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Ephesians 2:8-9

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hoser

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Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--
9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.

Protestants love to throw these two verses out to "prove" their belief in "sola fida" or "faith alone". I have been accused of as a Catholic looking past these verses so as I can continue in my belief of faith and works.

The problem is that Protestants just assume that the works Paul is talking about are "good works". If that were true, it still would not contradict Catholic theology. Salvation here is talked about in the past tense, you have been saved. This passage refers back to the salvation we received at the beginning of Christians life or Baptism through sanctifying grace. Paul in other passages talks about present and future aspects of salvation. In this verse he is talking about initial salvation, not the kind we are currently receiving (1 Peter 1:8-9, Phil 2:12) or the kind that we will receive (Romans 13:11, 1 Corinthians 3:15, 5:5). If that assumption is correct, this does not contradict Catholic teaching because the Catholic Church does not teach that we receive our initial justification through good works. We are justified by grace because nothing that precedes Gods grace whether it is faith or works, merits the grace of justification.

Most likely though, Paul does NOT mean "good works" in this passage. Usually when Paul is referring to works, he is referring to "works of the Torah", which are those that are done out of obedience to the Law of Moses. (ex. Romans 3:28) Paul's point is to stress that we are saved by faith in Jesus and NOT by the Mosaic Law. See, the Jews cannot boast in front of the Gentiles because of having a privileged relationship with God because of the Mosaic Law and its requirements of circumcision. (Romans 2:6-11, 17-21, 3:21-22, 27-30)

All these elements (works, boasting, circumcision, and Jew-Gentile distinction) are present in Ephesians 2. Paul is discussing how God has shown mercy to us in Jesus and before turning to the subject of circumcision and membership in Christ, he mentions works in connection with boasting (2:9) he goes on to say...
Ephesians 2:11-19
11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--
12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility,
15 by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end.
17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near;
18 for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,


Paul is probably using works and boasting in Ephisians 2:9 in the same sense that he does in Romans, that is of Jews boasting before Gentiles of having privilege with God because of their observing the Moasaic Law. Because of that boasting by the Jews before the Gentiles, Paul is saying that we are saved, NOT in that manner, but by faith in Jesus Christ. After Paul rejects the Mosaic Law, he turns away from talking about the Mosaic Law and toward the kind of works a Christian should be doing - good words. Conveniently, Protestants like to use Ephesians 2:8-9 but don't continue reading. Here is verse 10.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

How convenient it is to "prove" salvation by faith alone with verses 8-9, but yet stop reading before verse 10. To paraphrase what is being said in Ephesians 2:6-10 is this. We as Christians are the result of God's work, for he created us anew in the body of Christ so that we might do good works, the kind of works that we should be concerned about, not the works of Moses, but good works, for God intended ahead of time for us to do them.

Faith alone, once again, nowhere to be found.
 
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Be Happy

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Ephesians 2:8-9 show that nothing we can do can earn salvatoin.
It is a gift of God.

2:10 shows that we were created to DO the works God has foreordained for us.

Which when added to James, shows that if we are really born again, we will want to do those works God will provide for us to do.

Be it feeding hungry or going to the nursing homes and prisons.
 
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greeker57married

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hoser vbmenu_register("postmenu_16019036", true);

The problem is that Protestants just assume that the works Paul is talking about are "good works". If that were true, it still would not contradict Catholic theology. Salvation here is talked about in the past tense, you have been saved. This passage refers back to the salvation we received at the beginning of Christians life or Baptism through sanctifying grace. Paul in other passages talks about present and future aspects of salvation. In this verse he is talking about initial salvation, not the kind we are currently receiving (1 Peter 1:8-9, Phil 2:12) or the kind that we will receive (Romans 13:11, 1 Corinthians 3:15, 5:5). If that assumption is correct, this does not contradict Catholic teaching because the Catholic Church does not teach that we receive our initial justification through good works. We are justified by grace because nothing that precedes Gods grace whether it is faith or works, merits the grace of justification.

Works are the the result of salvation. We are saved by Grace through faith plus nothing else. The phrase in Ehp. 2:8.

"by gracehave ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;" "have you been saves is present perfect tense in the Greek youweresaved by faith and continue to be saved by faith."

:wave:
God Bless
Greeker
 
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HypnoToad

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Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

How convenient it is to "prove" salvation by faith alone with verses 8-9, but yet stop reading before verse 10. To paraphrase what is being said in Ephesians 2:6-10 is this. We as Christians are the result of God's work, for he created us anew in the body of Christ so that we might do good works, the kind of works that we should be concerned about, not the works of Moses, but good works, for God intended ahead of time for us to do them.

Just because we're expected to do works doesn't mean they do anything to save us.

Works are the result of salvation, not the cause of it.
 
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hoser

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greeker57married said:
hoser vbmenu_register("postmenu_16019036", true);

[/size][/font]
Works are the the result of salvation. We are saved by Grace through faith plus nothing else. The phrase in Ehp. 2:8.

"by gracehave ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;" "have you been saves is present perfect tense in the Greek youweresaved by faith and continue to be saved by faith."

:wave:
God Bless
Greeker

I guess you didn't read the rest of my post that explained your misunderstading of the whole verse. And this in Greek is the perfect tense, which denotes the past tense, completed action that has continuing effects in the present. As I stated, this passage refers to the salvation received at the beginning of Christian life. Do NOT ignore verse 10 to prove your point.
 
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linden

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greeker57married said:
hoser vbmenu_register("postmenu_16019036", true);

[/size][/font]
Works are the the result of salvation. We are saved by Grace through faith plus nothing else. The phrase in Ehp. 2:8.

"by gracehave ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;" "have you been saves is present perfect tense in the Greek youweresaved by faith and continue to be saved by faith."

:wave:
God Bless
Greeker


I would add that we have faith in what Jesus Christ's work accomplished at the cross. If I say I had anything to do with redemption I would be boasting (I can not boast that I had anything to do redemption). I can not boast I had anything to do with reconciliation. I especially can not boast that I had anything to do with propitiation (or expiation). These are saving works that our Lord and Savior accomplished at the cross, appropiated to us only by our non meritous faith in those works. It's called grace.


Linden
 
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hoser

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XianJedi said:
Just because we're expected to do works doesn't mean they do anything to save us.

Works are the result of salvation, not the cause of it.
[/color][/font] [/size][/size][/size]

So, if we're "expected to do good works" as you say, then if we do not do any "good works expected of us", then it really doesn't matter because they are not necessary? So good works are "expected" but not necessary? I don't know about you, but if God expects something, I would consider it necessary!

Works are part of salvation. We are saved by God's grace. Our response to the gift of grace is faith in Jesus and the works completes our faith. What is faith without works? What kind of faith is that? It is dead faith.
James 2:14
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
James 2:17
17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
James 2:22-24
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Believe me, I know that you Protestants LOVE to give these verses in James a "different" interpretation as to fit your theology. But the fact is you can twist what James is saying here all you want, but it doesn't wash.
 
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Saint_George

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Good works are a necessity. If they are not, please explain this verse (sola scriptura believers)

Matt. 25

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



Good works, are always a necessity, thats why catholics tend to want to sit on the right, we need the works.

Saint_George
 
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hoser said:
Works are part of salvation. We are saved by God's grace. Our response to the gift of grace is faith in Jesus and the works completes our faith. What is faith without works? What kind of faith is that? It is dead faith...........

So then, why are works not the result or evidence of saving faith?...You said that works are our response to the gift of salvation.

The person who professes faith, yet has no works becomes like...

[bible]matthew 7:21[/bible]

This verse speaks about works being the evidence of a person having faith...Yet, it is not the works that save, but works are the result of saving faith...

[bible]James 2:18[/bible]

Saving faith produces works.
 
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HypnoToad

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So, if we're "expected to do good works" as you say, then if we do not do any "good works expected of us", then it really doesn't matter because they are not necessary? So good works are "expected" but not necessary? I don't know about you, but if God expects something, I would consider it necessary!
Strawman - I never said they weren't "necessary", I said they don't do anything to save you.

Works are part of salvation. We are saved by God's grace. Our response to the gift of grace is faith in Jesus and the works completes our faith. What is faith without works? What kind of faith is that? It is dead faith.
Another strawman. I never said they have no part in salvation. I said they aren't the cause of it. Being a result of salvation clearly makes them "a part" of salvation.
 
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hoser

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Forest said:
So then, why are works not the result or evidence of saving faith?...You said that works are our response to the gift of salvation.

The person who professes faith, yet has no works becomes like...

Matthew 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

This verse speaks about works being the evidence of a person having faith...Yet, it is not the works that save, but works are the result of saving faith...

James 2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Saving faith produces works.

You are exactly right, congradulations! :clap: I agree 100% with the verses that you supplied and the "commentary" that you gave with it. One cannot have works without faith. Faith is a must. Faith must come first. With our faith, works must be then present, because faith without works is dead.
 
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theend0218

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I enjoyed your explanation of the passage. I am from within the Protestant tradition, so I did feel a bit defensive at some of the things you said. However, all in all I think there is little in your explanation of the text itself I would not subscribe to as a believer. Could you clarify the exact issue. I can see several possibilities:

(1) that as a Catholic you believe the good works believers are to walk in are now, in our present life, a requirement for the continuation of salvation in the present and future (its continuation)?

(2) that as a Cahtolic you believe Protestants do not believe they should walk in good works now in their present life?

(3) that as a Catholic you feel accused of believing that good works are essential in a believers life for salvation but do not really believe this, but do believe we need to do good works and believe Protestants do not stress this enough?

(4) that the phrase "faith alone" fails to take into consideration that God created us in Christ and planned before that we would walk in good works and is therefore an inadequate statement of what it means to be saved in its fullest sense?

I believe it is number (4), but I do not want to misunderstand your intent.

As to the Greek: would not the perfect indeed point to an event (a past event for a believer) that does continue into the present and thus we are continuing to be saved by faith, not works of the law? At least I think that is a valid understanding. The good works (e.g. as in "fruit of the spirit") would be an aspect of that salvation since they are a part of God's plan for us now in this life - in this text, the very purpose for which God created us in Christ Jesus?

Thanks for the OP.
 
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Amongst the Flock

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Our works our for his glory and it shows that our personal faith is put into action.

Thus a body without a spirit is dead, and faith without works is dead. James 2:26

Jesus is the Living word of the truth and he thus walked in the word for us to the perfection that it is.

Thus as slaves to his righteousness, (rom 6), we do the works so we can thus live the word and walk in the word. Otherwise what do we have faith in. It is easy to accept the truth and not do the works because it isn't always cofortable to confess his name in public.

What is the greatest work of all?

The footgear of the spiritual armor to spread the good news of eternity in heaven for those who give their life to Christ.

If it wasn't for the footgear and those before us we would never have learned about it. thus the Bible could have been passed on but without seeing it lived out in someones life we would just read it in the flesh and it would just be a book of stories.

And the Holy Spirit interprets the word for us and greater is he who is in us then he who is in the world and if we crucify the flesh (Rom 12) and allow the Holy Spirit to reign in our lives and teach our spirit to grow and walk in the word then we can share the love and peace of the gospel to the world.

We live by faith not by sight.

The world lives by sight and we all lived by sight at one point. They can only see God's glory by the works of Christians who are walking the walk and doing the works for God's glory and his glory only. He gave us his son and Jesus reconciled us to the Father and gave us the crown of Life. We do the works for his glory and out of love and gratitude for God's grace and mercy.

Peace, Love, and Joy to all.
 
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FreeinChrist

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hoser said:
I guess you didn't read the rest of my post that explained your misunderstading of the whole verse. And this in Greek is the perfect tense, which denotes the past tense, completed action that has continuing effects in the present. As I stated, this passage refers to the salvation received at the beginning of Christian life. Do NOT ignore verse 10 to prove your point.

He was writing to believers, who WERE saved.
The part that says "have been saved" is written as a perfect particle passive in Greek. A perfect particle stresses a state brought about by the finished results of an action, and that have a continued effect. The passive voice mens the subject "ye" or "you" are the recipients of the action.
Yep, salvation is received at the beginning of a person's Christian life. I would add that it is when one believes in Jesus Christ.
I don't see though that you can use this to disprove what Protestants have been saying in regards to this passage, as this all actually proves what Protestants (Baptists anyway, as that is what I am most familiar with) say.

The good works are not a part of recieving salvation, but show our faith. A saved person will want to do those good works.
 
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FreeinChrist

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hoser said:
You are exactly right, congradulations! :clap: I agree 100% with the verses that you supplied and the "commentary" that you gave with it. One cannot have works without faith. Faith is a must. Faith must come first. With our faith, works must be then present, because faith without works is dead.

And this disagrees with Protestant doctrine how?

Several places in this thread folks have stated that 'works' reflect faith. Check post #2, #4, #5 (Works are the the result of salvation.), #6....

I don't think you are proving anyone's misunderstanding. :)
 
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Antman_05 said:
These no doubt that we are Saved by grace then Faith. Works does not save us. The reason we have "works" is because we are saved its our fruit. if you plant a fruit tree then it bears fruit, otherwise their is something wrong with it. Same with us as Christians the works are our fruit, they aren't how we get saved, they just show that we are saved.

Couldn't have said it better :thumbsup:
 
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