Episcopalian?

[jeffkrantz]

Today at 03:21 AM Wasp said this in Post #60

I'm not trying to start an argument, and I apologize if I missed it in the earlier postings, but what is the Episcopalian view of Mary? Do you consider her a deity like Catholics do, or do you simply recognize her as Godly woman who was obedient?

I guess I'd say that most Episcopalians go with your latter description, though I'd probably take out the "simply."  Her obedience to me is exemplary.  She is certainly not divine in any sense, but in many ways she is the perfect model of the follower of Christ, one who is so obedient that Christ can be "born" in him or her.

I'd like to suggest too, that Roman Catholics (you'll notice that I always use "Roman" to designate that particular branch of catholic faith, as I think I'm "catholic" too, just not "Roman Catholic"...)  may in private devotions get the place of Mary confused, she is NOT officially taught to be divine in any sense.  I too am troubled when the God-bearer (Theotokos, not a divine title) starts being called the "Co-Redemptrix," but that's not an official teaching, and in fact it's one the Vatican said a definitive "no" to. 

There are plenty of things to pick on in any denomination, if we want to tear them down (which I'd rather not do) but if you want to criticize, it's a good idea to be sure the criticism's true before you start...

Jeff K.

 

[Caedmon]

Yesterday at 09:21 PM Wasp said this in Post #60 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=688664#post688664)

Do you consider her a deity like Catholics do, or do you simply recognize her as Godly woman who was obedient?

Welcome to the Forums, Wasp. I used to be a Southern Baptist too.

About your post...

Catholics do not consider Mary to be a deity. Mary is not a goddess.

 

[Terri]

1st March 2003 at 03:29 PM Job_38 said this in Post #1

 Is this a legitimate sect of Christianity? I am asking because a good friend of mine is a member of this church.

Job_38

I'm sorry you were attacked for asking a question.

I don't know if some people will ever learn to always assume the best of others.  When I read you question I didn't assume you were trying to be ugly, just that you wanted some information directly from people that knew about the Episcopalian church.

Many people on this board do not realize that it is their assuming the worst of people and then attacking them because of that assumption that makes this board an unkind place.

I don't know anything about that church either--glad I didn't ask.   

 

[jeffkrantz]

Yesterday at 10:59 PM Terri said this in Post #63

Job_38 

When I read you question I didn't assume you were trying to be ugly, just that you wanted some information directly from people that knew about the Episcopalian church.

 

I can surely understand why other people heard Job's question differently.  After all, who better to ask about Episcopalians than Episcopalians, but no, Job didn't do that.  Instead he asked people who don't know much about being an Episcopalian if the Episcopal church was a legitimate one.  "Legitimate?"  Pleeeeeeeeze.

If people read that as being prone to pass judgement, perhaps Job would do well to learn to ask in ways that are respectful of traditions about which he doesn't yet know anything.

JK

 

[Wasp]

Today at 08:04 AM jeffkrantz said this in Post #61

I guess I'd say that most Episcopalians go with your latter description, though I'd probably take out the "simply."  Her obedience to me is exemplary.  She is certainly not divine in any sense, but in many ways she is the perfect model of the follower of Christ, one who is so obedient that Christ can be "born" in him or her.

There are plenty of things to pick on in any denomination, if we want to tear them down (which I'd rather not do) but if you want to criticize, it's a good idea to be sure the criticism's true before you start...

Jeff K.

Hey Jeff,

Thanx for the info.  Sorry for the hasty generalization of Mary's deity, but from the unhealthy amount of attention that Roman Catholics I know give to Mary, it is almost worshipful.  (i.e. prayers, statues, etc.)

You are correct that there are things with each denomination that may seem foreign to others, however, I do not believe that trying to help other believers by pointing out faults in their church is destructive.  I believe that when a church has major faults, the individual should serioulsy consider the effect that it is having on their personal christian walk.  I also believe that the first generation church in the new testament is a good mold to use.

No man (or woman) is a perfect model of the follower of Christ, because all people sin and fall at times.  Therefore the only person we should look to is Christ.  However, if I were looking to another christian for inspiration, I'd have to go with Paul. 

 

[Terri]

Today at 09:22 PM jeffkrantz said this in Post #64

I can surely understand why other people heard Job's question differently.  After all, who better to ask about Episcopalians than Episcopalians, but no, Job didn't do that.  Instead he asked people who don't know much about being an Episcopalian if the Episcopal church was a legitimate one.  "Legitimate?"  Pleeeeeeeeze.

If people read that as being prone to pass judgement, perhaps Job would do well to learn to ask in ways that are respectful of traditions about which he doesn't yet know anything.

JK

And you make my point about assumptions.  Why would you believe that Job did not think that Episcopalians would be answering him?

That people take such offense says more about them than it does about Job!!   

Being easily offended shows a lacking in the love department. 

 1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.






 

 

[Foundthelight]

Hello, my name is Willis Brown. I am new to this forum, this is my first post.

I have been reading this thread with great interest and some amusement. I was raised a Presbyterian, switched to Baptist for a while and am currently attending an Episcopal church.

All denominations have their own "twist" on the Bible and stress what they think is most important. As I have read and re-read the bible I can't say that any are totally right or totally wrong. Many different worship practices have sprung up in the last 2000 years since the coming of our Savior, Jesus of Nazareth. There are as many ways of worshiping Him as there are years since His first coming. We have to let the Holy Spirit guide us in our walk.

To me a Christian church has to exhibit the following:

1. The Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God must be the principal teaching.

2. The congregation must exhibit Christion love toward one another and those outside the church. A congregation full of backbiting and arguments is not walking in the way of the Lord. A congregation which is full of itself and feeling superior rather than humble is not walking in the way of the Lord.

3. The Epistles must be used to teach us how to live a Christian life. We are strengthened and guided by these letters today as the early church was. We ignore them at our peril.

4. The message of the Gospel is not to be held within the congregation but must be spread to those outside the congregation. Evangelize!

5. The priest/minister/pastor must preach that salvation comes through placing your faith in Christ alone, not in what church you attend. For it is only through the Son that we can reach the Father. Teaching that we were all automatically saved by the sacrifice of the Lord is just wrong. His sacrifice gives us the opportunity to be saved without the Law, through Grace.

Beyond that if there is liturgy, fine. If there isn't liturgy, fine. Whatever floats your boat. As far as Mary is concerned, look at the reverence held by Isreal and the Apostles toward Abraham, Moses, and Elija. What is wrong with feeling that same reverence toward the Mother of God? Or for that matter the Apostles?

But, We must be careful not to let new age influences creep in. I once heard the Rector of a church in Detroit prattle on on about how she could feel the trees and rocks cry out because of pollution. Trees and rocks don't have spirits to cry out.

Thanks for letting me prattle on in this fashion.

Yours in Christ

Willis

 

[Job_38]

Thanks for the answer.

However, I do have some questions, but those are for another time.

 

[jeffkrantz]

Yesterday at 04:52 AM Terri said this in Post #66

That people take such offense says more about them than it does about Job!!   

Being easily offended shows a lacking in the love department. 

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I'm sorry if I sounded offended.  I wasn't at all, just trying to explain how others might have been.  Funny how assumptions creep in, isn't it?

Perhaps assumption is more a problem for those who assume it's someone else's problem?

JK

 

[jeffkrantz]

Thanks, Willis, for your cogent list!

Makes perfect sense to me! Certainly seems to be what we strive to do (though, like any group, we fail some) in my (Episcopal) church.

JK

 

[Terri]

Yesterday at 10:09 PM jeffkrantz said this in Post #69

I'm sorry if I sounded offended.  I wasn't at all, just trying to explain how others might have been.  Funny how assumptions creep in, isn't it?

Perhaps assumption is more a problem for those who assume it's someone else's problem?

JK

  You assumed I was talking about you.

I wasn't!!!!!!  




 

 

[Caedmon]

4th March 2003 at 10:52 PM Terri said this in Post #66 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=691306#post691306)

And you make my point about assumptions.  Why would you believe that Job did not think that Episcopalians would be answering him?

That people take such offense says more about them than it does about Job!!

Being easily offended shows a lacking in the love department.

No Terri, we are correcting out of Love

 

[Terri]

Today at 12:21 PM humblejoe said this in Post #72

No Terri, we are correcting out of Love

Well, I'm just correcting you out of Love! 

"Correcting" out of anger is not Love!   

1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 


 

 

[Caedmon]

Today at 02:20 PM Terri said this in Post #73 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=695149#post695149)

Well, I'm just correcting you out of Love! 

"Correcting" out of anger is not Love!   

Who said I was angry in the way you're indicating? Besides, was Jesus angry when he whipped moneychangers and their animals out of the Temple?

1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 

"Love... always trusts..."

You don't trust that I'm correcting out of love, Terri?

 

[Gabriel]

This thread has run it's course and being that the author asked that it be closed about 4 pages ago.