Endurance Of The Ten Commandments (incl. Sabbath)

[Byfaithalone1]

Yes you're right in saying BFA has some abnormal views on the Law.

If so, then you must also conclude that Paul has some abnormal views on the law. After all, it is Paul who compares the covenant that was from Sinai with Hagar the slave womand and then he reminds us that God gave the command to get rid of the slave woman. You do the math.

I've been trying to show him the most obvious fact, and that is love will drive us to honour the law not ignore the law which is what Crib and BFA say.

You've now had the opportunity to see that BFA does not say "ignore the law." I've now articulated my point on that subject several times. If you wish to mispresent me, I can do little about that.

The point here is not that man should ignore the law. The point is that the recipients of the law did not honor it. It is for this reason that they were given a new covenant. According to Hebrews 8, the new covenant is not like the old.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Sin is defined by the law...

Is sin solely defined by law? What do John 14 and John 16 say?

can't sin until there is a broken law.

Where is that written in Scripture?

again.. you are pointing out the law of moses. Now we will have to wait until we see the Lord in Heaven to ask Him how long as He been keeping the sabbath.

No need to wait. Read John 5:16-18.

BFA

 

[visionary]

Maybe you should ask the Lord of the Sabbath.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Maybe you should ask the Lord of the Sabbath.

Is He Lord of the sabbath or subservient to it?

BFA

 

[visionary]

He claimed ownership of the Sabbath and ruler not subervient to it... so what is your point?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

He claimed ownership of the Sabbath and ruler not subervient to it... so what is your point?

We don't have to wait until Heaven to ask Him how long He has been keeping it.

BFA

 

[visionary]

We don't have to wait until Heaven to ask Him how long He has been keeping it.

BFA

Nor how long He will continue to be Lord of the Sabbath, and that we are to submit to His Will.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Nor how long He will continue to be Lord of the Sabbath, and that we are to submit to His Will.

What happened when the Seed came (per Galatians 3)?

BFA

 

[dragNdrop]

BFA, Do you believe that the law is binding ? Yes or No ?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

BFA, Do you believe that the law is binding ? Yes or No ?

I believe that the law was a part of the covenant that was from Sinai (Galatians 4). The covenant was made between God and the children of Israel and not with their forefathers (Deut. 5). The terms of the covenant were that (1) Israel would obey God and (2) God would set Israel aside out of all nations as His treasured possession (Exodus 19). Because God found fault with Israel, He established a new covenant with them, made the old covenant obsolete and declared that the new covenant was not like the old (Hebrews 8). Gentiles were given access to God according to the promises made to Abraham and not according to the covenant made with Israel (Galatians 3). The old covenant was designed to be temporary; it was added 430 years after Abraham and only until the Seed had come (Galatians 3). The Seed has come (John 1:29). The covenant that was from Sinai is represented by Hagar; God gave the command to get rid of Hagar (Galatians 4). The letters engraved in letters on stone were a ministry of death that were fading with the ministry of the Spirit, which brings life and that lasts (2 Corinthians 3). There must be a death to the law through the body of Christ; those who were once bound by the law have been released from it so that they may serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code (Romans 7).

As a Gentile, I was never party to the old covenant and its laws. Are you a Gentile? Do you believe that you are party to the old covenant and its laws? If so, why?

BFA

 

[visionary]

Psalm 49:1
Hear this, all ye people; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world:

Psalm 98:9
Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

Isaiah 24:5
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Isaiah 13:11
And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Isaiah 18:3
All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.

Isaiah 34:1
Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luke 16:17
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

 

[dragNdrop]

BFA

What do you do with: " Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea,
we establish the law.
" Rom 3:31 ?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Psalm 49:1
Hear this, all ye people; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world:

Psalm 98:9
Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

Isaiah 24:5
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Isaiah 13:11
And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Isaiah 18:3
All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.

Isaiah 34:1
Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luke 16:17
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Excellent example of proof texting. What would you like to discuss?

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

BFA

What do you do with: " Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea,
we establish the law.
" Rom 3:31 ?

In evaluating Romans 3:31, I consider not only the entire chapter of Romans 3 but also the entire book of Romans.

I ask myself "How do we establish the law?" Some seem to assume that we establish the law by keeping it. However, notice how this conclusion cannot be supported by the passage itself:

"1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge."
5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved. 9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."
​

Do you have any thoughts on the passages I shared previously?

BFA

 

[Cribstyl]

I believe that the law was a part of the covenant that was from Sinai (Galatians 4). The covenant was made between God and the children of Israel and not with their forefathers (Deut. 5). The terms of the covenant were that (1) Israel would obey God and (2) God would set Israel aside out of all nations as His treasured possession (Exodus 19). Because God found fault with Israel, He established a new covenant with them, made the old covenant obsolete and declared that the new covenant was not like the old (Hebrews 8). Gentiles were given access to God according to the promises made to Abraham and not according to the covenant made with Israel (Galatians 3). The old covenant was designed to be temporary; it was added 430 years after Abraham and only until the Seed had come (Galatians 3). The Seed has come (John 1:29). The covenant that was from Sinai is represented by Hagar; God gave the command to get rid of Hagar (Galatians 4). The letters engraved in letters on stone were a ministry of death that were fading with the ministry of the Spirit, which brings life and that lasts (2 Corinthians 3). There must be a death to the law through the body of Christ; those who were once bound by the law have been released from it so that they may serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code (Romans 7).

BFA

This is CRIB and I approve of this message.

CRIB

 

[dragNdrop]

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law...31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."
Do you have any thoughts on the passages I shared previously?

BFA

BFA. You are missing exactly the point the author was trying to make asnd that is: Although we are justified by faith alone apart from law we must still uphold the law.

How do you uphold the law without keeping it ?

 

[Cribstyl]

BFA. You are missing exactly the point the author was trying to make asnd that is: Although we are justified by faith alone apart from law we must still uphold the law.

How do you uphold the law without keeping it ?

Bible commentaries written before SDA began shows that your application is new and a questionable resolve by isolating verse 31 from a context summary which is actually saying the opposite of what you think.

The verse is saying that faith is above the law, thus fulfilling it's requirement.
The context is explaining
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (faith is without observing the letter of the law but fulflls the law)
Rom 3:29 [Is he] the God of the Jews only? [is he] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. ( circumcision is a seal to keep the law, uscircumcision means you're not under the law and a stranger to the Mosaic covenant. Faith is the way to be justified for both Jews and Gentiles)
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (by living by faith means we love God and our neighbors thus fulfilling the law)


It appears dishonest to scramble the reiterated point in the lesson stated by verse 3:21
Rom 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Rom 3:22Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


The point is, what part of rightoeusness without the law that you dont understand?
CRIB

 

[Byfaithalone1]

BFA. You are missing exactly the point the author was trying to make asnd that is: Although we are justified by faith alone apart from law we must still uphold the law.

How do you uphold the law without keeping it ?

Why would we conclude that Verse 31 teaches that we keep the law when the rest of the chapter teaches that we do not keep the law?

You seem to assume that "establish the law" means "keep the law," but it seems to me (pursuant to the rest of the chapter) that "establish the law" must mean something other than "keep the law."

Per Verse 28, we are justified by faith and not by works of the law. It is by this faith that we establish the law (not by works of the law).

BFA

 

[visionary]

Amazing, only in religion does "establish" not mean the end result will be keeping

In the real world when I establish a new business... it also intails that I will be keeping the business.

Only in religion does "fulfill" mean finished.. not that it is meeting the obligation.

We are all obligated to be abedient to God and His commandments not out of the duty as in following the letter of the law, but in heart and intent as in love for God and His Word. This we are establishing that God is right and He is righteous in His laws and we are fulfilling those obligations as citizens of His Kingdom.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Amazing, only in religion does "establish" not mean the end result will be keeping

No. Not only in religion. I've yet to read a definition of "establish" that includes "keep."

But I'm not appealing to dictionaries. Read the context of the passage we're discussing. Read Romans 3. There is no one righteous. None who understand. All have turned away.

In the real world when I establish a new business... it also intails that I will be keeping the business.

If only this were true. Whether in religion or not, I may establish the business but this does not mean that I will keep it.

Only in religion does "fulfill" mean finished.. not that it is meeting the obligation.

I don't know what you believe, but I believe that "fulfill" means that an obligation has been fully met. Once an obligation has been fully met, do I keep meeting it?

We are all obligated to be abedient to God and His commandments not out of the duty as in following the letter of the law, but in heart and intent as in love for God and His Word.

Why was a new covenant established? Was it established because the recipients of the old covenant demonstrated their ability to keep the commandments?

This we are establishing that God is right and He is righteous in His laws and we are fulfilling those obligations as citizens of His Kingdom.

"Establish" is not synonymous with "keep." You've made an assumption that contradicts of the passage you're discussing.

BFA