Entitlement, Free Will and Despair.

[Tristan Johan]

The despair I feel comes from my clinically diagnosed depression, and is helped along in no small part by the problems I see in this world, and anger over "The problem of Evil."

In discussions about The Problem of Evil (TPoE) I have seen the Free Will notion brought up, but I was disappointed when it was being discussed here when I talked about my Depression and many other disorders effectively serving as sabotage to the mechanism of my ability to effectively exercise my Free Will. My disappointment came from seeing how Free Will is something that Christians do not agree on. This didn't help me, spiritually, because I felt left more disillusioned, and I ended up with more reasons to feel disappointment and anger toward God.

Here is something about Depression that makes me angry: It skews my perception of the world, makes me have to fight against a predisposition toward negativity, and negative thinking. I am angry that it is the source of suicidal thoughts. I am angry that it leaves me feeling occasionally that I never wanted to live! I find this an unacceptable condition, and it is hard to fight against the feeling that I am entitled to demand better from God. Except that I know that God and humans alike scoff at notions of entitlement; intellectually I know it's a raw impulsive feeling.

Still, I'm kind of in a place where I can't believe the nerve of God or anyone acting on God or Christianity's behalf suggesting that I owe God worship, praise and love. Does God feel entitled to this from me? I have a hard time reconciling God's sense of entitlement (from a deity who doesn't need anything because He already has everything He needs) with my own desire and need to be able to function in simple ways denied to me and made worse by the unfolding narrative of my life. He's entitled, while lacking for nothing; while I am entitled to nothing.

I understand that I am entitled to nothing. Yet, and I'll put this in a more pure form of thought, why should God demand that I should be grateful for my life, when I never wanted to live?!

Please, if you have thoughts on this, share them in your own words. If you bring in Bible verse, could you just paraphrase your own thought and only give me the Chapter and Verse reference so I can look it up on my own? Thank you. Hope everyone is doing well, even God, despite my seething anger at Him.

 

[Faulty]

Do you think the God who created you has any pleasure in finding you in this condition?

He created you to show you His good pleasure forever (read Ephesians 2:1-10). He created you for fellowship. He created you to be a child to Him.

He didn't need worshippers. The nature of a regenerated man is to worship God, it is true, but it's not out of obligation, but rather out of desire. As a small child runs to meet his daddy when he gets home from work with a joyful heart to see him once again, so is the nature of a child of God. We do what we do because we desire to be near Him. Another man's child would not run up to this man in joy, because his heart belongs to someone else, but if he's forced to embrace the man, he will despise him for it.

You turn to him and away from the sin that has your heart, and be forgiven and reconciled to Him,through the finished work of Jesus on your behalf, His death in your place and esurrection from the dead, and you too will be His child and your worship will be genuine and bring you much joy.

 

[elman]

The despair I feel comes from my clinically diagnosed depression, and is helped along in no small part by the problems I see in this world, and anger over "The problem of Evil."

In discussions about The Problem of Evil (TPoE) I have seen the Free Will notion brought up, but I was disappointed when it was being discussed here when I talked about my Depression and many other disorders effectively serving as sabotage to the mechanism of my ability to effectively exercise my Free Will. My disappointment came from seeing how Free Will is something that Christians do not agree on. This didn't help me, spiritually, because I felt left more disillusioned, and I ended up with more reasons to feel disappointment and anger toward God.

Here is something about Depression that makes me angry: It skews my perception of the world, makes me have to fight against a predisposition toward negativity, and negative thinking. I am angry that it is the source of suicidal thoughts. I am angry that it leaves me feeling occasionally that I never wanted to live! I find this an unacceptable condition, and it is hard to fight against the feeling that I am entitled to demand better from God. Except that I know that God and humans alike scoff at notions of entitlement; intellectually I know it's a raw impulsive feeling.

Still, I'm kind of in a place where I can't believe the nerve of God or anyone acting on God or Christianity's behalf suggesting that I owe God worship, praise and love. Does God feel entitled to this from me? I have a hard time reconciling God's sense of entitlement (from a deity who doesn't need anything because He already has everything He needs) with my own desire and need to be able to function in simple ways denied to me and made worse by the unfolding narrative of my life. He's entitled, while lacking for nothing; while I am entitled to nothing.

I understand that I am entitled to nothing. Yet, and I'll put this in a more pure form of thought, why should God demand that I should be grateful for my life, when I never wanted to live?!

Please, if you have thoughts on this, share them in your own words. If you bring in Bible verse, could you just paraphrase your own thought and only give me the Chapter and Verse reference so I can look it up on my own? Thank you. Hope everyone is doing well, even God, despite my seething anger at Him.

If your doctor is unable to help you, perhaps you should try a different doctor.

 

[Tnmusicman]

I also deal with depression but mine is due to chronic pain from a genetic arthritis called Ankylosing Spondilitus. Being in constant pain is a pretty good reason to be a bit mift with God plus not knowing the cause for years and when I would tell others about my condition I would get " you're too young to have that". Sometimes it would be docters that either didn't believe me or didn't seem to care that much. Point is I was unhappy with God for a very long time and eventually that anger turned to indifference, which was a real weird place to be. I had been mad at God so long I just became "eh,whatever" when family or friends would remind me of Gods love for me.
I wish there was an easy feel-good answer for you but there just isn't. It's unfortunate that we live In a world where the good people sometimes hurt the most. I suppose the knowledge of the christian,that this world isn't it for us,should be of some comfort. I know that isn't the way it works,though. If you haven't already seen this ladies blog I think you will find that she and you have similar situations.
Grateful and Depressed? You Can Be Both - Beyond Blue[bless and do not curse]

 

[Tnmusicman]

I also deal with depression but mine is due to chronic pain from a genetic arthritis called Ankylosing Spondilitus. Being in constant pain is a pretty good reason to be a bit mift with God plus not knowing the cause for years and when I would tell others about my condition I would get " you're too young to have that". Sometimes it would be docters that either didn't believe me or didn't seem to care that much. Point is I was unhappy with God for a very long time and eventually that anger turned to indifference, which was a real weird place to be. I had been mad at God so long I just became "eh,whatever" when family or friends would remind me of Gods love for me.
I wish there was an easy feel-good answer for you but there just isn't. It's unfortunate that we live In a world where the good people sometimes hurt the most. I suppose the knowledge of the christian,that this world isn't it for us,should be of some comfort. I know that isn't the way it works,though. If you haven't already seen this ladies blog I think you will find that she and you have similar situations.
Grateful and Depressed? You Can Be Both - Beyond Blue[bless and do not curse]

 

[salida]

Worship is loving God. He loves you-why not love him back?

 

[bling]

If you think this world is to be a “happy” place or that all Christians are “happy” people, you are wrong. Christ was not “happy” even with His disciples, but did have “joy”. How could any true Christian be “happy”, when he is intentionally surrounded by needy hurting people?

This world is the best it can be to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective, but that means lots of “tragedies, sin, evil, hardship and Satan running around.”

If you need to blame someone for this world, blame me (not God), because it is I that need lots of “opportunities” around me to experience God’s Love, see true Christians extending Godly type Love to others, accept God’s Love, extend God’s Love and grow the Godly love that I do have. It is easy for me to be lazy and sit around withering away.

Our rest comes later when we go home.

 

[drich0150]

Two things
Free will is not unchallenged choice. It is the ability to sin

and How do you know you never wanted to live? We don't know and the bible doesn't say what we were before we were born. We all could have elected to have been born in one way or another. how do you know you don't just hate life because you are not getting what you want, and want to blame God for anything and everything you can?

 

[juvenissun]

I understand that I am entitled to nothing. Yet, and I'll put this in a more pure form of thought, why should God demand that I should be grateful for my life, when I never wanted to live?!

To have a life is to have an opportunity. If you don't want it, that is your choice. But given you an opportunity is something to be thankful.

An analogy is: I have a winning lotto ticket for you. You can take it, or you "never want it". Either way, you have this chance to have it. Would you at least say a thank you to me?

Life is a winning lotto ticket. You don't know how much does it worth. But it worths something yet to be discovered.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi Tristan, I will address what you say in detail because I too have suffered from depression and have been redeemed from it by combination of positive influence (a tutor once showed me how to think positively), as well as medication, as well as the relationship I have with Jesus Christ. I now think so differently about life that I could not fall into the same depression that I once felt so negative for. So I want to help you break those chains, and I believe it is only going to happen if you have the right life experiences that will shape you into a happier person. So you have to be proactive and really actively get to the bottom of it, because there is something wrong with you if you don't enjoy life. So many people do enjoy life and if they only knew that God was knowable they would want to love Him with all their heart. Some people do achieve that relationship through Jesus, what makes you think you are so different from them that you can't enjoy life? If there is something wrong with your life you should investigate how to fix it because you only get this life once, you may as well enjoy it as much as you can.

The despair I feel comes from my clinically diagnosed depression, and is helped along in no small part by the problems I see in this world, and anger over "The problem of Evil."

So are you receiving treatment for your depression? It is important to engage in counseling as well as medication. The best counselor is God. Jesus said "I will send The Holy Spirit who will teach you and remind you of everything I have said". If you want that gift, you only need to ask Jesus for it and agree to follow His instructions.

In discussions about The Problem of Evil (TPoE) I have seen the Free Will notion brought up, but I was disappointed when it was being discussed here when I talked about my Depression and many other disorders effectively serving as sabotage to the mechanism of my ability to effectively exercise my Free Will. My disappointment came from seeing how Free Will is something that Christians do not agree on. This didn't help me, spiritually, because I felt left more disillusioned, and I ended up with more reasons to feel disappointment and anger toward God.

This is why you need The Holy Spirit, because you are trying to look at the truth through a perspective presented through a fellow human being. There is a communication problem with humans, that we can never relate an idea 100%, it actually takes hard work to share a thought. But with God there is no such barrier, He can show you what He wants you to know just by you listening to Him. Do you realize that God speaks through the bible? Do you ever feel a sort of defensiveness when reading the bible? That is very common, and is what it means to harden your heart against God. He doesn't speak in booming thunder to make you listen, but He speaks in clear terms directly to your conscience when you read. It may take a bit of practice to feel comfortable with His voice, but once you realize that He speaks only to improve you, there is really nothing to fear by listening to Him. Give it a go, just pray to God "Please show me something I need to know", then open the bible and read until you get that enlightenment. It is written that God rewards those who diligently seek Him. If you seriously do that with your whole heart and devote yourself to learning from Him, then I expect that He will heal your depression. God loves His children most dearly, if you want His love you only need to pursue it diligently.

Here is something about Depression that makes me angry: It skews my perception of the world, makes me have to fight against a predisposition toward negativity, and negative thinking. I am angry that it is the source of suicidal thoughts. I am angry that it leaves me feeling occasionally that I never wanted to live! I find this an unacceptable condition, and it is hard to fight against the feeling that I am entitled to demand better from God.

Well guess what, your depression is not given to you by God! You have inherited this negative mindset from chemicals in your lifestyle and bad influence in your life! These factors are due to irresponsible human behavior. The good news is that you don't need to be like that.

Except that I know that God and humans alike scoff at notions of entitlement; intellectually I know it's a raw impulsive feeling.

Well no I do believe that we are entitled to a good life, because fundamentally there is plenty of resource in the world to satisfy all our needs. However, there is a very evil regime in our civilization which takes from some and gives to others those basic entitlements that we all need. This is sin, and until Jesus finally rules the world with the saints, we just have to do our best to get through life. The good part of this is that there is a perfect world to look forward to, and that is what we Christians do. We don't set our sights on what the world can offer, we instead focus on what Jesus requires of us.

Still, I'm kind of in a place where I can't believe the nerve of God or anyone acting on God or Christianity's behalf suggesting that I owe God worship, praise and love. Does God feel entitled to this from me?

I don't think He expects you to love Him because He loves you and He knows full well the reasons you have to not love Him. However, if you take the right steps to resolving your depression then you may come to love life, and then it would be natural to want to thank the one who designed life, because being alive is better than being dust.

I have a hard time reconciling God's sense of entitlement (from a deity who doesn't need anything because He already has everything He needs) with my own desire and need to be able to function in simple ways denied to me and made worse by the unfolding narrative of my life. He's entitled, while lacking for nothing; while I am entitled to nothing.

This is not true. You are making excuses for yourself. No-one is going to knock on your door and say "Hi, let me make your life better". You have to do that for yourself. Identify the problems in your life, make plans for how to resolve them. Identify what you enjoy doing in life, find an occupation that depends on those talents, and study to become a professional. If you love your job and you have nothing to hate about life, your depression will dissolve because you won't have anything to feel negative about.

I understand that I am entitled to nothing. Yet, and I'll put this in a more pure form of thought, why should God demand that I should be grateful for my life, when I never wanted to live?!

I mentioned before that I don't think God would expect you to feel grateful for life since He loves you and understands how you have got to be in the situation you are in. It is just a terrible result of sin. However, you can't blame anyone but yourself if you don't take action. You can be happy if you pick the right path. Think wisely. Be constructive. Don't pout. Get pragmatic. Follow my advice: eliminate things you hate about life, get a rewarding career. It may take a few years to dig your way out of the hole you are in, but get started right away because the sooner you begin the sooner the plan will blossom.

Please, if you have thoughts on this, share them in your own words. If you bring in Bible verse, could you just paraphrase your own thought and only give me the Chapter and Verse reference so I can look it up on my own? Thank you. Hope everyone is doing well, even God, despite my seething anger at Him.

Don't blame God for what others have done. It is not His fault. Sin has already entered the world and as long as there are people who tend to sin (which is everyone), then sin will continue to be a problem. He has already done what was necessary to save those that would be saved, it is now up to you whether you want to love sin or whether you want to be part of His holy nation. Please respond, let me know whether you still want to blame God or whether you are going to be a grown-up and take charge of your own life. Think about the fact that there are people dying of starvation and worse, yet they still love life. So depression is really not God's fault, it is just an unfortunate circumstance that you find yourself in. You can break free

 

[elman]

Psalm 17:15
New International Version (NIV)

15 As for me, I will be vindicated and will see your face;
when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness.
:

I see in your tag the words in heaven added after when I awake.
I think that is what is meant, but not what is said.

 

[oi_antz]

I see in your tag the words in heaven added after when I awake.
I think that is what is meant, but not what is said.

Thanks Elman! I really love the 1971 Living Bible because it reads so nice. Unfortunately as an immature paraphrased version, there are parts where it is a bit controversial. I looked into it, you are right that the original scripture does not say that.

Here is how it is written in The Living Bible:

Psalms 17:15
But as for me, my contentment is not in wealth but in seeing you and knowing all is well between us. And when I awake in heaven, I will be fully satisfied, for I will see you face to face.

Here is how it is written in the interlinear translation:

I in-righteousness I-shall-perceive faces-of-you I-shal-be-satisfied in-to-awake-of representation-of you

This is my favorite, it is the King James translation:

As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

I am now going to change my signature to use the KJV, thanks!

 

[Tristan Johan]

Do you think the God who created you has any pleasure in finding you in this condition?

I honestly get the impression he doesn't care, given the people he sends my way, and the circumstances that unfold in my life.

As a small child runs to meet his daddy when he gets home from work with a joyful heart to see him once again, so is the nature of a child of God. We do what we do because we desire to be near Him. Another man's child would not run up to this man in joy, because his heart belongs to someone else, but if he's forced to embrace the man, he will despise him for it.

I sort of follow, but I'm also confused. He always seems to claim He's the father of everybody, whether they accept him or not. A good human father is going to treat his children as equally as possible, whether respected or not. God is supposed to be better than all humans, which would mean that He would be a good living example by providing a good balance of opportunity, capabilities and empowerment before we respect Him, but we are not treated equally; and the message that is communicated to use is predominantly that we have to accept him first. There is not equivalency in opportunity and capabilities and the empowerment that God is supposed to provide. I would suggest that God should refine his message, provide a clear and honest answer that is not messed up by well meaning but human followers, but He doesn't seem to be receptive to constructive criticism, His cited Holy Perfection always seems to be a roadblock.

If your doctor is unable to help you, perhaps you should try a different doctor.

My insurance has run out. My jobs are alarmingly part-time, making it difficult to pay for a doctor. I continue job hunting. The job hunt is made more difficult by my struggle to stay focused. The other day, in the library, my efforts focused on getting through a real bear of an application, fighting off an almost physically tangible distractability. And what help did He give, whether I asked it or not, while I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing? I was hindered, the distractability was noticeably worse that I've experienced in the past. I'm not trying to defy Him, but I do expect the basic ability to function day-to-day, so what was the point of Him in the midst of my efforts to break a downward spiral?

I also deal with depression but mine is due to chronic pain from a genetic arthritis called Ankylosing Spondilitus. Being in constant pain is a pretty good reason to be a bit mift with God plus not knowing the cause for years and when I would tell others about my condition I would get " you're too young to have that". Sometimes it would be docters that either didn't believe me or didn't seem to care that much. Point is I was unhappy with God for a very long time and eventually that anger turned to indifference, which was a real weird place to be. I had been mad at God so long I just became "eh,whatever" when family or friends would remind me of Gods love for me.

I wish there was an easy feel-good answer for you but there just isn't. It's unfortunate that we live In a world where the good people sometimes hurt the most. I suppose the knowledge of the christian,that this world isn't it for us,should be of some comfort. I know that isn't the way it works,though. If you haven't already seen this ladies blog I think you will find that she and you have similar situations.

A lot of this post was helpful, I appreciate the honesty. I am kind of the place of feeling, "Eh, whatever" about God, because He seems more unreliable than me, and I've had to cope with some cold hard truth about how unreliable I am, being careful about dealing with people inclined to trust me.

I only glanced at the link you provided, but it makes me ill to be consumed with depression and be asked by others to be grateful. I kind of feel like I won't accept a human's appeal that I should be grateful to God. I feel like it's between Him and me. I'm sure He can work with those ground rules. I'm leaving the door open, but I don't want a human to walk through, or even God in the form of a burning bush. Opportunity for being able to be self-sufficient would be fine. I don't even feel like I need to be Happy, I will settle for Neutral as an alternative to suicidal depression. That might be nice. But I'm afraid I don't trust Him, and as one of my Christian friends has said, "We withdraw our trust in someone or something when we have clear evidence that it's not being validated as a worthy investment." What else did He expect was going to happen?

Worship is loving God. He loves you-why not love him back?

This doesn't feel like love, it feels pretty clearly like neglect. At this juncture in my life, I have decided on a way that I would choose to love God, given the opportunity. I would place his sentience in a brain that has clinical depression, anxiety, obsessiveness, a debilitating level of distraction, and an impairment with the way His brain processes what He hears. I would make sure that world around Him is just as confusing as it is now, and I would send Him friends that obsess about Me, and tell Him that I'm just trying to love Him. I would not send Him to Hell, whether He accepted me or rejected me, despite the message of the world I would have sent Him to live in. I'm not trying to say this to be mean, and I honestly hope that it would be a learning experience for me, I have no idea what the experience would be for Him.

Don't blame God for what others have done. It is not His fault.

At this point, I don't feel too preoccupied with who or what deserves the blame. I would like to see God open up, even if He must do it in mysterious and infuriatingly subtle ways. We humans have developed a fairly lofty standard of ethics and morality, which God claims to be perfect at. One of the things that is a part of that is the notion that "To do nothing in the face of evil is also a form of evil." Is it true? Or is that something that only humans made up? It's a pretty demanding standard. I would like to know if God thinks it's a true standard, and if it's His example, does He claim to perfectly follows it, or alternatively come out and tell us, "It's an unrealistic standard that you've come up with, it's a great guideline to aspire to, but you guys are very hard on yourselves." Or even, "I'm God, so it doesn't apply to me; and also by the way I'm perfect." If all His followers aren't doing enough, doesn't that contradict that accepting Him and Jesus really creates a legitimate spiritual change within a person? Why not send that extra spiritual fuel at those critical moments, empower His followers in order to change the balance in the world toward a more positive direction? Why not empower all of us, while He's at it? As a good human father would do?

 

[oi_antz]

Why not send that extra spiritual fuel at those critical moments, empower His followers in order to change the balance in the world toward a more positive direction?

I do believe He does, and if you aren't experiencing that then it is something you need to take up with Him. There are many people however who would rather not be empowered because they enjoy sin so much. Jesus said a famous line "why do you look at the splinter in your brother's eye when there is a plank in your own? First you must remove the plank from your own eye then you will see clear enough to help your brother with his splinter". That act of removing the plank from our own eye is often not as attractive as sin, and you'll notice this by observing all the sin among Christians. I can tell you that He does empower us and I can testify of my own experiences, so I doubt it is God's fault that you feel powerless. In fact from your response it sounds like you are content to feel sorry for yourself.

I am kind of the place of feeling, "Eh, whatever" about God, because He seems more unreliable than me, and I've had to cope with some cold hard truth about how unreliable I am, being careful about dealing with people inclined to trust me.

He's not unreliable, but His yes is yes and His no is no. If you need His help, you should be asking for it in a much more pleasant way. You remind me of another poster who came along this forum expecting God to jump through hoops. That's not exactly the kind of relationship God wants to have with us.

I should encourage you to think about that actually. Think about putting yourself in Gods position and instead of thinking how bad your life is, consider what God might be thinking about the way you regard Him. What would make God want to call you His child? What about you might displease God? What are you doing that breaks His heart? What is His ultimate desire for you? How can He show you what it means to love Him, if you just keep blaming Him for things you don't like?

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

Notice the words "if anyone hears my voice". This means that not everyone hears Jesus' voice! Perhaps this is something you should pray about, because I trust that if you heard Jesus and followed Him, He would lead you to the green pasture.

I would suggest that God should refine his message, provide a clear and honest answer that is not messed up by well meaning but human followers, but He doesn't seem to be receptive to constructive criticism, His cited Holy Perfection always seems to be a roadblock.

The message is clear, it is obfuscated by humans and demons. If you want to see the message clearly you will have to look at it in the same way as the people who declared it, that being the prophets of God and Jesus Christ. That means you need to stop thinking about yourself and begin thinking in the same way God thinks:

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]

But we have the mind of Christ

"The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things" - that is what the mind does, it makes judgments. Those who are spiritually dead cannot make judgments about spiritual matters, they are puppets to the spirits. That's where you are at in terms of your depression, you are being tossed to and fro by demons who want to kill you.

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?” - This is where you are going wrong. You are trying to tell Jesus that He is wrong. Jesus wants to tell you where you are wrong, and how you can be put right, but you won't listen to Him.

"But we have the mind of Christ" - That is what you need. The mind of Christ does not suffer depression.