Entering the Covenant

Tree of Life said:

They were in him but did not remain in him. They were cut off because they bore no fruit. They bore no fruit because they did not abide.

Could you explain what Jesus means when he says that these fruitless branches are "in me"?

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Still, it doesn't make sense. How can you be a branch in Christ unless you were formally connected? And if connected, then they should have bore fruit. Think about it. You can be a branch removed and not formerly abided?

Wonderful article on it, if you're interested in a in-depth look at it.

But in short, it refers to members of Israel not believing (in this case abiding) in Christ. He has come, with salvation, he is removing branches who do not abide. He tells them to abide and so bear fruit.

Remember John the Baptist's exhortation? The axe is laid at the root...bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

Tree of Life said:

The Bible describes our relationship with God as a covenant relationship. The best modern day example we have of a covenant relationship is marriage. Is it possible to enter into covenant relationship with God as an unbeliever? Are there unbelievers in the covenant? Or are there only ever believers in the covenant?

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"This is the NEW Covenant that I will make" Jer 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:6-11 -- what exactly does the text say it is - and that will help us know if unbelievers are in it (assuming by unbeliever you mean one who rejects the Gospel)

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Tree of Life said:

What's the guy doing at the feast without a wedding garment!?

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Perhaps he was a tare. But i think its clear he was not in covenant with God. There is a such thing as a backslider. People that have been born again of water and spirit yet for some reason they chose not to continue with Christ and depart from Him. These people are no longer in a covenant relationship with Jesus, they fave fallen away severed from the body no longer receiving life from the BRANCH. Pruned because they no longer bare fruit, they are not ATTACHED to Jesus.

Tree of Life said:

So those who are "in me" are Israelites who don't believe in Jesus? You think that makes sense?

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Yes, actually. If Jesus is the promise of the covenants, then at Christ's advent the members of the covenants of promise were removed who did not believe.

Are you willing to read an article?

New Birth said:

I believe according to scripture Baptism in Jesus' name is apart of the new covenant. It is being born again of water Jesus spoke about in John3

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Baptism was done by water in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Dave-W said:

No. As Derek Prince taught it, it is the “funeral and burial for the fallen nature” which died on New Birth.

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I would like to discuss more about the New Birth but question: when did the Jews enter into the Old Covenant?

David Cabrera said:

Baptism was done by water in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

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You must look at the accounts of baptisms taking place in the scriptures as a fulfillment of Matt 28:19. BTW what is the name?

Tree of Life said:

are there only ever believers in the covenant?

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No, there are unbelieving members of the covenant as well as believing members that is what the bible says in the long history of Israel and the church that it gives.

GingerBeer said:

No, there are unbelieving members of the covenant as well as believing members that is what the bible says in the long history of Israel and the church that it gives.

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Please provide scriptures stating there are nonbelievers in the new covenant

New Birth said:

Please girl scriptures stating there are nonbelievers in the new covenant

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I guess you intended "give" rather than "girl".

Were the kings of Israel in the covenant people of God? Yes is the proper answer. Were any of them pagan, apostate, wicked, and hence unbelievers? Yes is the proper answer. Have you considered Hebrews chapters 3 and 4? If not read them and see that many among the Israelite people were in unbelief.

GingerBeer said:

I guess you intended "give" rather than "girl".

Were the kings of Israel in the covenant people of God? Yes is the proper answer. Were any of them pagan, apostate, wicked, and hence unbelievers? Yes is the proper answer. Have you considered Hebrews chapters 3 and 4? If not read them and see that many among the Israelite people were in unbelief.

For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
(Hebrews 3:16-19)​

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maybe you missed when I said New Covenant.

Tree of Life said:

Is it possible to enter into covenant relationship with God as an unbeliever? Are there unbelievers in the covenant? Or are there only ever believers in the covenant?

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Howdy-

1) Looking at the terms of the New Covenant (Hebrews 8 quoting Jeremiah 31) Yahweh makes it clear that he will be keeping both parts of the covenant since Israel couldn't keep the terms of the Mosaic Covenant. This New Covenant will make the old one obselete (Hebrews 8:13) and it is a much, much better covenant.

2) We can actually think of this as the "Renewed Covenant" since the Abrahamic Covenant was also kept by Yahweh on both sides and the New Covenant is the completion of God's promise to bless all the nations through Abraham's seed (Genesis 12:1-3)

3) As did all covenants in the Old Testament between Yahweh and his people, the New Covenant requires a blood sacrifice, and in this case it is Christ himself (Hebrews 8:6, 9:11-28).

4) Since it is explicitly Christ's own body and blood that established the covenant (1 Corinthians 11:25) it is only by applying that blood to your life through personal trust in Christ's life and work that you enter into the covenant. It is these who eagerly await his return (Hebrews 9:28), the ones who will be saved.

5) To drive this home, the author of Hebrews says this in chapter 10:19-23,26,29
To "hold fast to the confession of hope" (Jesus' sacrifice) is connected to trusting Jesus to faithfully keep his promise. There is a clear relational back and forth going on here; Jesus provided the access into covenant relationship, we take hold of the covenant by "holding fast".

6) In Romans 11, Paul says that Gentile "grafting" into the New Covenant promise to Israel is made possible because of Israel's rejection of Jesus, but that if they don't continue in their unbelief, they too will be saved. Again, the Father established the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus, which is why "no one comes to the Father but by me" (John 14:6). But to lay hold of this new life, it is through personal trust in Jesus as the perfect sacrifice (John 6:28-29,40)

As a side note, a blood sacrifice was a necessary but not a sufficient condition for Old Testament covenants; two parties had to be willing to enter into the covenant. This is why a marriage ceremony isn't binding if it's coerced, even if the venue, food, and honeymoon have been paid for. Covenants in the Middle East were relational, family producing, affairs. For example, a weak chieftain would take on a filial (literally, son-like) relationship to a stronger king through a covenant in order to gain protection. (For more info, check out Dr. Walter Kaiser's helpful Toward and Old Testament Theology)

New Birth said:

maybe you missed when I said New Covenant.

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Was Judas Iscariot one of the twelve and was he brought to ruin by unbelief?

And is Hebrews 3 in the New testament? A new Covenant scripture?

GingerBeer said:

Was Judas Iscariot one of the twelve and was he brought to ruin by unbelief?

And is Hebrews 3 in the New testament? A new Covenant scripture?

For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
(Hebrews 3:16-19)​

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You are misunderstanding...No Judas was not under the new covenant because Jesus was not yet glorified and the holy Ghost was not yet given.
The writer of Hebrews was referring to those under the old testament not the new covenant in the scriptures you presented.

Tree of Life said:

I see the Bible teaching that we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved. I don't see salvation as something that happens at one time.

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We HAVE been saved from the eternal consequence of sin. (salvation)
We are BEING saved from the draw of sin (growth, sanctification)
We WILL BE saved from the very presence of sin.

Tree of Life said:

. These are not those who are truly saved, but they are truly "in him". Think about that!

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If they are "not truly saved" then they are NOT "in Him." Period.

Tree of Life said:

Could you explain what Jesus means when he says that these fruitless branches are "in me"?

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They were truly saved; (meaning if they died at that point they would have went to heaven) but subsequently fell into unbelief, became fruitless, and got cut off because of it. (lost that salvation)