EO Arguments Against Sola Scriptura

[Standing Up]

But, in the quote from your post, you seemed to say that Justin stated that Moses hands were outstretched "almost until" evening; yet the quote from Justin did not state that. The almost (whatever it was in the original language in which Justin wrote) was referring to the crucifixion, not Moses. So I am confused by what you mean. And again, the translation says "almost"; what does the original say ?-snip-

"For it was not without design that the prophet Moses, when Hur and Aaron upheld his hands, remained in this form until evening. For indeed the Lord remained upon the tree almost until evening, and they buried Him at eventide; then on the third day He rose again."
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library (chapter XCVII, (97), Dialogue with Trypho)

I'm beginning to repeat myself with this reply, so last time.

Justin says, not without design that Moses remained with hands outstretched until evening. Justin understood and so does the EO that it was a foreshadow of the reality in Christ. But rather than trace the shadow precisely, he alters it with the word "almost". So, instead of seeing the Truth of Christ on the cross with hands outstretched until evening, as God says, Justin adds to the Word and says Christ was on the cross almost until evening.

From "until evening" to "almost until evening", it is a change of Scripture to fit Tradition. It is that simple. Rather than argue about it, if a person might say, hmmm, it is a change, then maybe the NT will become crystal clear and the discrepancies (crucifixion before or after Passover) between the Synoptics and John disappear. Oh, and maybe the Body of Christ might unify over whether or not to use leavened or unleavened bread.

 

[racer]

Yepperz. It is indeed interesting as it what his bro Peter wrote here

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all the letters speaking in them about these-things in which is difficult-to-understand who-any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rests of Writings toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>.

LLOJ,

What version is that? How many of us here in CF do you consider UNlearned and UNsteadfast?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ,

What version is that? How many of us here in CF do you consider UNlearned and UNsteadfast?

According to one CF member awhile back, he referred to it as the "LLOJ Yoda" version ehehe.

These 2 words are only used in the Epistles of my bro Peter so it can be difficult to give an exact english rendering.

And I am not one to judge who is or is not "unlearned and steadfast" as I am but a "disciple/learner" myself.

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all the letters speaking in them about these-things in which is difficult-to-understand who-any which the un-learned/amaqeiV <261> and un-steadfast/asthriktoi <793> are wresting/twisting as also the rests of Writings toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>.

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

Textus Rec.) 2 Peter 3:16 wV kai en pasaiV taiV epistolaiV lalwn en autaiV peri toutwn en oiV estin dusnohta tina a oi amaqeiV kai asthriktoi streblousin wV kai taV loipaV grafaV proV thn idian autwn apwleian

Strong's Number G261 matches the Greek &#7936;&#956;&#945;&#952;&#8053;&#962; (amath&#275;s), which occurs 1 time in 1 verse in the Greek concordance of the KJV
261. amathes am-ath-ace' from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3129; ignorant:--unlearned.

Strong's Number G793 matches the Greek &#7936;&#963;&#964;&#8053;&#961;&#953;&#954;&#964;&#959;&#962; (ast&#275;riktos), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
793. asteriktos as-tay'-rik-tos from 1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of 4741; unfixed, i.e. (figuratively) vacillating:--unstable.

 

[Kristos]

Anyone else find it significant that 2 Thes 2:15 says

So, then brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
​

Amazing he said "by us....our spoken word....or by our letter", now let me ask you, can their spoken word and their letter be contradicting? I say it shouldn't be...so if I chooses to follow the bible using sola scripture, how exactly will that be wrong? They are the letters that they wrote, through the Holy Spirit of course!!!

OK...am I the only one that found that remotely interesting?...yeah...yep...okay.

Nobody has implied that there is ever any contradiction. It's a matter of completeness.

If you were taking a biology course - would you just read the text book or just show up to class? If you wanted to get an A, you would probably do both. Not because one might contradict the other, but because the teacher would cover the information in a way that might relate differently to the material. He might highlight certain things that are important. He might give more detailed instruction on areas that the students find difficult to understand. Does that mean that the text book was not correct? Of course not. Would you skip the lab? There photos in the text book, but unless you actually dissect the frog yourself, your understanding will always be limited to the two dimensional. Does that mean that the 2D contradicts the 3D? Of course not! A 2D print can be dimensioned and used for quality control in a manufacturing process, but if you wanted to design that part into a car, you would need to use 3D.

There is NO contradiction.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by daydreamergurl15 Anyone else find it significant that 2 Thes 2:15 says

So, then brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

Seems as though I recall Jesus mentioning that to one of the Assmblies in Revelation.....Interesting

James 5:8 be ye patient! also stand-fast/sthrixate <4741> the hearts of ye, that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448>

Reve 3:2 Be thou becoming watching! and establish!/sthrixon <4741> (5657) the rest which were about to be dying, for not I have found of thee the works having been filled in view of the God of-Me

 

[Thekla]

"For it was not without design that the prophet Moses, when Hur and Aaron upheld his hands, remained in this form until evening. For indeed the Lord remained upon the tree almost until evening, and they buried Him at eventide; then on the third day He rose again."
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library (chapter XCVII, (97), Dialogue with Trypho)

I'm beginning to repeat myself with this reply, so last time.

Justin says, not without design that Moses remained with hands outstretched until evening. Justin understood and so does the EO that it was a foreshadow of the reality in Christ. But rather than trace the shadow precisely, he alters it with the word "almost". So, instead of seeing the Truth of Christ on the cross with hands outstretched until evening, as God says, Justin adds to the Word and says Christ was on the cross almost until evening.

Your Post, #467:

Justin's Tradition: Moses' hands were up "almost until evening/sunset".

"Until evening" is not the same as "almost until evening"; this is why I am confused. Is it that you mean Justin should have said "until sundown" ?

And we don't know what Justin said yet = just the translator. Or if Justin is "sketching" or not -- I find it difficult to make the accusation of deliberate malfeasance on such limited information.

The Gospels identify Jesus last words at 3 pm, paraskeui, and entombment before the beginning of sabbath (sundown).

From "until evening" to "almost until evening", it is a change of Scripture to fit Tradition. It is that simple. Rather than argue about it, if a person might say, hmmm, it is a change, then maybe the NT will become crystal clear and the discrepancies (crucifixion before or after Passover) between the Synoptics and John disappear. Oh, and maybe the Body of Christ might unify over whether or not to use leavened or unleavened bread.

I don't find (at least per investigation on the crucifixion and burial times) any discrepancy. The EO uses arton, per the Gospels - so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

 

[Standing Up]

Your Post, #467:


"Until evening" is not the same as "almost until evening"; this is why I am confused. Is it that you mean Justin should have said "until sundown" ?

And we don't know what Justin said yet = just the translator. Or if Justin is "sketching" or not -- I find it difficult to make the accusation of deliberate malfeasance on such limited information.

The Gospels identify Jesus last words at 3 pm, paraskeui, and entombment before the beginning of sabbath (sundown).



I don't find (at least per investigation on the crucifixion and burial times) any discrepancy. The EO uses arton, per the Gospels - so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The OT manuscripts and the translations therefrom defined that moment of "until evening" as sunset, the sun going in, sundown. Moses' hands were stretched out until evening/sunset. That is the pattern. This was by design, says Justin. But when he comes to Christ, he does not stay true to the pattern, but says instead, Christ's hands were stretched out almost until evening/sunset.

Really, it's not difficult. I mean we may as well apply your questions about translations to the whole of the Bible and toss the whole thing since we don't know exactly what the originals are. But no, we don't do that. Likewise, it's simple. "Until sunset" is not equal to "almost until sunset".

The NT is clear as well, but let's just get agreement first on "until sunset" is not the same as "almost until sunset".

 

[Standing Up]

Here's Justin from NewAdvent that uses the same word:

For it was not without design that the prophet Moses, when Hur and Aaron upheld his hands, remained in this form until evening. For indeed the Lord remained upon the tree almost until evening, and they buried Him at eventide; then on the third day He rose again.

Clear as crystal. Tradition says death and burial on the same day, so Justin adds the word "almost". Whereas the design is that the hands were up until sunset.

Truth is death on day 1 (on cross until sunset per the design), burial on day 2, resurrection on day 3. Simple.

 

[Thekla]

The OT manuscripts and the translations therefrom defined that moment of "until evening" as sunset, the sun going in, sundown. Moses' hands were stretched out until evening/sunset. That is the pattern. This was by design, says Justin. But when he comes to Christ, he does not stay true to the pattern, but says instead, Christ's hands were stretched out almost until evening/sunset.

Really, it's not difficult. I mean we may as well apply your questions about translations to the whole of the Bible and toss the whole thing since we don't know exactly what the originals are. But no, we don't do that. Likewise, it's simple. "Until sunset" is not equal to "almost until sunset".

The NT is clear as well, but let's just get agreement first on "until sunset" is not the same as "almost until sunset".

I agree, the word "almost" changes the meaning.

The LXX (re: Moses) has - roughly- until sunset. As I said, I don't know if Justin was working from memory, or what he actually says (we only have the translator's words). We also don't know what OT he was using.

I'm not willing to toss out the whole of the Bible, I just think translations are imperfect ... really, a lot cleared up when opsios is explained. We just need to be cognizant that we're using a translation - and some concepts just don't translate. (To translate cultural understandings would greatly increase the length of the English transaltion.)

As far as Christ's hands (well, in Greek xepi means hand and arm inclusive; the whole span) the Gospel accounts have Jesus entombed by sunset. So His hands could not have been stretched out until sunset.

 

[Thekla]

Here's Justin from NewAdvent that uses the same word:

For it was not without design that the prophet Moses, when Hur and Aaron upheld his hands, remained in this form until evening. For indeed the Lord remained upon the tree almost until evening, and they buried Him at eventide; then on the third day He rose again.

Clear as crystal. Tradition says death and burial on the same day, so Justin adds the word "almost".

Truth is death on day 1 (on cross until sunset per the design), burial on day 2, resurrection on day 3. Simple.

I don't find support for your timeline ... sorry

(Actually various translators can maintain the same "mistake"; its because translators often consult other translations of the same piece and/or have the same cultural understanding ...)

 

[Standing Up]

I agree, the word "almost" changes the meaning.

The LXX (re: Moses) has - roughly- until sunset. As I said, I don't know if Justin was working from memory, or what he actually says (we only have the translator's words). We also don't know what OT he was using.

I'm not willing to toss out the whole of the Bible, I just think translations are imperfect ... really, a lot cleared up when opsios is explained. We just need to be cognizant that we're using a translation - and some concepts just don't translate. (To translate cultural understandings would greatly increase the length of the English transaltion.)

As far as Christ's hands (well, in Greek xepi means hand and arm inclusive; the whole span) the Gospel accounts have Jesus entombed by sunset. So His hands could not have been stretched out until sunset.

Great! It changes the meaning. So, why did Justin change the meaning? (Personally, I'd think long and hard about changing God's Word.)

The design/pattern/foreshadow is of Christ on the cross hand/arm stretched out until sunset. Why did Justin change that?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I agree, the word "almost" changes the meaning.

The LXX (re: Moses) has - roughly- until sunset. As I said, I don't know if Justin was working from memory, or what he actually says (we only have the translator's words). We also don't know what OT he was using.
.

At my age, I doubt if I could hold out my arms for more than 10 minutes

Rotherham) Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and Yahweh carried away the sea by a mighty east wind all the night, and turned the sea into dry land,--and the waters were cloven asunder.

Rotherham) Exodus 14:27 So Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea and the sea returned, towards morning, to its steady flow, when the Egyptians, were fleeing to meet it,--thus Yahweh shook off the Egyptians into the midst of the sea;

As far as the LXX rendering, I generally use this site at StudyLight org but would like to know of more LXX sites if anyone knows of them

Interlinear Study Bible on StudyLight.org

 

[Standing Up]

By design: Thus his hands were steady until the sun set.

supported till the going down of the sun.
http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/Exodus/index.htm
this site translates the Septuagint and Masoretic the same

 

[Thekla]

Great! It changes the meaning. So, why did Justin change the meaning? (Personally, I'd think long and hard about changing God's Word.)

The design/pattern/foreshadow is of Christ on the cross hand/arm stretched out until sunset. Why did Justin change that?

Justin (according to the translation):

Moses - until evening (sunset)
Jesus - until almost evening

Justin's account accords for both with the Biblical accounts.

(depending on what word Justin used for what is translated as evening)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Justin (according to the translation):

Moses - until evening (sunset)
Jesus - until almost evening

Justin's account accords for both with the Biblical accounts.

(depending on what word Justin used for what is translated as evening)

Couldn't we start a different thread on this

Exodus 7:1 And YWHW is saying unto Mosheh "see! I give thee as Elohiym to Par`oh and 'Aharown thy brother shall be thy prophet;

Mark 14:53 And they led away the Jesus toward the Chief-priest, and are coming together to Him all the chief-priests, and the elders, and the scribes;

 

[Thekla]

There is a new Breton LXX (Greek and English) online that I bumped into the other day -- I'll have to search for it, though ...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There is a new Breton LXX (Greek and English) online that I bumped into the other day -- I'll have to search for it, though ...

Ahhh thanks!

I am mainly a "hebrew" sort of chap myself but I have used the LXX a few times.
Just a lot of inconsistencies in it from what I have seen.

 

[Standing Up]

Justin (according to the translation):

Moses - until evening (sunset)
Jesus - until almost evening

Justin's account accords for both with the Biblical accounts.

(depending on what word Justin used for what is translated as evening)

Let's assume that maybe, just maybe, I'm not a complete idiot and let's assume that maybe God's design from the OT is exactly what happened in the NT.

We know Justin changed the meaning of the design of God, but was it to account for the NT or for Tradition?

But we can stop here and eventually I'll start a new thread.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Nobody has implied that there is ever any contradiction. It's a matter of completeness.

If you were taking a biology course - would you just read the text book or just show up to class? If you wanted to get an A, you would probably do both. Not because one might contradict the other, but because the teacher would cover the information in a way that might relate differently to the material. He might highlight certain things that are important. He might give more detailed instruction on areas that the students find difficult to understand. Does that mean that the text book was not correct? Of course not. Would you skip the lab? There photos in the text book, but unless you actually dissect the frog yourself, your understanding will always be limited to the two dimensional. Does that mean that the 2D contradicts the 3D? Of course not! A 2D print can be dimensioned and used for quality control in a manufacturing process, but if you wanted to design that part into a car, you would need to use 3D.

There is NO contradiction.

I am not saying that there is a contradiction between following the words of the apostles and the words that is written in doctrine. What I am saying is, just because someone claims something and said "the apostles taught them through traditions of old" should not contradict what is written in the bible. And a lot of the traditions, contradict scripture therefore I choose to follow the only thing I know to be true and anything someone tells me, I compare it to scripture, it if contradicts, I won't follow or believe it.

 

[PassthePeace1]

I am not saying that there is a contradiction between following the words of the apostles and the words that is written in doctrine. What I am saying is, just because someone claims something and said "the apostles taught them through traditions of old" should not contradict what is written in the bible. And a lot of the traditions, contradict scripture therefore I choose to follow the only thing I know to be true and anything someone tells me, I compare it to scripture, it if contradicts, I won't follow or believe it.

Just exactly what Sacred Traditions contradict Sacred Scripture?