EO, OO Treasury of merit of the saints?

[tall73]

Do the Eastern or Oriental orthodox have any similar notion to this section of the Catholic Catechism below?

If so, please post quotes from verifiable sources.

Thanks!


From the Catholic Catechism:

​

Part Two Section Two The Seven Sacrements Of The Church Chapter Two The Sacraments Of Healing Article 4 The Sacrament Of Penance And Reconciliation X. Indulgences

www.vatican.va

​

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy."87​

​

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."88​

 

[The Liturgist]

Do the Eastern or Oriental orthodox have any similar notion to this section of the Catholic Catechism below?

If so, please post quotes from verifiable sources.

Thanks!


From the Catholic Catechism:

​

Part Two Section Two The Seven Sacrements Of The Church Chapter Two The Sacraments Of Healing Article 4 The Sacrament Of Penance And Reconciliation X. Indulgences

www.vatican.va

​

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy."87​

​

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."88​

No. The idea of a Treasury of Merit is a specifically Roman Catholic concept related to purgatory and indulgences.

The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox do believe that seeking the intercession of the saints is highly desirable as one should have as many of the Church as possible pray for one, so we ask for their intercession as well as that of our friends and loved ones and fellow members of the Church.

In this respect, that we seek the intercession of the saints but do not believe in a system of purgatory, indulgences or a treasury of merit, our approach to the intercession of the saints is faithful that of the early church.

This approach also is shared by the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, and many members of the very high church traditional Anglo-Catholic and some Liberal Catholic members of the Anglican Communion, GAFCON (traditional Anglican churches of the Global South, who include some Anglo Catholics in their ranks but also many low church evangelicals, for example, the Archdiocese of Sydney is dominated by the latter, although it does have an Anglo Catholic parish of St. James King Street) and continuing Anglo-Catholic Anglicans (Continuing Anglicans are traditional and conservative American Anglicans who felt alienated by the leftward direction of the Episcopal Church and the 1979 BCP, and are not members of ACNA; most are Anglo Catholic but some are Low Church).

Some Anglo Catholics, known as Anglo Papalists, fully subscribe to the Roman doctrine, but most of the Anglo Papalists are believed to have joined the Anglican Ordinariates or to have converted to the Roman Rite directly.

I am not sure whether Old Catholics whether of the liberal Union of Utrecht or the conservative Union of Scranton (consisting of the Polish and Norwegian Old Catholics) believe in the treasury of merit and purgatory or not; I don’t think they do.

 

[tall73]

No. The idea of a Treasury of Merit is a specifically Roman Catholic concept related to purgatory and indulgences.

The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox do believe that seeking the intercession of the saints is highly desirable as one should have as many of the Church as possible pray for one, so we ask for their intercession as well as that of our friends and loved ones and fellow members of the Church.

In this respect, that we seek the intercession of the saints but do not believe in a system of purgatory, indulgences or a treasury of merit, our approach to the intercession of the saints is faithful that of the early church.

This approach also is shared by the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, and many members of the very high church traditional Anglo-Catholic and some Liberal Catholic members of the Anglican Communion, GAFCON (traditional Anglican churches of the Global South, who include some Anglo Catholics in their ranks but also many low church evangelicals, for example, the Archdiocese of Sydney is dominated by the latter, although it does have an Anglo Catholic parish of St. James King Street) and continuing Anglo-Catholic Anglicans (Continuing Anglicans are traditional and conservative American Anglicans who felt alienated by the leftward direction of the Episcopal Church and the 1979 BCP, and are not members of ACNA; most are Anglo Catholic but some are Low Church).

Some Anglo Catholics, known as Anglo Papalists, fully subscribe to the Roman doctrine, but most of the Anglo Papalists are believed to have joined the Anglican Ordinariates or to have converted to the Roman Rite directly.

I am not sure whether Old Catholics whether of the liberal Union of Utrecht or the conservative Union of Scranton (consisting of the Polish and Norwegian Old Catholics) believe in the treasury of merit and purgatory or not; I don’t think they do.

Thank you. I had not heard anything that they did, but wanted to see if I had missed something.

It is hard to find a source for what one doesn't teach, but do you have any works which show the Eastern or Oriental churches responding to the western view?

 

[tall73]

God’s “Righteousness”

A Roman Catholic friend (and a good theologian) recently asked me whether the Greek Fathers of the Church understand the term “righteousness” in a forensic sense. He was referring to a Protestant doctrine that holds that God does not “make” us righteous; He “declares” or “counts” us righteous...

www.oca.org

@The Liturgist


Does this seem like an accurate representation of the Orthodox view?

 

[RileyG]

Thank you @The Liturgist

 

[The Liturgist]

God’s “Righteousness”

A Roman Catholic friend (and a good theologian) recently asked me whether the Greek Fathers of the Church understand the term “righteousness” in a forensic sense. He was referring to a Protestant doctrine that holds that God does not “make” us righteous; He “declares” or “counts” us righteous...

www.oca.org

@The Liturgist


Does this seem like an accurate representation of the Orthodox view?

I’ve seen better, more accurate and less polemical representations. What he says strikes me as not completely aligning with the liturgical texts, for example, of the Triodion, the service book used during the Great Lent, and the pre-Lenten season. The hymns of Pre-Lent and of the Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete are extremely penitential.

I suggest reading The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan kallistos Ware, and Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, or better yet, reading our liturgical service books which are now available online. If you PM me I can assist you in accessing these resources.

Suffice it to say, there is a reason why the Orthodox historically have gotten along well with the Anglicans, to the point where the Episcopal Church nearly entered into communion with the Russian Orthodox Church in the early 1900s (this was thwarted by a combination of the vocal Low Church minority and the Bolshevik takeover in “Red October” of 1917. There is also a reason why on this site, we so frequently find ourselves in agreement with the Lutherans like my friends @ViaCrucis and @MarkRohfrietsch , and the problem with that article is it simply trashes Western theology promoting a false dichotomy between East and West similar to the false dichotomy between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism that I find so frustrating.

I greatly dislike false dichotomies. There are actual dichotomies, for example, between Christianity and superstition, but divisive false dichotomies within Christianity promote the continuation of schisms. So while some of what he writes is technically correct, some of Fr. Breck’s points are theolougoumena (theological opinions) rather than doctrine, and still others are debateable, or are presented in a polemical us vs. them manner.

It is true that the Orthodox regard sin as a disease and tend to treat it in a less forensic manner, but this does not mean we lack the concept of repentence or the idea that sin is a personal moral failure, a lack of righteousness; we would agree with St. Augustine that Donatism was in error in insisting that the validity of sacraments depended on the righteousness of the clergy offering it in part because everyone sins, but by the grace of the Holy Spirit through the process of Theosis we can sin less; Christ offers us a salve that helps ease our sin and allows us the hope of resurrection unto life everlasting.

 

[Tigran1245]

Armenian Church has a doctrine of Intermediate Station of souls. The souls of Christians who have been cleansed of sin but have a debt of good deeds (have done more evil than good) cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven immediately. The prayers and deeds of the Church cover their debt of good deeds.

 

[The Liturgist]

Armenian Church has a doctrine of Intermediate Station of souls. The souls of Christians who have been cleansed of sin but have a debt of good deeds (have done more evil than good) cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven immediately. The prayers and deeds of the Church cover their debt of good deeds.

it seems probable you’re conflating the doctrines of the Armenian Catholic Church, which before the genocide and the Soviet conquest of Armenia, was the largest Eastern Catholic Church by far, with those of the Oriental Orthodox Armenian Apostolic Church, since in the past you’ve made unsubstantiated claims about St. Severus and other statements that contradict established Oriental Orthodox doctrine to such an extent that if they were true, it would rupture the OO communion and also OO-EO relations.

 

[RileyG]

Armenian Church has a doctrine of Intermediate Station of souls. The souls of Christians who have been cleansed of sin but have a debt of good deeds (have done more evil than good) cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven immediately. The prayers and deeds of the Church cover their debt of good deeds.

Aerial toll houses? In OO theology?

 

[RileyG]

it seems probable you’re conflating the doctrines of the Armenian Catholic Church, which before the genocide and the Soviet conquest of Armenia, was the largest Eastern Catholic Church by far, with those of the Oriental Orthodox Armenian Apostolic Church, since in the past you’ve made unsubstantiated claims about St. Severus and other statements that contradict established Oriental Orthodox doctrine to such an extent that if they were true, it would rupture the OO communion and also OO-EO relations.

That’s really unfortunate! May the holy martyrs pray to God for us!

 

[Tigran1245]

it seems probable you’re conflating the doctrines of the Armenian Catholic Church, which before the genocide and the Soviet conquest of Armenia, was the largest Eastern Catholic Church by far, with those of the Oriental Orthodox Armenian Apostolic Church,

Armenian Catholics believe in purgatory. The doctrine of the Station of Souls was formulated by St. Gregory of Tatev precisely in opposition to purgatory, against the Latins. You can read it in “Book of Questions”.

Here is explanation from my Vardapet in Russian language. But you can watch with subtitles

I have a book on the doctrine in question-answer format. I translate the section on the Station of souls:

Where does the Angel carry the soul of a person?

The souls of the righteous are carried to the Heavenly abodes, which the Lord promised: "In my Father's house are many abodes. If it were not so, I would have told you: I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and take you to myself, that where I am, there you may be also" (John 14:2-3).

And the souls of those Christians who have not fulfilled the deeds of righteousness and have not reached perfection and the souls of sinners, the Angel carries to a special abodes-station of souls, where they will await the Judgment.

Where are the abodes and station of souls?

The abodes are the Heavenly Jerusalem: "But ye are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn which are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect" (Heb. 12:22-23).

And they serve before the Throne of God: "They are now before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more: neither shall the sun light upon them, nor any heat: for the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes" (Rev. 7:15-17).

These righteous do not come to the Judgment! And the station of souls is between the Heavenly Jerusalem and the Earth, where souls await the future Judgment.

Is the state of human souls in the station of souls the same?

No, they are not the same. Those Christians who lived righteously and died in repentance, but have not yet reached perfection because of their sins, await the Judgment in joy and the mercy of justification. Those Christians who died in sins and unrepentantly await the Judgment of punishment in fear: “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left” (Matt. 25:31-33).
And people who have not accepted Christ will not come to the Judgment either, for they have already been condemned: “He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18), and they also await eternal punishment in fear.

An example of this is the case of righteous Joseph, who, having ended up in prison, interpreted the dreams of Pharaoh’s servants: the cupbearer and the baker (see Gen. 40). One of them waited in joy for Pharaoh’s mercy, and the other in fear of the death sentence.

Do the souls of people now have glory and punishment?

Note that glory can be twofold: of deeds and reward. Now the glory of deeds is expectation in joy, and after the resurrection they will be honored with the glory of reward. Likewise, punishment can be twofold: of deeds and reward. Now the punishment is due to deeds, i.e. they await in fear the punishment of retribution after the resurrection from the dead.

Do the souls of the dead recognize each other?

Yes, they will recognize each other, as the rich man recognized Lazarus.

Do the dead know what is happening on Earth?

The righteous know and pray for the living, but sinners themselves do not know, Angels or demons inform them.

Do the souls of the dead appear to the living?

The righteous themselves appear both in dreams and in reality, when they want and to whom they want, in order to help the living. Unperfected Christians appear through Angels, or the Angels themselves in their form appear to the living and ask for prayers. But the souls of sinners cannot appear.

Who will be condemned to eternal destruction without Judgment?

All those who did not accept Christ: “he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18).

Who will be condemned to eternal destruction after the Judgment and examination?

Those Christians who are Christians in word, but not in deed. Those who sinned and died without repentance, to such the Lord will say: "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41).

Who will be saved without the Judgment?

The Prophets, Apostles and Saints, they, as was said, will judge everyone.

Who will be saved after the Judgment and examination?

All those Christians who, living a righteous life, still had sins, but died in repentance. Such will be saved by the mercy of the Lord, Who will say to them: "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt. 25:34).

since in the past you’ve made unsubstantiated claims about St. Severus

Everything I said about Severus is based on the tradition of Armenian Church, as well as research of modern Armenian theologians. I have not added anything of my own.

and other statements that contradict established Oriental Orthodox doctrine to such an extent that if they were true, it would rupture the OO communion and also OO-EO relations.

Look, if you want, I can share the links where I got everything I wrote . And you can blame original source for lies, not me.

 

[RileyG]

^ It's my understanding Eastern Catholics believe in purgatory, but do not call it that, nor put much emphasis on it. They pray for the dead the same way EO and OO Christians do. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[The Liturgist]

Armenian Catholics believe in purgatory. The doctrine of the Station of Souls was formulated by St. Gregory of Tatev precisely in opposition to purgatory, against the Latins. You can read it in “Book of Questions”.

Here is explanation from my Vardapet in Russian language. But you can watch with subtitles

I have a book on the doctrine in question-answer format. I translate the section on the Station of souls:

Where does the Angel carry the soul of a person?

The souls of the righteous are carried to the Heavenly abodes, which the Lord promised: "In my Father's house are many abodes. If it were not so, I would have told you: I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and take you to myself, that where I am, there you may be also" (John 14:2-3).

And the souls of those Christians who have not fulfilled the deeds of righteousness and have not reached perfection and the souls of sinners, the Angel carries to a special abodes-station of souls, where they will await the Judgment.

Where are the abodes and station of souls?

The abodes are the Heavenly Jerusalem: "But ye are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn which are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect" (Heb. 12:22-23).

And they serve before the Throne of God: "They are now before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more: neither shall the sun light upon them, nor any heat: for the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes" (Rev. 7:15-17).

These righteous do not come to the Judgment! And the station of souls is between the Heavenly Jerusalem and the Earth, where souls await the future Judgment.

Is the state of human souls in the station of souls the same?

No, they are not the same. Those Christians who lived righteously and died in repentance, but have not yet reached perfection because of their sins, await the Judgment in joy and the mercy of justification. Those Christians who died in sins and unrepentantly await the Judgment of punishment in fear: “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left” (Matt. 25:31-33).
And people who have not accepted Christ will not come to the Judgment either, for they have already been condemned: “He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18), and they also await eternal punishment in fear.

An example of this is the case of righteous Joseph, who, having ended up in prison, interpreted the dreams of Pharaoh’s servants: the cupbearer and the baker (see Gen. 40). One of them waited in joy for Pharaoh’s mercy, and the other in fear of the death sentence.

Do the souls of people now have glory and punishment?

Note that glory can be twofold: of deeds and reward. Now the glory of deeds is expectation in joy, and after the resurrection they will be honored with the glory of reward. Likewise, punishment can be twofold: of deeds and reward. Now the punishment is due to deeds, i.e. they await in fear the punishment of retribution after the resurrection from the dead.

Do the souls of the dead recognize each other?

Yes, they will recognize each other, as the rich man recognized Lazarus.

Do the dead know what is happening on Earth?

The righteous know and pray for the living, but sinners themselves do not know, Angels or demons inform them.

Do the souls of the dead appear to the living?

The righteous themselves appear both in dreams and in reality, when they want and to whom they want, in order to help the living. Unperfected Christians appear through Angels, or the Angels themselves in their form appear to the living and ask for prayers. But the souls of sinners cannot appear.

Who will be condemned to eternal destruction without Judgment?

All those who did not accept Christ: “he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18).

Who will be condemned to eternal destruction after the Judgment and examination?

Those Christians who are Christians in word, but not in deed. Those who sinned and died without repentance, to such the Lord will say: "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41).

Who will be saved without the Judgment?

The Prophets, Apostles and Saints, they, as was said, will judge everyone.

Who will be saved after the Judgment and examination?

All those Christians who, living a righteous life, still had sins, but died in repentance. Such will be saved by the mercy of the Lord, Who will say to them: "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt. 25:34).


Everything I said about Severus is based on the tradition of Armenian Church, as well as research of modern Armenian theologians. I have not added anything of my own.

Look, if you want, I can share the links where I got everything I wrote . And you can blame original source for lies, not me.

Oh, thats just the EO doctrine of aerial toll houses. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Tigran1245]

Oh, thats just the EO doctrine of aerial toll houses. Thank you for clarifying.

Actually, no. If you watch the video, it's called "Purgatory or Aerial toll houses?". First, Vardapet Ghevond refutes doctrines of purgatory and aerial toll houses. Then he explains our doctrine.

 

[RileyG]

Oh, thats just the EO doctrine of aerial toll houses. Thank you for clarifying.

I thought many Orthodox reject the aerial toll houses?

 

[RileyG]

Actually, no. If you watch the video, it's called "Purgatory or Aerial toll houses?". First, Vardapet Ghevond refutes doctrines of purgatory and aerial toll houses. Then he explains our doctrine.

Do EO and OO have the same views of the afterlife? (Yes, I realize they aren't in Communion with each other)

 

[Tigran1245]

Do EO and OO have the same views of the afterlife? (Yes, I realize they aren't in Communion with each other)

No, they don't. But as I understand it, this is not a problem, because all views of OO and EO on afterlife are not dogmatic: this is personal opinion of the saints or decisions of local councils, which are not obligatory for the whole Church. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

 

[The Liturgist]

No, they don't. But as I understand it, this is not a problem, because all views of OO and EO on afterlife are not dogmatic: this is personal opinion of the saints or decisions of local councils, which are not obligatory for the whole Church. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

No, on this point you are correct. The EO views are theologoumemna and likewise the OO view is officially undefined, which is good.

By the way I just want to say I greatly appreciate your contribution to the forum; it was not my intend to question your honesty, but I did not understand the Armenian doctrine as it was first explained, and I misread your post.

Since our only Coptic Orthodox member has become inactive your contribution to the forum is vital. By the way, lately I have been doing a survey of Syriac Orthodox liturgies which as are very similar to the Armenian, differing mainly in the vestments. My favorite church music is that of the Syriacs, Armenians, Copts and Church Slavonic Eastern Orthodox. With regards to Armenian church music, I love Komitas (Gormidas) especially, but Yekmalian’s setting of the Soorp Badarak is consistently good.

 

[RileyG]

No, they don't. But as I understand it, this is not a problem, because all views of OO and EO on afterlife are not dogmatic: this is personal opinion of the saints or decisions of local councils, which are not obligatory for the whole Church. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

Thank you