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All Becomes New

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Thank you. This has been most helpful. The question that remains for me is what is the cause for this belief? If Christ is in fact born of a virgin Mary, then simply because it is a mystery isn't "enough" to justify it as a belief. This goes for Christ's miracles and resurrection from the dead as well, so as to paint a picture of Christ's entire life pertaining to His ministry. The question for cause is that deferring to these things as mere mystery and not explicitly as an Act of God insofar as they are a work of God in the supernatural that defies our natural understanding is paramount to my inquiry here. I would also aim this same comment at @ArmyMatt so as to show a demonstration of knowing the what of the belief of the EO church and not just shooting questions from the hip.
 
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ArmyMatt

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yes, it's literal.
 
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ArmyMatt

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then you would also have to get rid of the 6th and 7th Councils (the one that called Nyssa the Father of Fathers) since that one affirms the 5th as true. you don't get to pick and choose.

to say that St Justinian wasn't a theologian just shows an ignorance of his theological writings.
 
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ArmyMatt

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what exactly do you want to know?
 
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ArmyMatt

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personally, I don't think you do extensive research. for the umpteenth time, APOKATASTASIS IS NOT THE PROBLEM, it's how Origen understood it that's the problem. St Maximos the confessor affirms it (who also rejected Origen's understanding).

we have been through this before, a LOT.
 
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Light of the East

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Do you want to discuss with me or do you want to act like a Protestant and just throw quotes at me?
 
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Light of the East

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Yes, we have Father, and I reject the last definition which you gave me in which , if I remember correctly, you define Apokatastasis as God will bring all back to Him through the Cross, but there will be people who will nonetheless suffer eternally because they will not repent (or cannot repent).

To me, that is not Universal Restoration if there are still souls suffering. Origen's ideas of Apokatastasis were attached to some rather bizzare ideas about the form of that restoration and how it takes place. For instance, he claimed that the restoation to the state of pre-existent souls souls would be in the form of spherical bodies. One wonders where he got that idea. He had some strange and bizarre theologumenon for a man who was otherwise regarded as a brilliant expositor of the Bible.

As for the "extensive" research, I guess that depends on how we define extensive, doesn't it? I think I have read a lot more on this subject, including all the canons of the 5th, 6th, and 7th councils, than most folks.

There is one difference between our undersanding - you take the Thomist view that once dead, souls are locked into their state, whatever that is. I do not, and I believe that God is able to bring about their conversion without the violation of their wills.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Do you want to discuss with me or do you want to act like a Protestant and just throw quotes at me?

on this issue, I am sorry to say, there is no real discussion.
 
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ArmyMatt

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your problem is no one cares about your opinion. whether or not you think it's an actual restoration is irrelevant, since you are not even Orthodox yet. so you are in no position to say what we believe.

as for your research, you might know more than most, but you don't know more than us. and there is a whole lot more than the Synods that have been quoted in these threads.

and lastly, no, I do not take the Thomist stance. I do not believe that once souls are dead they are locked in place. I have, in the past quoted from Sts Mark of Ephesus, Xenia of St Petersburg, and Joseph the hesychast that refute this point of yours.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Do you want to discuss with me or do you want to act like a Protestant and just throw quotes at me?

I want to make it clear that I have nothing against you. God Bless You. I think that you're a great poster.

On this particular subject though, all I can do is post and quote what The Councils and Holy Fathers have already said.

As an Orthodox Christian I must affirm The decrees of The Councils and Holy Fathers.




Now, with all that being said I hope that Origen is in Heaven and I like him as human being.


.
 
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Light of the East

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QUOTE="ArmyMatt

Your problem is no one cares about your opinion. whether or not you think it's an actual restoration is irrelevant, since you are not even Orthodox yet. so you are in no position to say what we believe.

as for your research, you might know more than most, but you don't know more than us. and there is a whole lot more than the Synods that have been quoted in these threads.

and lastly, no, I do not take the Thomist stance. I do not believe that once souls are dead they are locked in place. I have, in the past quoted from Sts Mark of Ephesus, Xenia of St Petersburg, and Joseph the hesychast that refute this point of yours.

If this is so, then there should be hope that God can restore all. I would think this is pretty black/white. Either people are locked in place, or they are capable of repenting.

However, I do think I remember you telling me that once the Judgment is over, then they are locked in place, right?
 
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Light of the East

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QUOTE="Jude1:3Contendforthefaith,

I want to make it clear that I have nothing against you. God Bless You. I think that you're a great poster.

Thank you for those kind words. They are appreciated.

On this particular subject though, all I can do is post and quote what The Councils and Holy Fathers have already said.

As an Orthodox Christian I must affirm The decrees of The Councils and Holy Fathers.

I understand. I agree, for to do otherwise would make you some form of Protestant. My concern here is the discovery of issues which bring the 14 Anathemas of Justinian into question.

Now, with all that being said I hope that Origen is in Heaven and I like him as human being.



.
 
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ArmyMatt

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people aren't capable of repenting after death. however, God can save folks through His Church after their death, and the Church prays for everyone. this is the Church's mission until Judgment Day, when Christ returns. so it is entirely possible that on that day, we see that everyone is on God's right hand. that is something to hope for and we should rejoice if that comes to pass.

however, it is possible for people to end up on the left hand as well, and if they are damned, it's because it's their choice to be.
 
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All Becomes New

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what exactly do you want to know?

Mostly what you have already answered, namely, that although EO don't think Christ's birth, ministry, and resurrection as less than symbolic, they still do see the symbolism in such things. So it is not as though it is ONLY symbolic, but that the symbolism is just as important as the literal in the case of such. Do I have that right? It has been pretty crazy trying to figure this all out.
 
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ArmyMatt

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we believe it's true if it points you to Christ, it's true. if it's literal, symbolic, or both.
 
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All Becomes New

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we believe it's true if it points you to Christ, it's true. if it's literal, symbolic, or both.

So, in a manner of speaking, "Whatever brings you to Christ is good?" IDK how I feel about that. I was brought to Christ through an experience I can't make heads or tails of, but it lead me to the Bible and it lead me here, in a manner of speaking.
 
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ArmyMatt

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So, in a manner of speaking, "Whatever brings you to Christ is good?" IDK how I feel about that. I was brought to Christ through an experience I can't make heads or tails of, but it lead me to the Bible and it lead me here, in a manner of speaking.

you having an experience doesn't conflict with what I said.
 
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All Becomes New

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you having an experience doesn't conflict with what I said.

It could if you knew the nature of the experience. Sure, it lead me to the Bible, but there are some things about this experience that might make it look ridiculous or down right blasphemous. If you would like to know more about it, send me a PM. These things should not be discussed in the public. I would be happy to talk to you about them in private though. This experiences radically changed my life and it was larger than life. If you would like to discuss it cool, if not, that is cool as well.
 
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ArmyMatt

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we can discuss it privately if you like, but just because it seems blasphemous or weird, that doesn't mean it wasn't from Christ.
 
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All Becomes New

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we can discuss it privately if you like, but just because it seems blasphemous or weird, that doesn't mean it wasn't from Christ.

I agree all things come by the Lordship of Christ, but it remains to be see that all things are "Good" as far as we would understand them. Not to say we need to set up categories of good and bad arbitrarily, but surely it is easy to see some things are Good and some things are not on the face of it. I say this because if there are "degrees" of Good and Evil (Bad) then surely somethings are "Good" and some things "lack Goodness" as far as a quality of them is concerned. As far as how this relates to my experience, I really couldn't say. Perhaps you would be willing to walk me through it a bit? I find you to be of respectable character so I wouldn't mind discussing it with you.
 
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