Engagement, Marriage and Divorce (Assyrian Church of the East)

[Pavel Mosko]

I've began to read a lot on divorce since a friend (A messianic Jew) who has been married 30 years is now in process of being divorced over being abused by his wife and other issues. He a had received a lot of push back from some of his church folk who in spite of the extreme circumstances are still pretty strict on the issue. I explored the topic, because I have a friend who is a bishop in a church that an apostolic succession from the ACOE and he mentioned some differences that the ACOE has with other churches on the issue so I did some research to check it out.



The paper might have some interest for people who come from different faith traditions. The Coptic church for instance has an engagement ceremonies like what is mentioned in the paper, so I found that interesting and you might find certain things like that interesting if you like comparative religion, Church history and related topics.



https://bethkokheh.assyrianchurch.o...YkgF2j53fDUqqdZSC-paP9tLvKHJGN6VY1sb5dAgiU4zc

 

[anna ~ grace]

That's a pretty good website for ACE theology. Thanks, Pavel.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

That's a pretty good website for ACE theology. Thanks, Pavel.

Yes I didn't even think to look at the root url until you mentioned that. Some interesting articles in English while most look like they are in Syriac. There is an interesting article about the afterlife here.



The Destiny of the Soul after Death in the writings Fathers of the Church of the East – Rev. Archdeacon Dr. William Toma

 

[anna ~ grace]

Yes I didn't even think to look at the root url until you mentioned that. Some interesting articles in English while most look like they are in Syriac. There is an interesting article about the afterlife here.



The Destiny of the Soul after Death in the writings Fathers of the Church of the East – Rev. Archdeacon Dr. William Toma

Thank you, Pavel!

 

[Andrewn]

There is an interesting article about the afterlife here. The Destiny of the Soul after Death in the writings Fathers of the Church of the East – Rev. Archdeacon Dr. William Toma

Yes, it is an interesting article. I'm surprised that the Assyrian Church believes in "soul sleep." I thought it was a heresy in Adventist and Jehovah's Witnesses churches.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Yes, it is an interesting article. I'm surprised that the Assyrian Church believes in "soul sleep." I thought it was a heresy in Adventist and Jehovah's Witnesses churches.

Yes I saw that too, but I'm going to have to re-read the article and even get a second opinion on that (which is hard to do, since the experts are few and busy).

In general the Assyrians conform to what we consider general small o orthodoxy. Part of me, can see that they might believe it in that they come from the Antiochene heritage of literal/ historical interpretation and if you get really literal with a few passages to the exclusion of others (especially from the NT) you can believe that. And of course some of that fits a few the old Jewish ideas of Sheol and since they are largely descended from the Jewish of the Diaspora as well as the Aramaic speaking gentiles of the rejoin.

But in saying that so much of their theology comes from the Church Fathers, while they got their own Fathers, much of the early ones they look to are the same Greek and Latin people that Catholics and Orthodox do, not too mention the early Nicene Creed and first two Church counsels.

But then again they often were in isolation from the rest of Christianity for much of the time which would make that sort of thing possible. But there are always a lot of possibility about nuances, connotations etc. I could see the possibility of them having that idea in their tradition but it not being looked at in an emphatic or dogmatic way the way some of those other groups do. I will probably have to bring this up sometime. I use to be a regular on some of their web sites like peshitta.org etc. I have a friend, actually a few friends who have that background as far as apostolic lines etc. and their know the theology, but are pretty much American and being former Protestant are quite happy to divorce themselves from any ideas that they find questionable, but some of them are well read on much of the Assyrian material.

 

[Andrewn]

Part of me, can see that they might believe it in that they come from the Antiochene heritage of literal/ historical interpretation and if you get really literal with a few passages to the exclusion of others (especially from the NT) you can believe that. And of course some of that fits a few the old Jewish ideas of Sheol and since they are largely descended from the Jewish of the Diaspora as well as the Aramaic speaking gentiles of the rejoin.

Long time ago, I discussed soul sleep with Adventists. They're wrong, of course, but they make a reasonable case. As far as OT is concerned, the Sadducees were reading it without believing in an afterlife.

To me, the most interesting thing in the article is that they don't believe in a human spirit. Even though they keep mentioning that humans are tripartite, they invariably define the spirit as the Holy Spirit given to believers. This immediately leads to 2 conclusions: 1) Unbelievers do not have a spirit; and 2) Christians' Spirit has no personal characteristics and, at death, He returns to be part of God. All personal characteristics are part of the soul, which is irrevocably connected to the body. It's as if human beings are really mono-partite.

Some Christians believe in a tri-partite structure, others believe in a bi-partite model. But this is the first time I hear of an effectively mono-partite model of humanity (even though they call it tri-partite).

I will probably have to bring this up sometime. I use to be a regular on some of their web sites like peshitta.org etc.

That would be interesting.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Long time ago, I discussed soul sleep with Adventists. They're wrong, of course, but they make a reasonable case. As far as OT is concerned, the Sadducees were reading it without believing in an afterlife.

I've only had one conversation of that topic, oddly not with a Seventh Day Adventist person but with a Protestant on this web site who was arguing against the Harrowing of Hell, belief of Early Christianity. And this came up I think in terms of debates by Protestants against the intercession of the saints, especially concerning if we can ask for their intercessions/prayers etc.

It was a very strange conversation. Christians as a rule regardless of their Communion/denomination, tend to typically see the New Testament as being a theological classifier of the Old Testament, but in this case that norm pretty much went out the window (The person invoked the hermeutical principle of let the "clear" passages clarify the unclear then proceeded to use a few passages of the psalms (which I believe are more poetic) to interpret more explicit passages of the new testament that seemingly contradict soul sleep. I at least did have fun blasting him, that in "trying to be biblical" (In a unhistorical way) he had inadvertently sided with groups he normally would be at odds with.



Harrowing of Hell - Wikipedia

 

[Andrewn]

It was a very strange conversation. Christians as a rule regardless of their Communion/denomination, tend to typically see the New Testament as being a theological classifier of the Old Testament, but in this case that norm pretty much went out the window (The person invoked the hermeutical principle of let the "clear" passages clarify the unclear then proceeded to use a few passages of the psalms (which I believe are more poetic) to interpret more explicit passages of the new testament that seemingly contradict soul sleep.

Yes, this is exactly how soul sleep advocates approach the subject.

Do you know about Assyrian soteriology? What do they believe about Christ's sacrifice and our salvation?

Also, how many sacraments do they believe in?

They are a very interesting group that used to be a huge church extending all the way to China. After centuries of massacres and persecution, most have left Iraq and. in North America, they tend to marry and worship in Chaldean Catholic churches. Are they nearing extinction?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Yes, this is exactly how soul sleep advocates approach the subject.

Do you know about Assyrian soteriology? What do they believe about Christ's sacrifice and our salvation?

Also, how many sacraments do they believe in?

They are a very interesting group that used to be a huge church extending all the way to China. After centuries of massacres and persecution, most have left Iraq and. in North America, they tend to marry and worship in Chaldean Catholic churches. Are they nearing extinction?

They are very, very small in number. Many have entered into union with Rome, and are now Chaldean Catholics.

But some still exist in India, independent of both Syrian Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church. I kind of get the impression that the Mar Thomite Christians were actually ACE before contact with the Portuguese.

CHURCH OF THE EAST - INDIA

Chaldean Syrian Church - Wikipedia

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Also, how many sacraments do they believe in?

They have 7 like most churches but they count "the Leaven from heaven" as one.
Leaven From Heaven?

They also count the Sign of the Cross/ The Cross as one as well.


They don't count marriage as one (because Christians recognize marriages from nonChristian religions they see it as an institution recognized by the Church).

Their is a medieval era document that is sort of their catechism called the Margenetha (the Pearl) that contains there basic theology and beliefs.

Marganitha - Wikipedia

I was a subdeacon in an ACOE off shoot church that the Anglician Church established to remissionize India going back to the 1800s.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Do you know about Assyrian soteriology?

I know about their general theology. Theodore of Mopeustasia is big with them as of course the other Syriac Fathers like Ephrem etc. And with that they are more interested in the poetic side of theology. And actually from that heritage you do get more of a poetic background concerning the Gospels (Jesus used poetic devices in his sermons etc.). There also is more background behind some of the Typologies of Christ as the Son of Man etc. which can be important (When people argue against the traditional narrative concerning Easter insisting on 3, 24 hour days rather than the rounded "Inclusive Reckoning" counting of the days of Christ in the tomb etc.


Theodore of Mopsuestia

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Are they nearing extinction?

The War on Terror has been a calamity for them. Prior to that they were not doing well under Saddam Hussein. While there was official "tolerance" of Christianity under that regime high ranking members of the government took advantage of them and other religions minorities at times. Saddam's oldest son was a serial rapist and murder (He kidnapped Assyrian brides on their honeymoon and often killed the groom).

 

[Pavel Mosko]

What do they believe about Christ's sacrifice and our salvation?

In general I go with the EO seeing Salvation as a process and see it in past, present and future. (I have been saved, I am being saved and on the day of Judgement hope to be saved). I am a synergist (I don't believe in Faith vs. Works as opposing forces, but believe they work together if we are in Faith. In Protestant terms I would be more Wesleyan (John Wesley) Arminian (rather than Calvinist), strong Calvinists might call me "semi-Pelagian" which is fine (name calling doesn't bother me and I think their POV has its problems). This EO video is pretty good, I'm not totally sold on the "River of Fire" idea mentioned in the End (Its a possibility but I also see traditional Gehenna and Heaven as possibility)

On the issue of "loosing your salvation" that gets talked about a lot on this web site I agree with this Lutheran theologian /pastor (technically its not loosing it but willfully rejecting Christ).

 

[Andrewn]

But some still exist in India, independent of both Syrian Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church. I kind of get the impression that the Mar Thomite Christians were actually ACE before contact with the Portuguese.

Yes, the St Thomas Christian community was originally ACE. Apparently, the majority now are Eastern Catholic.

Another significant group unintentionally joined the Miaphysite Syriac Church when they sent a delegation to the Catholicos of ACE to request ordination of a bishop. Instead, the delegation met with Patriarch of the Syriac Church. The rest of the story is mentioned in one of the articles you quoted.

I'm not sure what ratio each of these groups has in Malabar.

 

[Andrewn]

I was a subdeacon in an ACOE off shoot church that the Anglician Church established to remissionize India going back to the 1800s.

Can you tell me more about this? You have such an eclectic background: OO, EO, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist.

Thank for all the info. It will take me some time to read it and get back to you.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Can you tell me more about this? You have such an eclectic background: OO, EO, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist.

Thank for all the info. It will take me some time to read it and get back to you.

Sure I'm a cradle conservative Lutheran (WELS and Missouri), attended a Southern Baptist parochial school for 5 years. I left that to leave Christianity for a few college years to explore Taoism etc. (lots of unhappiness in my early life), only to join the nondenominational end of the Charismatic movement, But after that I did start to attend more traditional churches like Episcopal ones at times (more balanced and healthy). I went to school at Fuller Theological Seminary as a part time student for a few years, and stumbled into Orthodoxy (and found my theology greatly changed). I didn't convert then, and that was probably God looking out for me. The church I was attending actually made national headlines in Christian magazines and even a few newspapers with a schism (below article).

I floundered around for a few years, but eventually joined my best friend in trying to establish a mission church. Basically an Assyrian Church of the East Church in liturgy etc. but was charismatic much like how some Episcopal and even Charismatic Catholics are. But while we helped some people, that mission didn't really flourish. I also realized that I was much more traditional in my outlook than many of my church brethren and ended up leaving over the importance of the actual heritage (Apostolic Tradition and all that).


I joined the Coptic Church after really studying a lot about the OO. The biggest factor too was a nearby Coptic Church that was very friendly to outsiders. I would say that is my home but technically I'm estranged from it. (Years ago my wife stopped attending. Not wanting to attend when I was away. I worked a graveyard shift job and needed to sleep during the day.) And things eventually got uncomfortable when people kept asking me "Where is Gina?" on those occasions where I could attend. And she divorced me years later....


Due to my past background I feel a call on my life in areas like Apologetics, Theology and Church History. I actually enjoy writing and making videos on those things. I especially like to write for people who are skeptical or against traditional church theology, liturgics etc. and that often does mean Charismatics and Pentecostals. At this time I sort of am an unofficial member of the Charismatic Episcopal Church. Those are the sort of people that seem to appreciate my background the most, but I am much more traditional and High church than that. (At some point in my life I intend to go back to the Coptic Church for my own benefit, but I don't think they really need me as far as ministry goes).



Ben Lomond: When Antiochian Orthodoxy Drove Away its Converts

 

[Andrewn]

They have 7 like most churches but they count "the Leaven from heaven" as one. Leaven From Heaven? They also count the Sign of the Cross/ The Cross as one as well. They don't count marriage as one

I think Roman Catholics keep a portion of communion wafers and mix them with the new batch. Armenians may do the same thing.

If Assyrians add 2 sacraments and delete marriage, what's the other sacrament they don't have?

Saddam's oldest son was a serial rapist and murder (He kidnapped Assyrian brides on their honeymoon and often killed the groom).

Yes, I heard about this. Assyrians have a very sad history. Nevertheless, they have been able to keep their Aramaic dialect alive and teach it from generation to generation. I think it's called East Syriac.

In general I go with the EO seeing Salvation as a process and see it in past, present and future. (I have been saved, I am being saved and on the day of Judgement hope to be saved).

The problem with Orthodox soteriology is the last part of your statement. You "hope" to be saved. You don't know for sure because from day to day you may commit a sin and die before repenting.

I am a synergist (I don't believe in Faith vs. Works as opposing forces, but believe they work together if we are in Faith. In Protestant terms I would be more Wesleyan (John Wesley) Arminian (rather than Calvinist),

I'm not a Calvinist, either. I think Arminius didn't invent the theology attributed to him but rather formulated traditional Orthodox / Catholic theology in response to Calvinism.

Synergy to me is like an ant helping an elephant to move a rock. Or like the equation 1 + infinity = infinity. Our efforts are hardly synergistic compared to God's. But, yes, we need to do our best.

I'm not totally sold on the "River of Fire" idea mentioned in the End

I didn't get it. Can you explain this?

On the issue of "loosing your salvation" that gets talked about a lot on this web site I agree with this Lutheran theologian /pastor (technically its not loosing it but willfully rejecting Christ).

This is a good & to-the-point video. I believe in Eastern Orthodoxy as corrected by Luther and explained by Wesley.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

If Assyrians add 2 sacraments and delete marriage, what's the other sacrament they don't have?

edit. found a better answer posted below.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I didn't get it. Can you explain this?

There is a theological interpretation/belief of the Afterlife going back to Ancient times from people like Saint Isaac the Syrian and some other saints that sees the afterlife not as places you go to, "but states of being". So people who go to "heaven" or "hell" (technically experiencing that) are in the same place so to speak but experience it differently. People who are believers experience it as a really good thing (God love etc. as euphoria and other kinds of positive joy), while those that have not prepared for the afterlife experience God's love a bit like an autistic child who is love bombed, bear hugged etc. God's love is hellish or nightmarish for them.


Lots of EO seem to make this belief (which typical should be a theologummen, aka a respected theological opinion) an official teaching or dogma. It isn't as far as I know (I think it is being adopted widely now). There were a lot of old EO saints etc. that had a conception of the Afterlife that fit more the typical western notion that they are places you go to etc.