EO view of Origional Sin

[geocajun]

in a thread on the OBOB forum, JefftheFinn posted:

Orthodox understanding of Original Sin is different. If it means as the west means by Original Sin then the Immaculate Conception can not be accepted by Orthodox, as it challenges the Salvation of Humankind by divorcing the Blessed Theotokos from the rest of humanity. In the Orthodox understanding all infants are born immaculately.
Jeff the Finn

This is news to me. I had no idea that the teachings on origional sin were different among our two Churchs.
Lets not get hung up on the Immaculate Conception from the quote above, but rather focus on the doctrine of original sin only please.

Given this teaching from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

CCC-405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

Can someone please explain, given the teaching above, what the distinctions are between Catholic and Orthodox teaching?

 

[Photini]

Hey there....
can you please post the link to the catechism?
Thanks.

 

[Reader Nilus]

In Orthodoxy the result of the fall is death and suffering. As infants we bear the effects of the fall, but are free to chose to live a righteous life, as did the Ever-Virgin Mary the Theotokos. As the Psalmist sings In SINS did my mother conceive me. Our conception did not pass on a taint of sin, we chose to sin by our own free will.
Jeff the Finn

 

[geocajun]

Hey there....
can you please post the link to the catechism?
Thanks.

Sure, there are many online versions available, but this is my personal favorite:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

also here it is at the Vatican:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

 

[geocajun]

In Orthodoxy the result of the fall is death and suffering. As infants we bear the effects of the fall, but are free to chose to live a righteous life

riiight, but specifically, how is this different than Catholic teaching as you indicated it was in the OP quote from you.

 

[geocajun]

I guess the crux of the matter is, if all infants are "born immaculately" as jeffthefinn indicated in his quote in the OP, then why did Jesus die for us?

 

[Matrona]

I guess the crux of the matter is, if all infants are "born immaculately" as jeffthefinn indicated in his quote in the OP, then why did Jesus die for us?

I think Jesus died to save us all from the consequences of our sin, which we all have no matter what. The Theotokos and immaculate babies are sinless, but they are all subject to death.

One of the priests I know told me, if a baby dies unbaptized, we don't believe that baby's soul goes anywhere but heaven. (I'm a pro-life activist so being certain of Orthodox belief on this was very important to me as a catechumen.)

 

[geocajun]

I think Jesus died to save us all from the consequences of our sin, which we all have no matter what. The Theotokos and immaculate babies are sinless, but they are all subject to death.

Can you quote any official Orthodox doctrine to demonstrate this to me?
It isn't that I do not believe you, but I want to try to get as technical (dogmatic even) as I can on it so I know the exact differences between our two views on this matter.
I am doing a little research on this, and the term 'consequences' should be defined as that same term could be used to say 'guilt' as well which apparently is one of the distinctions between our two Church views.

also in Orthodoxy, what is said to be the effect of baptism?

 

[Matrona]

Can you quote any official Orthodox doctrine to demonstrate this to me?

also in Orthodoxy, what is said to be the effect of baptism?

The Dogmatic Tradition of the Orthodox Church
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8038.asp

The Sacraments
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7105.asp

These should help you; if you need any more I will do my best to help. The www.goarch.org website is a great resource on the Orthodox faith. It helped me out big time recently when I was writing a paper for a religious studies class that related to Orthodox soteriology and I needed to find sources to cite, and I didn't have any of my catechism books.

 

[geocajun]

also, Do the Orthodox teach that one can merit anything prior to baptism?

 

[geocajun]

Thanks Matrona, I am going to research those links!

 

[Photini]

also in Orthodoxy, what is said to be the effect of baptism?

From St. Symeon the New Theologian:

"For this reason there has come another birth, or rebirth, which regenerates man through Holy Baptism by the Holy Spirit, again unites him with the Divine nature as it was when he was created by the hands of God, restores all the powers of his soul, renews them and brings them to the condition in which they were before the transgression of the first-created Adam; in this way it leads him into the Kingdom of God, into which no one unbaptized can enter, and enlightens him with its light and grants him to taste its joys. Thus each one who is baptised again becomes such as Adam was before the transgression, and is led into the noetic Paradise and received the commandment to work it and keep it---to work it by fulfillment of the commandments of Jesus Christ Who has recreated him, and to keep it by the keeping of the grace of the Holy Spirit which was given to him through Holy Baptism, confessing that the power of this grace which dwells in him fulfills together with him the commandments of Christ. In this consists the keeping. And as it is impossible for a house to stand without a foundation, so also it in impossible for the soul which believes in Christ to manifest a God-pleasing life if i it there will not be laid as a foundation the grace of the Holy Spirit. FOr fasting, and vigils, and sleeping on the floor, and prostrations, and prayng, and every other suffering of evil is nothing without Divine grace. And if you hear that anyone after evident Christian works has fallen away from Christ, know that at that time he was without the grace of God. For the Holy Spirit gives life to the soul, as the soul give life to the body; and the soul becomes strong, firm and constant.

Great is this mystery. Let man be reverent before it, let him pay heed to it and preserve it. By this grace of the Holy Spirit there is performed in the heart the sacrifice of praise, and the heart itself is made pure, contrite, and humble, and knowing that it has nothing of its own it cannot be exalted in pride. This humility of heart that is contrite and belittles itself, this humility that is true and not for show, not out of vainglory, is precisely the sacrifice of praise which is offered to God. Impure before the Lord is not every sinner, but rather everyone who is high-minded and proud, because there is no one without sin. But one who is humble of heart is righteous and acts righteously, for he is filled with the grace of the Holy Spirit which instructs him in every good and strengthens it in him. This grace gives to him that holy thing 'without which no one may behold the Lord (Heb 12:14). Therefore it is said: 'Let the impious one be taken away, lest he see the glory of the Lord' (Isaiah 26:10). And who is the impious one? The one who is high-minded, in whom the degree of impiety is equal to the degree of his pride; and, on the contrary, in the one who is humble of heart, the degree of piety is equal to the degree of his humility.

But who is the one who is humble of heart? Not the wise man, not the one who knows much, not the scholar, not the artist, not the workman---but he who has the grace of the Holy Spirit which, cleansing the soul of every sin and teaching it to live righteously and God-pleasingly, gives to it true wisdom and knowledge and ability to act."

from The First-Created Man by St. Symeon the New Theologian

I also have been listening recently to some cassettes on this subject, that said that Holy Baptism enables us also to enter into the sufferings of Christ as active participants, in order to grow into the likeness of Christ. (As well as bringing about remission of sins, and making us children of God.)

 

[Photini]

also, Do the Orthodox teach that one can merit anything prior to baptism?

I haven't heard anything of "merit" in any Orthodox teaching thus far, neither before or after Baptism.

 

[geocajun]

what about sanctification? prior to baptism that is

 

[Photini]

I asked in another thread, but didn't get an answer...but is it true that the Catholic Church has not acknowledged between the essence and energies of God...and also the created and uncreated?
This is a huge part of our theology.

[edited to add= I know this seems off subject...but it really isn't....]

thanks

 

[geocajun]

I asked in another thread, but didn't get an answer...but is it true that the Catholic Church has not acknowledged between the essence and energies of God...and also the created and uncreated?
This is a huge part of our theology.

[edited to add= I know this seems off subject...but it really isn't....]

thanks

I guess I would like to see an example to better understand the question.
Can you show me where anyone has done this?

 

[MariaRegina]

I asked in another thread, but didn't get an answer...but is it true that the Catholic Church has not acknowledged between the essence and energies of God...and also the created and uncreated?
This is a huge part of our theology.

[edited to add= I know this seems off subject...but it really isn't....]

thanks

Dear Photini:

I studied grace at Holy Names College when I took a course offered by the Dominican Fathers there. The Roman Catholic Church taught at that time (1973) that sanctifying grace is created, whereas the Orthodox teach that Divine Grace is God's Uncreated Energy. I had not heard of the Uncreated Divine Energies of God until I came into Orthodoxy.

I've noticed that Catholic teachings have changed somewhat. To give an example: The Baltimore Catechism taught that the Pope was the head of the Roman Catholic Church; whereas the CCC now teaches that Christ is the Head of the Roman Catholic Church.

Interestingly several Orthodox Priests who have studied the CCC say that Catholic doctrine has changed significantly since Vatican II. They were surprised at how the CCC presents very orthodox theology. An Eastern Catholic Bishop said that the Byzantine Catholics helped to contribute much to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Hope this helps.
Elizabeth

 

[Benedicta00]

Catholic doctrine has not changed Elizabeth. You just think it has. I am sorry that you misunderstand the Church.

 

[Photini]

I guess I would like to see an example to better understand the question.
Can you show me where anyone has done this?

Now that I really think of it...maybe a new thread should be started for this. For I am curious to see what the Catholic teaching on the soul is.

I will have to come back to this tomorrow...I'm getting kinda tired.
Here is a good article though....http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/christou_palamas.html

 

[MariaRegina]

Catholic doctrine has not changed Elizabeth. You just think it has. I am sorry that you misunderstand the Church.

Dear Michelle:

I understand the Catholic Church very well as I was a Catholic until 1996 and lived in a Catholic Monastery for three years studying her theology intensely. I still study Catholicism to understand the Catholic-Orthodox dialogues that are currently taking place. The results of these dialogues are presented to us for study in our Orthodox magazines and newspapers. These papers are written by both Roman Catholic and Orthodox Hierarchy and clergy. Incidentally, I have more books on Catholic theology than Orthodox books.

At the monastery I read Archbishop Anthony Bloom (May his memory be eternal). His writing made sense to me and I started to investigate the Orthodox Church.

Catholic theology, as you and Jason have admitted, does develop. Development is change. How else would you explain the Catholic dogma of Papal Infallibility and Papal supremacy. These developed gradually over 1870 years.

Orthodox Theology doesn't change because we believe in the Holy Catholic Faith which was once delivered by Christ to His Apostles for all peoples and all times. This faith is unchanging and does not develop. This is the very meaning of the word "catholic". It may take some thought as to how to properly express our faith, but our Holy Catholic Faith neither changes nor develops.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth