EO Arguments Against Sola Scriptura

[Standing Up]

veneration of icons

Okay. Thanks.

I think this goes back to something mentioned earlier about doctrine and whether it was once delivered or developed. RCC and EO believe it developed, although seeds were supposedly there in scripture or early tradition.

I suppose SS believe it was once delivered and didn't develop like Papal Supremacy.

 

[racer]

I don't know any of this, it's what I believe by faith.

So, then you are like all other non-RCs in that you do exercise personal discernment/interpretation in determining what you believe? Cool.

Certainly the HS leads individuals as well, but the real concern here is leadership of the church as the one body of Christ.

But, we won't be judged as one-body in Christ-as a church--we will be judged as individuals. So, personal discernment and interpretation are important factors.

I have not read all of Augustine's works. The few that I have read entirely, I found to be very orthodox. I don't really see the relevance in this line of questions.

The relevance is when someone attempts to discredit a quote from a source and insists that context is essential--that person should at least know the "context" of the assertion he is making.

Infallible interpreter? What does that have to do with what I said?

Well, we're told repeatedly we can't trust our own personal discernment/interpretation when it comes to Scripture. Then we are accused of not being able to discern what "fallible" church fathers taught. It gets old.

 

[Thekla]

Unless, of course, it happens to be an ECF like Augustine, who the EOC apprently contradicts on some teachings.

So, how does the EOC determine what parts of "what it received" to accept?

What has been received and then taught from the beginning. I do admit to not being very knowledgeable on the subject of Augustine, but as he is the example I will try with what I do know as an example.

One issue is on the matter of "grace". In the NT, God (in various ways) is written of both in terms of dynamis and energia. As a rough sketch, dynamis in Greek refers to the 'inherent' power of something. Energia is power (energy), roughly, the dynamis in action or activated in something.
Paul, for example, speaks of the word being received and energised in us.
On the face of it, it seems like an interpretive issue; but it is also a received and experiential teaching. Augustine (again, in my limited understanding) posited that the energia was a creature, not an activation of grace from God in us. This did not match with what was received, taught, and indeed the language of scripture.

Another example concerns the fall. I am not very familiar with Augustine's position on this, but again, there was observed (at least from the EO side) a difference between Augustine's position and what was already received. (A brief summary from the EO side was that Adam voluntarily turned away from God, Who is Life and the giver of life, and thus death was introduced into the world via this fall. From death, comes distortion - the severing of right relationship to God, self, others, and creation. We are no longer our "natural" self. As life is not "inherent" in us, even in our distorted state, God in His mercy gives garments of skin for our protection and - as He is the author of life - sustains us and keeps "knocking".

As to the nuances of Augustine's position, I dare not comment. But there is written evidence of this teaching being 'passed along'. As this understanding (again, per the EO perspective) unlike Augustine's, his teaching on the matter of the fall and original sin is rejected.

Its a bit of a madhouse here, and I do hope (relying on your knowledge of Augustine) that this will give you some basis for comparison. If I may add to this; Origen's early work is accepted. His later work is deemed heretical. What is in accord with what is received is kept. What is not, is not kept. When reading the ECFs, each will typically cite an earlier ECF. This does not give, however the full history. Reading the cited ECF, one will find another citation to an earlier writer.

Finally, as to the matter of "accord", it is determined (in periods of "crisis", ie. heretical teaching is popular, widespread, and cannot be dealt with successfully through less prominent means) by synod and Ecumenical Council. A Council is not determined to be Ecumenical in stature until a subsequent meeting. Thus technically, no Ecumenical Council is called in the EO; they become Ecumenical by later ratification as such.

 

[Thekla]

Originally Posted by Standing Up

The pattern set in Exodus was until sunset. Justin Martyr changes it to almost sunset to follow his Tradition and as a result, folks believe as you say.

There was another Tradition that went through Christ the apostles to bishops like Polycarp, Melito, Polycrates who believed Christ was on the cross until sunset just as OT scripture says. Then they wrote the NT exactly the same.
​

The body was buried within 6 or so hours after death. It is finished Jesus said in the ninth hour/about 3pm. Does the sun set then? No, in Jerusalem at Passover it sets/goes in about 6pm.

As foreshadowed by Moses, Christ was on the cross until evening/sunset/going in of the sun.

But, Justin adds to scripture, saying "almost until evening/sunset". Almost, like 3pm maybe, His hands came down. You know that Tradition.

The tomb was near Golgatha as recorded by scripture. Three hours is not unlikely. One must then decide between agreeing with the Gospel accounts (three of the four are clear), or finding an agreement with the OT.

 

[Thekla]

Okay. Thanks.

I think this goes back to something mentioned earlier about doctrine and whether it was once delivered or developed. RCC and EO believe it developed, although seeds were supposedly there in scripture or early tradition.

I suppose SS believe it was once delivered and didn't develop like Papal Supremacy.

The question of iconography is Incarnational.

 

[Standing Up]

The question of iconography is Incarnational.

Now I don't know what you mean

 

[Standing Up]

The tomb was near Golgatha as recorded by scripture. Three hours is not unlikely. One must then decide between agreeing with the Gospel accounts (three of the four are clear), or finding an agreement with the OT.

Scripture: Moses' hands were up "until evening/sunset"

Justin's Tradition: Moses' hands were up "almost until evening/sunset".

Just look at it like Scripture says, not like Justin's Tradition. God authored the OT and NT; there's not going to be a contradiction between the shadow and reality.

The Gospel says evening had come, which starts Passover (slay the lamb at sunset). Christ partakes, then is arrested, tried, and crucified.

Now, Scripture foreshadowed that He remained there until sunset. And that is what it says. Therefore, the Gospel says evening had come, which starts the first day feast of unleavened bread a high sabbath, Joseph requests the body and buries it.

If you go by Justin's Tradition, you read scripture, evening had come, they eat the Passover, Jesus is arrested, tried, and crucified. And now Tradition, He is taken down and buried before the next evening had come. (We talked about this before; this is why the NIV says that that second "evening had come"-past tense translates it "evening will come"-future tense.). Scripture is plain. Evening had come-death. Hands up until sunset. Evening had come-burial.

 

[Thekla]

Scripture: Moses' hands were up "until evening/sunset"

Justin's Tradition: Moses' hands were up "almost until evening/sunset".

Just look at it like Scripture says, not like Justin's Tradition. God authored the OT and NT; there's not going to be a contradiction between the shadow and reality.

The Gospel says evening had come, which starts Passover (slay the lamb at sunset). Christ partakes, then is arrested, tried, and crucified.

Now, Scripture foreshadowed that He remained there until sunset. And that is what it says. Therefore, the Gospel says evening had come, which starts the first day feast of unleavened bread a high sabbath, Joseph requests the body and buries it.

If you go by Justin's Tradition, you read scripture, evening had come, they eat the Passover, Jesus is arrested, tried, and crucified. And now Tradition, He is taken down and buried before the next evening had come. (We talked about this before; this is why the NIV says that that second "evening had come"-past tense translates it "evening will come"-future tense.). Scripture is plain. Evening had come-death. Hands up until sunset. Evening had come-burial.

Here's the Justin quote again:

"For it was not without design that the prophet Moses, when Hur and Aaron upheld his hands, remained in this form until evening. For indeed the Lord remained upon the tree almost until evening, and they buried Him at eventide; then on the third day He rose again."
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library (chapter XCVII, (97), Dialogue with Trypho)

It reads to me that Moses's hands were up until evening,
Lord on tree til almost evening.

In the LXX, Exodus reads: "... until the descent of the sun."
Masoretic: " ... until sunset."

So I'm not sure what you mean about Justin re: Moses (in bold, above).

I do remember discussing this before, but again I cited John who states that Jesus was entombed on "paraskeui" after 3pm and the sabbath was close. Again, if you are arguing a Thursday crucifixion, the timing takes the entombment beyond the 24 hour limit for Jewish burial.

 

[Thekla]

Now I don't know what you mean

The EO "theology" (sorry, awkward term for EO, maybe) has an "incarnational" focus. This is not meant to devalue the Crucifixion, Resurrection, etc., but all the events of Christ's life and ministry are seen as an integrated whole. They effect each other and as a whole reveal God's plan for us. Anotherwords, we honor the entire "method" through which God willed to effect the offer of salvation to mankind.

The Incarnation reveals Christ with us, Christ among us; it encompasses both the method of Christ with us now and at the end of the age (the Incanation, like the "whole" is eschatological as well as present).

Icons are to some extent "Incarnational". Christ is the image (ikon) of the Father (Who has not been seen) in the flesh (en-fleshed/in-carnate). Thus what can be seen can be depicted. (Ikons of God the Father are not permitted, and the Holy Spirit can only be depicted as He has been seen: form of a dove, form of tongues of flame).

Icons not only exhibit the fact of the Incarnation, but also guard from the view that matter is "evil". God said that creation was good -- which includes matter. It is presently distorted by the fall, but Christ lifted flesh in His Ascension to heaven. The earth will be renewed at the end of the age. And God willed to work through matter - oil, wine, bread, water ... Icons are typically heavily stylised; this is to depict or refocus one to the God-touched or spiritual as opposed to the presently fallen physical reality (the fallen reality is ephemeral; it will pass away). Thus, in this manner, icons are both incarnational and eschatological teachings.

Finally, the iconoclastic crises was actually political; in an effort to mollify the Muslims, an emperor tried to do away with icons. The restoration of icons is a victory of Christianity over those who would overthrow it.

 

[Standing Up]

Here's the Justin quote again:




It reads to me that Moses's hands were up until evening,
Lord on tree til almost evening.

In the LXX, Exodus reads: "... until the descent of the sun."
Masoretic: " ... until sunset."

So I'm not sure what you mean about Justin re: Moses (in bold, above).

Scripture: until evening or sunset or descent of the sun. They are the same.

Justin's Tradtiion: almost until evening or almost until sunset or almost until the descent of the sun.

If Justin had wanted us to understand the phrase as scripture says, he would not have added the word "almost". So, even if scripture says that evening meant 3pm, Justin is saying 2pm. If scripture says 6pm, Justin means 5pm.

I do remember discussing this before, but again I cited John who states that Jesus was entombed on "paraskeui" after 3pm and the sabbath was close. Again, if you are arguing a Thursday crucifixion, the timing takes the entombment beyond the 24 hour limit for Jewish burial.

Died about 3pm Thurs. Hands up to sunset. 6pm sunset (thurs end/fri begins). Burial at latest 9pm on Fri/prep day. 6 elapsed hours. (Keep in mind that the day changes at sunset/evening/6pm. So 9pm Fri is only 3hours into the new day that began at sunset/6pm.)

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Anyone else find it significant that 2 Thes 2:15 says

So, then brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.​

Amazing he said "by us....our spoken word....or by our letter", now let me ask you, can their spoken word and their letter be contradicting? I say it shouldn't be...so if I chooses to follow the bible using sola scripture, how exactly will that be wrong? They are the letters that they wrote, through the Holy Spirit of course!!!

OK...am I the only one that found that remotely interesting?...yeah...yep...okay.

 

[katherine2001]

In defense of St. Augustine and his view of Original Sin, Fr. Thomas Hopko said in one of his recorded lectures on sin that St. Augustine was using a Latin translation that didn't properly translate the verse (evidently, a very important verb in the verse was mistranslated). Evidently, St. Augustine did not know Greek and had to read Latin translations. That might help explain why St. Augustine's view on this is different than the Eastern fathers who knew Greek intimately and used Greek sources. Of course, it often happens in translations that there is no really proper expression in the language that is being translated into that really says it in the same way as it does in the original.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Anyone else find it significant that 2 Thes 2:15 says

So, then brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
​

Amazing he said "by us....our spoken word....or by our letter", now let me ask you, can their spoken word and their letter be contradicting? I say it shouldn't be...so if I chooses to follow the bible using sola scripture, how exactly will that be wrong? They are the letters that they wrote, through the Holy Spirit of course!!!

OK...am I the only one that found that remotely interesting?...yeah...yep...okay.

Yepperz. It is indeed interesting as it what his bro Peter wrote here

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all the letters speaking in them about these-things in which is difficult-to-understand who-any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rests of Writings toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>.

 

[Thekla]

Scripture: until evening or sunset or descent of the sun. They are the same.

Justin's Tradtiion: almost until evening or almost until sunset or almost until the descent of the sun.

Remeber though, some of the accounts say opsios - a time that ranges from three until sunset (after that the time is in "watches"). So toward sunset/almost sunset/opsios are synonomous.

If Justin had wanted us to understand the phrase as scripture says, he would not have added the word "almost". So, even if scripture says that evening meant 3pm, Justin is saying 2pm. If scripture says 6pm, Justin means 5pm.

The question is what is Justin's term in the original language ? What is the usage in his region/profession ? Is he writing as a trained writer (rhetoric/philosophy) or in a more vernacular or relaxed style ? To whom is his piece addressed - does his language deliberately reflect their usage or those from whom he learned the faith ? This is why I asked if the original language was available. These are the sorts of questions that cannot be answered with a quotation from the piece he wrote.

Died about 3pm Thurs. Hands up to sunset. 6pm sunset (thurs end/fri begins). Burial at latest 9pm on Fri/prep day. 6 elapsed hours. (Keep in mind that the day changes at sunset/evening/6pm. So 9pm Fri is only 3hours into the new day that began at sunset/6pm.)

I'm not sure how sunset Thursday until 9pm preparation is 6 hours ?

 

[Standing Up]

Anyone else find it significant that 2 Thes 2:15 says

So, then brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
​

Amazing he said "by us....our spoken word....or by our letter", now let me ask you, can their spoken word and their letter be contradicting? I say it shouldn't be...so if I chooses to follow the bible using sola scripture, how exactly will that be wrong? They are the letters that they wrote, through the Holy Spirit of course!!!

OK...am I the only one that found that remotely interesting?...yeah...yep...okay.

No contradictions.

He is saying 2 things. One he's pointing backward to a completed doctrine to which they should hold tight that was delivered. He's not saying you got some cool new revelation. Two his 'spoken word' is simply his explanation of OT application as it pointed to Christ. For example, Moses hands up foreshadowed Christ's crucifixion.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

No contradictions.

He is saying 2 things. One he's pointing backward to a completed doctrine to which they should hold tight that was delivered. He's not saying you got some cool new revelation. Two his 'spoken word' is simply his explanation of OT application as it pointed to Christ. For example, Moses hands up foreshadowed Christ's crucifixion.

I didn't say they was a contradiction, I mean that their spoken words and their written words should not be a contradiction.
So if someone chooses to go sola scripture, then technically they could live their lives as according to what is called in scripture.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Yepperz. It is indeed interesting as it what his bro Peter wrote here

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all the letters speaking in them about these-things in which is difficult-to-understand who-any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rests of Writings toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>.

 

[Standing Up]

Remeber though, some of the accounts say opsios - a time that ranges from three until sunset (after that the time is in "watches"). So toward sunset/almost sunset/opsios are synonomous.



The question is what is Justin's term in the original language ? What is the usage in his region/profession ? Is he writing as a trained writer (rhetoric/philosophy) or in a more vernacular or relaxed style ? To whom is his piece addressed - does his language deliberately reflect their usage or those from whom he learned the faith ? This is why I asked if the original language was available. These are the sorts of questions that cannot be answered with a quotation from the piece he wrote.

2,000 years of Tradition is tough. So, I'll be blunt. None of what you ask matters. Justin clearly added the word that is translated "almost". If it didn't matter, he wouldn't have said it. But he did in order to adhere to his Tradition. If he adhered to the Tradition from Christ to the apostles to the bishops in Asia Minor Polycarp, Melito, and Polycrates, he would not have had to add to Scripture.

If scripture says Jesus died at 3pm, Justin says almost 3pm. If scripture says on the cross until sunset, Justin says almost until sunset.

Here's NT:

Mk. 1:32 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

That was Mark agreeing with the OT definition of evening.

Mk. 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. (to eat Passover. arrested at midnight. tried in the morning. crucified and dies at 3pm).

Hands up until sunset, so a new day has begun from Thurs Passover to Friday preparation/high sabbath.

Mk. 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, (Joseph requests body, Pilate has to make sure He is dead, grants body, Joseph and Nicodemus prepare it, and bury it.)

I'm not sure how sunset Thursday until 9pm preparation is 6 hours ?

Christ died on the cross at 3pm Thursday. His hands were up until sunset at 6pm. That is three hours. Thursday ends now and Friday begins (a Jewish day changes at sunset). Joseph requests body. 1st watch is 3 hours later. Total is maximum 6 hours from death to burial.

 

[Standing Up]

I didn't say they was a contradiction, I mean that their spoken words and their written words should not be a contradiction.
So if someone chooses to go sola scripture, then technically they could live their lives as according to what is called in scripture.

Yep, no contradictions

 

[Thekla]

2,000 years of Tradition is tough. So, I'll be blunt. None of what you ask matters. Justin clearly added the word that is translated "almost". If it didn't matter, he wouldn't have said it. But he did in order to adhere to his Tradition. If he adhered to the Tradition from Christ to the apostles to the bishops in Asia Minor Polycarp, Melito, and Polycrates, he would not have had to add to Scripture.

But, in the quote from your post, you seemed to say that Justin stated that Moses hands were outstretched "almost until" evening; yet the quote from Justin did not state that. The almost (whatever it was in the original language in which Justin wrote) was referring to the crucifixion, not Moses. So I am confused by what you mean. And again, the translation says "almost"; what does the original say ?

If scripture says Jesus died at 3pm, Justin says almost 3pm. If scripture says on the cross until sunset, Justin says almost until sunset.

Evening/opsios is from 3 pm til sunset. Here again I am confused; I quoted the verses (including John, apparently from whom Polycarp got his information) - they all say finished at 3 (9th hour). The 9th hour is the beginning of the time period opsios. I then referenced passages in the Gospel where (in a single event account) opsios is used for the full range of time (3 pm - sunset). After sunset is niktos and the time is recorded in "watches" (1st, 2cnd, 3rd, and 4th watch) - as in the Gospel account referenced.

Here's NT:

Mk. 1:32 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

Yup, as I said the particular portion of opsios/opsias (as in the scriptures I referenced) is given a further description where a particular portion of opsios is meant.

That was Mark agreeing with the OT definition of evening.

Take a look at John 6:16-17, opsios is used in both verses and covers a span of time. The second mention, later on chronologically, opsios is described as now dark.

Then, in Matthew:
14:15 - 23 ( a long span of time) opsios is used in verse 15 and again in verse 23 [this is the account of feeding the 5,000]. Then, note that when nightime (niktos) is referenced in verse 25, the time is recorded by "watches" (here the fourth watch).

Mk. 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. (to eat Passover. arrested at midnight. tried in the morning. crucified and dies at 3pm).

So which part of the opsias (aprox. 6 hours) is meant here ?

Hands up until sunset, so a new day has begun from Thurs Passover to Friday preparation/high sabbath.

But again, the "hours" refer to the daytime, the "watches" to the nightime.
(The twelfth hour is 6 pm til sundown; opsios/opsias covers the 9th through twelfth hour. The watches start at sundown and end with the ending of the 4th watch at sunrise; midnight is the 3rd watch). So, I am having a difficulty following what exactly your count is.

Mk. 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, (Joseph requests body, Pilate has to make sure He is dead, grants body, Joseph and Nicodemus prepare it, and bury it.)

This is opsios again; a six hour span which is not further narrowed to which part of opsios. (See Matthean pasages and those form John, above, for the narrowing applied to the span called opsios.)

Matthew (27):
opsios again, no narrowing

Luke 23:54

Joseph requests the body and entombs on the day of preparation as sabbath (beginning of sabbath) is coming on.

John 19: 42
entombment on paraskeui (nearing the sabbath, ie sunset)

Christ died on the cross at 3pm Thursday. His hands were up until sunset at 6pm. That is three hours. Thursday ends now and Friday begins (a Jewish day changes at sunset). Joseph requests body. 1st watch is 3 hours later. Total is maximum 6 hours from death to burial.

I'm sorry, I don't understand how you derive this. I hope the above will help to explain at least why I don't understand what you mean.

Just to clarify:
opsios/opsias - 3 pm until sundown (9th hour until twelfth hour)

Do you mean that Josephus requests the body at our time after 6 pm (after the twelfth hour, during the first watch) ?

How does this correlate with the testimony in the Gospel of John (entombment on preparation/pareskeui as sabbath is nearing)
and the Gospel of Luke (entombment on preparation/paraskeui, when sabbath is nearing) ?