?

No. If they were going to keep it secret, I'm sure they would not have written it down and distributed it among the masses. They taught orally and in writing.


It didn't stop, because they preserved it by writing it down. Yes, it probably would have continued on in some fashion if it had never been written down, but the imaginable distortions that would have arisen are too scary to think about.

Asinner said:
What about Ignatius and Polycarp, who were disciples of John? Did they not receive the teachings of Christ?

Yes, as well as all of Christianity does to this day.

Asinner said:
It is these "teachings" that God has preserved. Is it so ludicrus to conceive that we still have these same teachings today?

Um . . . no, and we know this because we have the Bible. This is the manner in which God decided to preserve the teachings to ensure there passage along to us.

Asinner said:
Must one comprehend it intellectually for it to be true (the Eucharist for example).

Uh . . no. Must we hear it from the lips of a minister or priest for it to be true?

The only requirement to be true, is that it is Biblical, Gospel from the lips of Christ down through the ages.

Asinner said:
Most of the teachings left by Christ, IMO, are CRAZY teachings (the resurrection). Who can fathom these things (the Incarnation, the Trinity, the Church)?

If we can, as intellectual, thinking, rationalizing, questioning, curious human beings, accept God on the basis of faith alone, with no concrete, physical evidence, then what is taught in Scripture is fathomable to us. It is only those who can not accept the existance of God by faith or do not see that the reasoning of "intelligent design creation" is far more logical than believing that we evolved from some explosion which occurred millions or billions of years ago, who find what Scripture teaches as unfathomable.

Asinner said:
Private interpretation today is based on REASON.

I disagree. Christians are spiritual people. Those who deny Christ are the ones who make decisions based upon "reason" alone.

To insist that we can only trust what an institution teaches us about God and salvation, that we can not trust personal discernment or interpretation is what it means to base ones belief on REASON.

To trust that I can be touched and guided by the Holy Spirit directly, while still understanding that instruction and correction are necessary because I am a fallible person, is employing REASON and FAITH when acknowledging my beliefs.

Asinner said:
Most cannot reason it within themselves that the Eucharist is Christ's Flesh and Blood.

It is not simply that they can not "reason" that the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Christ. Because, believing in Christ, God and the Trinity, we believe in the power of God to make anything happen. If Scripture revealed that Christ taught the Real Presence, we would certainly accept it. Scripture does not reveal this.

Asinner said:
Christianity is not about what we can believe but about what is impossible to believe - FAITH.

Christianity is about what's impossible to believe? I don't think so. Our mere existance makes anything possible to believe.

There is no logical reasoning for our existence. All that science can do with its big bang theory is give possible explanation as to what may have happened--in a big black void something (which was nothing) blew up, and the result of the ever expanding debri is the Universe and all its glory.

To me God and creation makes much more sense.

Asinner said:
Faith in the teachings of Christ, but more importantly, faith in the Church that It is the very manifestation of these teachings.

You consider "faith in the Church" more important than the faith in the teachings of Christ? You don't see a problem with that?

Asinner said:
Our reason limits what the Church really is - the Kingdom of God which encompasses the fullness of truth.

You can not speak as to what "our" reason limits us to, only your own. Those in opposition to your beliefs can accept that it is possible that the Church encompasses the fullness of truth. We just don't accept your defintion of what that Church is.

Asinner said:
Is the fullness of truth in me alone?

Probably not. But, it is possible that you could. With God all things are possible. He would not have repeated that statement without qualification if He did not mean it.

Asinner said:
NO! Is it in you or any individual? NO!

You can not state this as a fact. You can only assert this as your belief or opinion.

Asinner said:
It is in the Church as a WHOLE.

You can not state this as fact either. You can only state it as your belief and as the belief of your church.

Asinner said:
This is why private interpretation is not possible.

That is why you believe private interpretation is not possible.

Asinner said:
*Asinner awaits the ambush*

Wasn't that bad was it?

Asinner said:
Is this found within your intellect, Racer? You can only trust yourself?

That's not what I said.

Asinner said:
Yes. The Kingdom of God is within. Our hearts must by purified before our intellect can begin to comprehend.

I disagree again. Our hearts must be touched to begin to comprehend. How could our hearts be purified without comprehension?

Asinner said:
When we begin with intellect, we begin backwards, and we interpret God's Word with our passions.

Maybe, when we depend upon intellect alone, we are placing stumbling blocks, or blockades all together, in our own paths.

God bless!
 
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Asinner

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Yet there are disagreements even among the basics.

I'm not so sure that the mode of baptism will determine if someone is saved or not. The Bible teaches that to be saved one must believe in Jesus. Is it possible that one could be saved and never baptised?

My salvation is no game.

1 Peter 3:21 baptism doth also now save us

Can we only guess and hope that the way we believe is true? Perhaps baptism saves, perhaps not . . . Perhaps a Trinitarian baptism is essential, perhaps not . . . Perhaps it is only a work, perhaps not . . .

Christ left you His Church. What teachings did Christ leave His Apostles concerning baptism?


God Bless
 
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Lynn73

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How do you know it means water baptism? Water baptism cannot save for I was batpized at 12 and saved at about 20. If water baptism could actually save we should be rounding up as many as possible and throwing them in the water. This flies in the face of the many Scriptures that say believing on Christ saves with no mention of baptism. Belief is required for salvation and you can be water baptized without true belief. I'm living proof of that and please don't say some nonsense that I was saved but just didn't know it. I ought to know, I was there and water baptism did NOT save me.
 
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GenemZ

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WarriorAngel said:
Paul's writings were not called scripture in his day.

Go argue with Peter. Not, me. I am not going to argue a point that is presented in plain language. I see you have no problem arguing against such a thing......

AND 'the other scripture'.... MEANS JUST THAT....OTHER WRITINGS THAT THE PPL WERE TRYING TO INTERPRET FOR THEMSELVES AND IF THEY STOOD BY THEIR own INTERPRETATIONS THEY MISSED HOW THE PROPHETS SPOKE ABOUT CHRIST.

That is what they were doing. It says arrogant and stupid men were doing it. We have had plenty of arrogant and stupid religious leaders over the years, just like they lived in Peter's day. Making up traditions by distoring Scripture, and telling the naive people its from God. Nothing new under the sun.

Peter, included... Jews did not use the term "Scripture" in such light way as you claim. And, it spoke of misinterpretation leading to destruction. Not what happens with reading just a book, etc. Scripture meant, "Bible" to them.

Paul's Epistles which were preserved are Scripture today.

Peter in the Spirit recognized what Paul was writing.

Can't you?


Can't you???????


Why not?





Gone fish'in ...... GeneZ
 
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