Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

WarriorAngel · Jul 13, 2006

Maybe, your instructors are that way in your church. Not, mine! It says all of us will someday judge angels.

Quote

And when it says the Church is the pillar and Bulwark of truth, I dont think he was referring to the PPL being the truth, but the DOCTRINES of the Church.

Where did you get that one from, too? I do not even know where to begin.

You are told things, and you never verify.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (New American Standard Bible)

2 Peter 1
20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

WarriorAngel · Jul 13, 2006

What is truth?

Truth is what is taught.......what is taught?

The adherences to the laws of the Apostles...aka doctrines.

CaliforniaJosiah · Jul 13, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
2 Peter 1
20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
[/indent]

One reason I left the Catholic Church.

But I have all respect and love for those who embrace this principle and the Sola Ecclesia that depends on it. I appreciate the reasons why my FULL UNseparated brothers and sisters participating in congregations of the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic Church follow this. I'm simply more comfortable with an embrace of accountability, humility and public interpretation - thus far more "at home" with Protestantism. Much of my heart, however, embraces both equally. I'm passionately ecumenical.

Pax.

- Josiah

.

stray bullet · Jul 13, 2006

CaliforniaJosiah said:
One reason I left the Catholic Church.

What do you think you are doing? You are interpreting scripture... it is your private interpretation. What you are quoting is entirely applicable to you and not to the Church.

The Catholic Church does not privately interpret scripture. "Interpreting scripture" is a polite way of saying "forming new fallible doctrines using scripture". The Catholic Church does not do this, it does not interpret scripture because it is unnecessary. The Church holds to the same truths and beliefs since the first generation and from the apostles.

The Church does not extrapolate theology from scripture because it holds to the same beliefs before scripture was ever written. Scripture agrees with all the teachings of the Church, because it is from the same source. Just as Peter's epistles agrees with Paul's, or Mark agrees with John.

What the Church believes is by divine revelation. What you believe is by private interpretation.

ETide · Jul 13, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
2 Peter 1
20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
[/indent]

It's sad to see the way in which this verse in God's word is so often mis-represented.. as we've already witnessed in this thread..

It has absolutely nothing to do with individuals interpreting scripture, and speaks rather to the fact that scripture is God breathed..

It simply proves that even some of the simplest biblical principles are completely missed and often mis-applied by those who claim that 'their' church can see..

WarriorAngel · Jul 13, 2006

ETide said:
It's sad to see the way in which this verse in God's word is so often mis-represented.. as we've already witnessed in this thread..

It has absolutely nothing to do with individuals interpreting scripture, and speaks rather to the fact that scripture is God breathed..

It simply proves that even some of the simplest biblical principles are completely missed and often mis-applied by those who claim that 'their' church can see..

And by what authority do you have this information?
Private interpretation??

WarriorAngel · Jul 13, 2006

CaliforniaJosiah said:
One reason I left the Catholic Church.

But I have all respect and love for those who embrace this principle and the Sola Ecclesia that depends on it. I appreciate the reasons why my FULL UNseparated brothers and sisters participating in congregations of the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic Church follow this. I'm simply more comfortable with an embrace of accountability, humility and public interpretation - thus far more "at home" with Protestantism. Much of my heart, however, embraces both equally. I'm passionately ecumenical.

Pax.

- Josiah

.

IF we UNseperated, why do you deny Catholicism??

WarriorAngel · Jul 13, 2006

ETide said:
It's sad to see the way in which this verse in God's word is so often mis-represented.. as we've already witnessed in this thread..

It has absolutely nothing to do with individuals interpreting scripture, and speaks rather to the fact that scripture is God breathed..

It simply proves that even some of the simplest biblical principles are completely missed and often mis-applied by those who claim that 'their' church can see..

NOW let me address this.

Peter was not considering himself as writing scripture, he was referring to the OT scripture....and that no one was to interpret it themselves...hence so many quotes on WHAT SCRIPTURE OF THE OT MEANS.

Peter did not state he was writing scripture, because he was writing an epistle.

Lets not forget that NT scripture was unheard of in his time.

20 "No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation"... This shows plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one's private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.

GenemZ · Jul 14, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
NOW let me address this.

Peter was not considering himself as writing scripture, he was referring to the OT scripture....and that no one was to interpret it themselves...hence so many quotes on WHAT SCRIPTURE OF THE OT MEANS.

Peter did not state he was writing scripture, because he was writing an epistle.

Lets not forget that NT scripture was unheard of in his time.

20 "No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation"... This shows plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one's private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.

Peter declared Paul's letters to be Scripture.

2 Peter 3:16 niv
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

I find it fascinating how Scripture so often times answers questions so directly, in such an indirect manner.

Grace and truth, GeneZ

ETide · Jul 14, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
And by what authority do you have this information?
Private interpretation??

The context in which you originally quoted this verse is basically the same context as the question you propose to me.. ie, is it my private interpretation..?

All one really needs to do is read what Peter is speaking of here to see its immediate context..

Peter is speaking of the more sure word of prophecy which we have in the scriptures, and that we should take heed to them, knowing that they're not the product of man or man's imagination, but rather that they are God breathed..

Remember that Peter, James, and John HEARD THE VOICE of GOD when they were with the LORD on the mountain.. and Peter is telling us that we have something more sure than that.. more sure than hearing GOD'S AUDIBLE VOICE.. and that is within the scriptures.. again, he tells us to take heed..

This was at least the second time in this thread that this verse was used in a context to suggest that we as God's people can not interpret the scriptures.. yet all one needs to do is read it to see that Peter is not speaking of that, but rather that the scriptures are to be heeded, even moreso than an audible voice..because they are God breathed..

In my estimation, this is fairly basic and fundamental.. and yet we hear it used in a completely foreign context by those who tell us that we can not interpret (or understand) the scriptures, and that their church alone can..

ETide · Jul 14, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
NOW let me address this.

Peter was not considering himself as writing scripture, he was referring to the OT scripture....and that no one was to interpret it themselves...hence so many quotes on WHAT SCRIPTURE OF THE OT MEANS.

Peter did not state he was writing scripture, because he was writing an epistle.

Lets not forget that NT scripture was unheard of in his time.

20 "No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation"... This shows plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one's private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.

So are you simply quoting what your church claims ?

Surely these are not your own thoughts.. right?

racer · Jul 14, 2006

Asinner said:
Yes, I can see this also. IMO, I believe that satan has created much confusion and made the narrow way more difficult to find;

Yes, Satan is the author of confusion. However, God's Gospel is pure.

Asinner said:
however, I do believe that all things are possible with God and those that want the truth will find it.

Amen!

WarriorAngel · Jul 14, 2006

2 Peter 3:16
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

What did I say??
I believe I said he was writing his Epistles....and it was NOT scripture during his lifetime. AND indeed it was not....and I could say ALSO you will not understand MY writing either, just like you do not understand OTHER writings or scripture.

IT was not scripture.....scripture was the OT, and this verse says exactly what I said.

AND as I previously stated.....we are to NOT interpret it for ourselves.

WE are supposed to seek the authority.

AND thanks for HELPING proove my point.

racer · Jul 14, 2006

stray bullet said:
What do you think you are doing? You are interpreting scripture... it is your private interpretation. What you are quoting is entirely applicable to you and not to the Church.

We realize and accept that we are exercising "private interpretation" to an extent. It is those of you that are RC and EO who exist under the delusion that just because you belong to those churches you are not interpreting Scripture.

SB, there's no way to avoid private interpretation to varying degrees.

WarriorAngel · Jul 14, 2006

Peter 3:17

17 You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.

AND this prooves also we cannot allow others to mislead us thru the misunderstanding of scriptures.
AND Peter says also what Paul writes.

NOW...if there is ONE line since the Apostles, and their teachings.....and this authority know the scriptures, they know the Apostolic teachings, and someone outside of THOSE teachings were to decide for themselves what scripture means.....right here it tells you NOT to follow them.

CaliforniaJosiah · Jul 14, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
AND this prooves also we cannot allow others to mislead us thru the misunderstanding of scriptures.
AND Peter says also what Paul writes.

I agree...

It applies even more when we are being mislead by a proclimation of dogma that isn't in Scripture than to a misunderstanding of what is in Scripture.

IMO, this is why teachers (individuals, congregations, denominations) should be held accountable.

MY thoughts...

Pax.

- Josiah

Asinner · Jul 14, 2006

racer said:
We realize and accept that we are exercising "private interpretation" to an extent. It is those of you that are RC and EO who exist under the delusion that just because you belong to those churches you are not interpreting Scripture.

SB, there's no way to avoid private interpretation.

Racer,

The difference is that the interpretation of scripture was known prior to it being written by those who wrote it and taught it to their disciples. Then those disciples who received the teachings taught their disciples, ect. ,

Scripture is an abyss and can either lead one to the Church or to their own destruction.

God Bless

CaliforniaJosiah · Jul 14, 2006

WarriorAngel said:
IF we UNseperated, why do you deny Catholicism??

I don't.
Never have.

As I've posted repeatedly, I fully embrace my FULL brothers and sisters in Christ who participate in congregations associated with the _________ denomination, and all other brothers and sisters in Christ. As I've stressed so often, I believe that all Christians are Christians and that together, we are the church - the mystical union of believers - one faith, one Lord, one baptism - the one holy catholic and apostolic church - the Body of Christ. All by the grace of God and the gift of faith. Soli Deo Gloria!

I hope that clarifies my position as a Protestant...

MY view...

Pax.

- Josiah

.

WarriorAngel · Jul 14, 2006

CaliforniaJosiah said:
I don't.
Never have.

As I've posted repeatedly, I fully embrace my FULL brothers and sisters in Christ who participate in congregations associated with the _________ denomination, and all other brothers and sisters in Christ. As I've stressed so often, I believe that all Christians are Christians and that together, we are the church - the mystical union of believers - one faith, one Lord, one baptism - the one holy catholic and apostolic church - the Body of Christ. All by the grace of God and the gift of faith. Soli Deo Gloria!

I hope that clarifies my position as a Protestant...

MY view...

Pax.

- Josiah

.

I am interested in why you adopt some Catholic beliefs.
Such as the Mystical union.

WarriorAngel · Jul 14, 2006

CaliforniaJosiah said:
I agree...

It applies even more when we are being mislead by a proclimation of dogma that isn't in Scripture than to a misunderstanding of what is in Scripture.

IMO, this is why teachers (individuals, congregations, denominations) should be held accountable.

MY thoughts...

Pax.

- Josiah

Jo, let me ask a very logical and I emphasize taken for granted question.

HOW pray tell can anyone have the truth of scripture, in regards to what Paul, Peter, James, and all of them mean if we do not have an authority who TAUGHT them orally?

And I went thru some other threads in here that show it is imperative to have an oral teaching to these things.

Shakespeare was my example of choice.

So, again.......if we are not allowed to have oral teaching..then pray tell, how does one learn WHAT scripture means? Besides private interpretations??

IF no one can be trusted to keep the doctrines and scriptures accurately thru the Spirit, then did God abandon us to our own destruction in private interpretation??

Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

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