Enoch & Elijah?

[JoelParks]

the 'location' of each figure I just mentioned, their 'last seen' connection..

Moses was buried by God in the earth.
Elijah was taken by God into the heavens.



Deuteronomy 4:23, 26 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD: I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day



The 'law of two witnesses' in effect. In the Law, one could not be convicted unless they had two or more witnesses. This is God's legal system.

 

[jhsaurbaugh]

I am new here. I want to post on this also since this is one of my favorite bible topics. I have been discussing this on another forum also. From my study on this topic. I also believe it to be Enoch and Elijah. I base it on Hebrews 9:27 And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement:

Since Enoch and Elijah have not died I believe they will come back to fulfill this scripture.

I also believe this for the fact of the 2 lampstands in Zecheriah also.

I believe it is not Moses for the fact he has died.

Some make a strong case for moses though. One person I have had a lengthy discussion with on this has pointed out some reasons why Moses could be. One of his strongest points is that there are others who have died twice in the Bible. But I will stick with Enoch and Elijah.

God bless Hope this was helpful.

 

[GregoryTurner]

My wife told me that same thing when we were discussing it and so did her father...

 

[JoelParks]

I am new here. I want to post on this also since this is one of my favorite bible topics. I have been discussing this on another forum also. From my study on this topic. I also believe it to be Enoch and Elijah. I base it on Hebrews 9:27 And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement:

Since Enoch and Elijah have not died I believe they will come back to fulfill this scripture.

I also believe this for the fact of the 2 lampstands in Zecheriah also.

I believe it is not Moses for the fact he has died.

Some make a strong case for moses though. One person I have had a lengthy discussion with on this has pointed out some reasons why Moses could be. One of his strongest points is that there are others who have died twice in the Bible. But I will stick with Enoch and Elijah.

God bless Hope this was helpful.

According to that logic, all who are raptured out of this earth *must* die. It's a general prescription, not an absolute rule as is obvious.

Lazarus died twice.

It also says Enoch was taken to be with God so that he should *not* see death. It wouldn't make sense to send him back to earth to see death.

 

[DeaconDean]

According to that logic, all who are raptured out of this earth *must* die. It's a general prescription, not an absolute rule as is obvious.

Lazarus died twice.

It also says Enoch was taken to be with God so that he should *not* see death. It wouldn't make sense to send him back to earth to see death.

Not necessarily, not everyone will have to die. According to Paul in 1 Cor. 15:52, those who are alive when the Lord Jesus Christ returns will be changed. Because this mortal must put on immortality. This corrupt must put on incorruption. (v. 53) John says in 1 John 3:2:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Paul also taught that:

"...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;" -1 Cor. 15:50

So if you take this verse and apply it to Enoch and Elijiah, in order for them not to die but yet enter heaven, their mortal bodies had to be changed in order to enter heaven. God has other work for them to do, that is why, in my opinion, they did not die a natural death.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[murjahel]

I believe it is not Moses for the fact he has died.

Some make a strong case for moses though. One person I have had a lengthy discussion with on this has pointed out some reasons why Moses could be. One of his strongest points is that there are others who have died twice in the Bible. But I will stick with Enoch and Elijah.

.

The ones who died twice,
were resurrected in their own bodies...

Like Lazarus, did not become ash and dust,
and have to be given a resurrection body
in his resurrection...

Paul who was stoned to death,
was resurrected, in that same body in which
he died, so it was still subject to death...

Jonah who says his spirit went down to
sheol,
was resurrected in that same body in
which he died......

Moses died around 3500 years ago,
his body is long ago become dust...
and would required a resurrection body,
which in itself is not subject to death,
for it would be eternal,
and have no sin in it...
Moses would have to sin in it,
if possible, to make it subject to death...

and the new resurrection body we are
to be given is said to be eternal...

so ... the deaths of some who were
resurrected were all resurrections into the
same body, not long dead...
the longest dead was Lazarus, who was
dead 4 days....
and the body he came out of the tomb in
was the same one, it was still bound...

​

​

 

[JoelParks]

Not necessarily, not everyone will have to die.

That was my whole point. You can't take the Hebrews verse, and use that logic to say that everyone must die.. and for this reason Enoch must die.

A whole generation of believers will not die (i.e the rapture). Those who use Enoch as a 'type' or 'shadow' of the Church's resurrection have to be consistent as well... if they believe Enoch must die, then that generation of believers caught up must follow through likewise.

It just doesn't add up in those scenarios.

According to Paul in 1 Cor. 15:52, those who are alive when the Lord Jesus Christ returns will be changed. Because this mortal must put on immortality. This corrupt must put on incorruption. (v. 53)

John says in 1 John 3:2:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Again, that was my point. The verse in Hebrews is a general prescription, and not an absolute rule.

Paul also taught that:

"...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;" -1 Cor. 15:50

So if you take this verse and apply it to Enoch and Elijiah, in order for them not to die but yet enter heaven, their mortal bodies had to be changed in order to enter heaven. God has other work for them to do, that is why, in my opinion, they did not die a natural death.

God Bless

Till all are one.

All we know is that Enoch was 'translated'. And from scripture, we are lead to believe once our bodies are resurrected or 'changed' into their immortal state -- they cannot falter or die again.

So saying their bodies must have underwent that eternal transformation already... doesn't add up, since those eternal bodies are not subject to death - thus, they could not die in that scenario.

This lends credence to the belief that Enoch cannot be one, if we believe Enoch was really 'translated' into an immortal body to be in the presence of God.

Of course, I'm sure we need to define 'translation'... and even then, pre-Christ, saints were not citizens of Heaven... they were sent to Abraham's Bosom... a temporary holding place until Christ's blood made access into the Holiest (God's very habitation place: Heaven).

 

[JoelParks]

The ones who died twice,
were resurrected in their own bodies...

Like Lazarus, did not become ash and dust,
and have to be given a resurrection body
in his resurrection...

Paul who was stoned to death,
was resurrected, in that same body in which
he died, so it was still subject to death...

Jonah who says his spirit went down to
sheol,
was resurrected in that same body in
which he died......​

Jonah didn't die... he was in the belly of a great fish which went to the seafloor.

Paul wasn't stoned to death, either. Maybe you're thinking of Stephen? Even then, Stephen wasn't resurrected either.

Moses died around 3500 years ago,
his body is long ago become dust...
and would required a resurrection body,
which in itself is not subject to death,
for it would be eternal,
and have no sin in it...
Moses would have to sin in it,
if possible, to make it subject to death...

and the new resurrection body we are
to be given is said to be eternal...

so ... the deaths of some who were
resurrected were all resurrections into the
same body, not long dead...
the longest dead was Lazarus, who was
dead 4 days....
and the body he came out of the tomb in
was the same one, it was still bound...

So what's your conclusion in summary then? I'm having a time and a half for some reason comprehending right now what you're expressing.

I think I catch some of what you're saying, though. You confirm what I mentioned a bit ago. Eternally changed/resurrected/transformed bodies cannot die.

 

[Brian1040]

IMHO, it's Moses & Elijah.
But what you say contradicts Scripture:




Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

You need to read ferther on down to get a better picture.

Hebrews 11


1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[Brian1040]

II Kings 2:1-15
1. And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2. Then Elijah said to Elisha, "Stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to Bethel.'' And Elisha said, "As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!'' So they went down to Bethel.
3. And the sons of the prophets who were at Bethel came out to Elisha, and said to him, "Do you know that the Lord will take away your master from over you today?'' And he said, "Yes, I know; keep silent!''
4. Then Elijah said to him, "Elisha, stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to Jericho.'' And he said, "As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!'' So they came to Jericho.
5. And the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho came to Elisha and said to him, "Do you know that the Lord will take away your master from over you today?'' So he answered, "Yes, I know; keep silent!''
6. Then Elijah said to him, "Stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to the Jordan.'' And he said, "As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!'' So the two of them went on.
7. And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went and stood facing them at a distance, while the two of them stood by the Jordan.
8. Now Elijah took his mantle, rolled it up, and struck the water; and it was divided this way and that, so that the two of them crossed over on dry ground.
9. And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?'' And Elisha said, "Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.''
10. So he said, "You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.''
11. Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12. Now Elisha saw it, and he cried out, "My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!'' So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces.
13. He also took up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood by the bank of the Jordan.
14. Then he took the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and struck the water, and said, "Where is the Lord God of Elijah?'' And when he also had struck the water, it was divided this way and that; and Elisha crossed over.
15. Now when the sons of the prophets who were from Jericho saw him, they said, "The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.'' And they came to meet him, and bowed to the ground before him.

Genesis 5:24
24. And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Where is it that these two died and were buried?

Revelation does not tell who the two witnesses were at all. Please sir, give something that tells where Enoch and Elijah died and were buried...

Here is where it says they all died.

Hebrews 11

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[GregoryTurner]

You need to read ferther on down to get a better picture.

Hebrews 11


1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Interesing...

 

[yodafett]

Do Malachi 4:5-6 have any relevance to this? I just came across them the other night and thought of this thread.

"See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."

 

[Zeena]

T'was Moses and Elijah who appeared with the Lord Jesus during the Transfiguration..

 

[Brian1040]

T'was Moses and Elijah who appeared with the Lord Jesus during the Transfiguration..

this was a vision

 

[Brian1040]

Do Malachi 4:5-6 have any relevance to this? I just came across them the other night and thought of this thread.

This prophecy does not mean that Elijah will come back and preach, but someone like him; John the Baptist was a man like Elijah.


Matthew 17

11And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

 

[FijianBeliever]

Hi All,

I have a different take on all this.

I agree with most of you that Enoch will be one of the witnesses. However, I think that Elijah is Enoch, and will reappear again beofre the 2nd coming. I think Moses would be the other witness.

Now, I don't have any scripture to back this up, it's all just what I think would happen. I'm really interested to find out who they would be though.