Episcopal - Eternal Hell & Damnation

[astray13]

Hello all! First, let me say that this is all new to me. I was raised Baptist, I believed in God, went to church every Sunday, but looking back i was so young and didn't really understand any of it. Over the last 4-5 years, I've identified myself as agnostic/deist and dismissed the Christian faith, mainly because I couldn't grasp my mind around an all loving God tormenting people for eternity by sending them to a fiery pit because they refused to worship him.

That said, I have been researching Christian denominations over the last couple of days. I suppose I didn't dismiss it entirely. I eventually came upon Anglican/Episcopal and I really identify with this group, assuming I'm not misunderstanding anything

While researching, I came across various websites and forum posts that said Episcopalians don't believe in the traditional literal hell, as in a fiery lake that you'll suffer for ever and ever, but rather view it as "a state of being/separation from God". I then visited the Episcopal church website and found the book of common prayer and on page 862, it says this:

Q. What do we mean by heaven and hell?
A. By heaven, we mean eternal life in our enjoyment of God;
by hell, we mean eternal death in our rejection of God.

So Episcopalians see hell as eternal death rather than a physical fiery pit that tortures nonbelievers/sinners for eternity? Am I understanding this correctly or is something going way over my head? If I am understanding this correctly, I'm seriously considering pursuing faith once more and getting involved in this church.

Any input regarding the Episcopalian view/stance on heaven-hell-afterlife would be greatly appreciated. Cheers!

 

[Zoness]

Posting because I am curious too and I am in the exact same boat you are.

 

[astray13]

Posting because I am curious too and I am in the exact same boat you are.

Welcome to the club! It is nice to know that I'm not alone here.

I haven't really had a ton of time to sit and read a ton regarding this, but I did read the "An outline of faith" section in the Book of Common Prayer. It sounds pretty clear cut to me from what I've read, that Episcopalians see hell as eternal death and not a literal "fiery torture chamber". However, I am prone to misunderstandings like everyone else, and from my past religious experiences, I know just how easy it is to misunderstand and get confused.

If I am understanding it correctly(*crosses fingers*), it falls directly in line with how I have always perceived the truth to be. Hopefully someone can chime in and clear this up for the both of us!

 

[FireDragon76]

So Episcopalians see hell as eternal death rather than a physical fiery pit that tortures nonbelievers/sinners for eternity? Am I understanding this correctly or is something going way over my head? If I am understanding this correctly, I'm seriously considering pursuing faith once more and getting involved in this church.

"Eternal death" should not be understood as annihilationism (ceasing to exist), though I'm sure there are some liberal Episcopalians that don't even believe in life after death. Traditionally Christians have believed that those who are condemned, who "go to Hell", experience torment.

The majority of Episcopalians, much like Roman Catholics, do not believe that God "sends people to hell for being unbelievers", it is much more nuanced than that. Rather, without God's grace, eternal life is not possible. The sacraments of the Church are a means to this grace, and faith in Christ in this case entails entrusting that he established these sacraments for our salvation, necessitating our participation in these sacraments.

 

[PaladinValer]

Hello all! First, let me say that this is all new to me. I was raised Baptist, I believed in God, went to church every Sunday, but looking back i was so young and didn't really understand any of it. Over the last 4-5 years, I've identified myself as agnostic/deist and dismissed the Christian faith, mainly because I couldn't grasp my mind around an all loving God tormenting people for eternity by sending them to a fiery pit because they refused to worship him.

Whoever said actual Christianity taught a literal fiery pit?

That said, I have been researching Christian denominations over the last couple of days. I suppose I didn't dismiss it entirely. I eventually came upon Anglican/Episcopal and I really identify with this group, assuming I'm not misunderstanding anything

While researching, I came across various websites and forum posts that said Episcopalians don't believe in the traditional literal hell, as in a fiery lake that you'll suffer for ever and ever, but rather view it as "a state of being/separation from God". I then visited the Episcopal church website and found the book of common prayer and on page 862, it says this:

Q. What do we mean by heaven and hell?
A. By heaven, we mean eternal life in our enjoyment of God;
by hell, we mean eternal death in our rejection of God.

So Episcopalians see hell as eternal death rather than a physical fiery pit that tortures nonbelievers/sinners for eternity? Am I understanding this correctly or is something going way over my head? If I am understanding this correctly, I'm seriously considering pursuing faith once more and getting involved in this church.

Any input regarding the Episcopalian view/stance on heaven-hell-afterlife would be greatly appreciated. Cheers!

Hell, for Anglicans, is the experience of God's love as something painful because we reject it. This is akin to death, for we are cut off from the true life found in Christ. That will be an eternal fate for all who choose to turn away instead of embrace God. There's no fiery pit; there's only irrevocable agony of being surrounded by Love Eternal and rejecting it. Quite honestly, that's worse than any physical punishment.

 

[Albion]

Q. What do we mean by heaven and hell?
A. By heaven, we mean eternal life in our enjoyment of God;
by hell, we mean eternal death in our rejection of God.

So Episcopalians see hell as eternal death rather than a physical fiery pit that tortures nonbelievers/sinners for eternity? Am I understanding this correctly or is something going way over my head? If I am understanding this correctly, I'm seriously considering pursuing faith once more and getting involved in this church.

Any input regarding the Episcopalian view/stance on heaven-hell-afterlife would be greatly appreciated. Cheers!

It looks to me that the somewhat poetic (yet Biblical) language used in this excerpt from the 1979 Book of Common Prayer of The Episcopal Church is being taken by you overly literally. It does not mean eternal extinction or eternal unconsciousness. Anglicans are believers in hell as a state of separation from God and, therefore, a place where the souls experience the pain of regret and loss. It's correct that few Anglicans or Episcopalians think hell is a place of literal fire or pitchforks, etc.

By the way, this question does not appear in the historic Book of Common Prayer. The reason for the addition in the book currently used in a single province, The Episcopal Church, is, I believe, because of the reassurance given of the eternal life offered by God to those who love him, not in order to reassert the place of hell. Even at that, though, note that hell is described as a place for those who reject God. That in itself should be encouraging; it's a counter to the old notion of hell as a place for those who don't do everything right in life and so are "sent" to hell by God for it.

 

[astray13]

"Eternal death" should not be understood as annihilationism (ceasing to exist), though I'm sure there are some liberal Episcopalians that don't even believe in life after death. Traditionally Christians have believed that those who are condemned, who "go to Hell", experience torment.

The majority of Episcopalians, much like Roman Catholics, do not believe that God "sends people to hell for being unbelievers", it is much more nuanced than that. Rather, without God's grace, eternal life is not possible. The sacraments of the Church are a means to this grace, and faith in Christ in this case entails entrusting that he established these sacraments for our salvation, necessitating our participation in these sacraments.

Gotcha on the "Eternal death" shouldn't be understood as annihilationism, though I do find that concept interesting. I get what you're saying, though. Thanks for the reply.

 

[astray13]

Whoever said actual Christianity taught a literal fiery pit?

The baptist that I was raised up with. I live in a rural community, and from what I gather, this seems to be a popular position held, especially in rural communities. It had killed my desire to see, thankfully that isn't the case anymore.

Hell, for Anglicans, is the experience of God's love as something painful because we reject it. This is akin to death, for we are cut off from the true life found in Christ. That will be an eternal fate for all who choose to turn away instead of embrace God. There's no fiery pit; there's only irrevocable agony of being surrounded by Love Eternal and rejecting it. Quite honestly, that's worse than any physical punishment.

This makes perfect sense to me and was actually what I was looking for. I was reading(can't remember what website) earlier and it said that Anglicans see hell as a state of being/realm in which God is absent, so pretty much what you described. And 100% agree on that is worse than any physical punishment. The quick response is much appreciated btw.

 

[astray13]

It looks to me that the somewhat poetic (yet Biblical) language used in this excerpt from the 1979 Book of Common Prayer of The Episcopal Church is being taken by you overly literally. It does not mean eternal extinction or eternal unconsciousness. Anglicans are believers in hell as a state of separation from God and, therefore, a place where the souls experience the pain of regret and loss. It's correct that few Anglicans or Episcopalians think hell is a place of literal fire or pitchforks, etc.

By the way, this question does not appear in the historic Book of Common Prayer. The reason for the addition in the book currently used in a single province, The Episcopal Church, is, I believe, because of the reassurance given of the eternal life offered by God to those who love him, not in order to reassert the place of hell. Even at that, though, note that hell is described as a place for those who reject God. That in itself should be encouraging; it's a counter to the old notion of hell as a place for those who don't do everything right in life and so are "sent" to hell by God for it.

I'm not a bit surprised I took it overly literal, as I tend to do that sometimes. I made the mistake of equating "Eternal Death" with annihilationism, as FireDragon76 pointed out. The concept of eternal death/hell, which has been described to me in this thread, makes complete sense to me, and is much closer to the truth IMO than what I was raised to believe.

The responses I have received have cleared up so much for me and was exactly what I was looking for. I'm definitely going to pursue faith once again and I look forward to learning all I can about the Episcopal/Anglican ways and building a relationship with God. I'm definitely disappointed that it took me the last 15 years(I'm 22) to stumble upon the Episcopal church and beliefs, but I suppose it is better late than never.

It would appear this thread has ran its course, but if anyone else would like to chime in, feel free! Everyone in this thread has been a huge help for me, you have no idea how much I appreciate you guys clearing this up for me.

Have a wonderful day everybody!

 

[PaladinValer]

The baptist that I was raised up with. I live in a rural community, and from what I gather, this seems to be a popular position held, especially in rural communities. It had killed my desire to see, thankfully that isn't the case anymore.

I'm glad to hear that.

It is always important for all people, be they Christian or not,to understand that Christianity, like any other religion, is not monolithic, and even orthodox, historic Christianity isn't monolithic either. There is acceptable diversity even in orthodoxy, and a study of the history of the Church, particularly the first 7 or 8 centuries, provides strong evidence for this.

This makes perfect sense to me and was actually what I was looking for. I was reading(can't remember what website) earlier and it said that Anglicans see hell as a state of being/realm in which God is absent, so pretty much what you described. And 100% agree on that is worse than any physical punishment. The quick response is much appreciated btw.

But...that isn't what I said. I never said hell is absence of God; hell is the experience of God's Presence as something painful. The idea of God's absence isn't literal either; God is everywhere; that's a fundamental part of Christian belief. God's absence is figurative of our perception. If we reject Him, it will be as if He is absent because we will have separated ourselves from Him. God allows us this self-separation, though that doesn't change the fact that He will ALWAYS be Present everywhere.

Thus, those that will experience hell are those who choose it. We condemn ourselves. That's very important to understand; note St. John 3:16-17...people forget that verse 17 is part of what Jesus is saying in verse 16. Those who reject Him will be allowed to, and that will be their hell...being separated from the experience God's Love and Presence as something beyond comprehensive joy, wonderful, and bliss. Instead, they will gnash and wail because, being self-separated from it, they will despise it.

No annihilation (that's a very unorthodox belief); no fiery pit...self-separateness without true separation due to God's omnipresence.

 

[ebia]

http://books.google.com.au/books/about/The_Great_Divorce.html?id=2EDARL4gw20C&redir_esc=y

 

[MKJ]

It's correct that few Anglicans or Episcopalians think hell is a place of literal fire or pitchforks, etc.

Reading this it suddenly occurred to me that in a fiery Hell, a coal shovel would be more useful than a pitchfork.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Not sure what to think but I've read persuasive arguments that the eternal punishment isn't necessarily fiery pits, sulfur and all that stuff. One such is:

Torture in hell?