Endtime views-preterists and those who aren't

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stauron

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unbound said:
Ok, I stand corrected on this one. Thank you for providing reference. Here is where my reference was coming from:

Jude 1:9
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
Cool. You can understand my confusion...

unbound said:
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If you havent tried to understand what the lake of fire is, your never going to get my point. After all my typing about the sea of glass and lake of fire and the firmament, I thought you might begin to see why I believe this. Your still caught up on the words "soon" and "quickly" and dont care about what Im saying.

We have descriptions of things pertaining to God and His creation, given to men in visions.

Perhaps you could elaborate on these visions and describe to me what is beneath the throne.

Most of my argumment comes from these descriptions of what is in front of God, and then what happens to these things which are in front of Him. You cant fully understand prophecy if you dont want to grasp the meaning of these things.
This has nothing to do with "soon" and "quickly". All through the gospels Christ is working. His work is undoing the power of the the evil one. He is successful. Satan is bound, falls from heaven, cast out and about to be crushed. They are all woven tightly together. The gospel and the power of the Son came to undo satan's power. All throughout the gospels we see Christ's victory constantly unfolding. How does Christ binding the strong man relate to your view? Is satan bound 2 or 3 different times?
 
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unbound

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Great, now is this part of the NHE?
Like I said before, what happens when a person enters into rest? Can a person be worthy to enter in and still be tired? When we enter into Gods rest, he will give us the tree of life for healing. What is so hard to understand here?

Here is where you have failed to understand our position. The New Jerusalem exist right along side of the dogs but they are not allowed inside. The verse, as you point out, shows this.

So the question that you have to answer is do you really believe what these verses say or are you going to stick with your bad theology?

Nothing wrong here about my theology. Jesus said he would bundle the tares and burn them.This hasnt happened yet. The wheat is still mixed in with the tares.

Matthew 13
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

You say the harvest has already come. If the harvest had come, there would be no tares left.

The preterist view is the only view that can answer the dillema in these passages. If, as your theology dictates and you claim above, the NHE are free from sin and corruption, then these verses cannot be about them. Because there are nations that need healing and dogs outside the city. So, which is it? Does Revelation 21 & 22 Talk about the NHE existing along side of nations that need healing and dogs outside the New Jerusalem and therefore your theology is wrong? or do you not believe these verses? (A third option is that the NHE are described some place else)

Now your just being silly. If you are being tormented in the lake of fire, I would definately say you are WITHOUT. I also said before, when a person rests, they also heal. Just because a person is tired, does not mean God doesnt want them in the his Kingdom. No problem here. I believe those verses. I also believe this one:

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Do you not believe this verse?

While I never claimed to know everything, I do think your doctrine has some serious problems. Jesus said he would bundle the tares and burn them. And then take his harvest. You claim that has already been done.

God has said he will destroy the the earth and heavens and the elements shall melt.

You say thats all talking about the Jewish temple and OT law.

I think Ill draw out of this conversation, as it doesnt seem to be doing much good either way. I hope anyone out there who has been monitoring this thread has gotten some useful information from it, hopefully it was not all in vain.

Maranatha.
 
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Imblessed

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Well, I've been following very closely unbound, and i see your point about the wheat and tares...it does seem to indicate that at some point in time, Jesus will actually separate the christians and non-christians, which obviously hasn't exactly happened yet--or else church would be far more effective(LOL). I'd like to see discussion on JUST THAT parable...could we do that?

Thanks!
 
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stauron

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unbound said:
Like I said before, what happens when a person enters into rest? Can a person be worthy to enter in and still be tired? When we enter into Gods rest, he will give us the tree of life for healing. What is so hard to understand here?
Perfect, sinless existence and the need for healing.

They don't jive. Your answer doesn't resolve the dilemma. Toil is the curse, the curse will be gone and we still need healing?


unbound said:
Nothing wrong here about my theology. Jesus said he would bundle the tares and burn them.This hasnt happened yet. The wheat is still mixed in with the tares.

Matthew 13
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

You say the harvest has already come. If the harvest had come, there would be no tares left.
I will treat this in a separate post.

unbound said:
Now your just being silly. If you are being tormented in the lake of fire, I would definately say you are WITHOUT. I also said before, when a person rests, they also heal. Just because a person is tired, does not mean God doesnt want them in the his Kingdom. No problem here. I believe those verses. I also believe this one:

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Do you not believe this verse?
Talk about silly. You claim that preterism is unbiblical because we believe that the dogs are in the New Jerusalem. Can you please support this claim? One post from a preterist anywhere will do. The dogs are outside and are never allowed in. Why are you so obtuse? How do you keep twisting our words to mean something else? The dogs are outside, we are inside AT THE SAME TIME. This poses no problem for preterism, but it disagrees with you.

Can you please address the word stoceion? You keep using it but have never addressed the fact that it is always used to represent the OC system. The weak and beggerly elements from the Old law. Have you read the article by John Owen yet? You have not supplied anything to disprove or challenge the preterist understanding of this verse or stoceion. You are offering a competing interpretation. At worst the preterist view is an equally legitimate option.


unbound said:
While I never claimed to know everything, I do think your doctrine has some serious problems. Jesus said he would bundle the tares and burn them. And then take his harvest. You claim that has already been done.

God has said he will destroy the the earth and heavens and the elements shall melt.

You say thats all talking about the Jewish temple and OT law.

I think Ill draw out of this conversation, as it doesnt seem to be doing much good either way. I hope anyone out there who has been monitoring this thread has gotten some useful information from it, hopefully it was not all in vain.

Maranatha.
What ever floats your boat. You dance on one side of the line and we dance on the other. We are both still dancing.
 
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stauron

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Imblessed said:
Well, I've been following very closely unbound, and i see your point about the wheat and tares...it does seem to indicate that at some point in time, Jesus will actually separate the christians and non-christians, which obviously hasn't exactly happened yet--or else church would be far more effective(LOL). I'd like to see discussion on JUST THAT parable...could we do that?

Thanks!
Love to! This is one of the parable that lead me away from strict futurism/dispensationalism. Ever since I have enjoyed it more.

13:24 He presented them with another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a person who sowed good seed in his field. 13:25 But while everyone was sleeping, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 13:26 When the plants sprouted and bore grain, then the weeds also appeared. 13:27 So the slaves of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Then where did the weeds come from?’ 13:28 He said, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the slaves replied, ‘Do you want us to go and gather them?’ 13:29 But he said, ‘No, since in gathering the weeds you may uproot the wheat with them. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At harvest time I will tell the reapers, “First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned, but then gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
13:36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 13:37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 13:38 The field is the world and the good seed are the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 13:39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 13:40 As the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers. 13:42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13:43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one who has ears had better listen!
The first thing to notice is that the weeds are gathered first. So much for the pretrib rapture! The weeds are gathered and burned before the harvest.

The second point to notice is that the harvest is at the end of the age. What age? No one really addresses this point. I only see two ages talked about in the scriptures. This age and the age to come. Paul and Christ both talk about them. "this" age always is ending, evil and passing away. "the age to come" is eternal life, righteousness, etc. A word study on age is fascinating. World, for ever and eternal are some of the choices translators have used. Mainly though, I think that you have to sort out which age has ended and which age never ends.

And finally think about the harvest a bit. Do we know anything about the harvest? What was the harvest? Who are the subjects? Two very specific mentions of the harvest are insightful. Matthew 21:33-44 compares Israel to a vinyard (very common comparison) and, interestingly, they kill the Owner's Son during the harvest because He asks for the Owner's share of the crop. And in John 4 we have
4:35 Don’t you say, ‘There are four more months and then comes the harvest?’ I tell you, look up and see that the fields are already white for harvest!
There seems to be a pattern that pushes the harvest and the age back to Israel and the end of the Old Covenant.

Again the timing is right on. Israel is the crop that the Lord has spent so much time preparing. At harvest time He sends His servants asking for what is rightfully His. He sends His Son and the wretches kill Him. So He sends in the harvesters to sort out the wheat from the tares. At the end of the age the tares were gathered up (in Jerusalem) surrounded and burned, and the sons of the age to come shined forth with the glory of the Father, producing the fruit of the harvest.
 
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Imblessed

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stauron said:
Love to! This is one of the parable that lead me away from strict futurism/dispensationalism. Ever since I have enjoyed it more.

The first thing to notice is that the weeds are gathered first. So much for the pretrib rapture! The weeds are gathered and burned before the harvest.

The second point to notice is that the harvest is at the end of the age. What age? No one really addresses this point. I only see two ages talked about in the scriptures. This age and the age to come. Paul and Christ both talk about them. "this" age always is ending, evil and passing away. "the age to come" is eternal life, righteousness, etc. A word study on age is fascinating. World, for ever and eternal are some of the choices translators have used. Mainly though, I think that you have to sort out which age has ended and which age never ends.

And finally think about the harvest a bit. Do we know anything about the harvest? What was the harvest? Who are the subjects? Two very specific mentions of the harvest are insightful. Matthew 21:33-44 compares Israel to a vinyard (very common comparison) and, interestingly, they kill the Owner's Son during the harvest because He asks for the Owner's share of the crop. And in John 4 we have There seems to be a pattern that pushes the harvest and the age back to Israel and the end of the Old Covenant.

Again the timing is right on. Israel is the crop that the Lord has spent so much time preparing. At harvest time He sends His servants asking for what is rightfully His. He sends His Son and the wretches kill Him. So He sends in the harvesters to sort out the wheat from the tares. At the end of the age the tares were gathered up (in Jerusalem) surrounded and burned, and the sons of the age to come shined forth with the glory of the Father, producing the fruit of the harvest.

Wow! Thanks, that makes ALOT of sense. So the people who fled Jeruselem when they were supposed to(like they were forwarned) were the 'wheat' and the ones who were killed when Jeruselem was overthrown in 70AD were the 'tares'? And the 'wheat' survived and went on to share the gospel, thus producing fruit? Of course I have never heard this view before, but it makes a WHOLE lot of sense.

I think I may be about 80% preterist now.....that was one of the parables that I just couldn't make match up. It's still extremely frustrating to me to see so many different "views" out there about the end times, I don't want to be mislead about this, obviously, so I'm more than a little hestitant to jump into the preterist camp; unbound has a point in that if preterism is wrong, it means we wouldn't be "watching" when everything goes down, and could be decieved---yet, I have real issues with the fact that people have been proclaiming the end for 1000's of years now, and nothings happened. Lot's of prayer on my part is needed now...and of course some more studying.....
 
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parousia70

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Imblessed said:
unbound has a point in that if preterism is wrong, it means we wouldn't be "watching" when everything goes down, and could be decieved---yet, I have real issues with the fact that people have been proclaiming the end for 1000's of years now, and nothings happened. Lot's of prayer on my part is needed now...and of course some more studying.....
I think you may find this scripture interesting.
Paul is contrasting those in darkness with those in light concerning the Day of the Lord. He uses the terms "wake and Sleep" as metaphores for "watching and not watching":



1 Thess 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

Ok, here we see that "sleep" is being directly contrasted with "watchfulness". Also remember to take note of Pauls immediate audience, from Vs 1 "Brethren". The Thessalonian Christians of the 1st century.

Paul contunues.........

7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Again, Paul is contrasting his Thessalonain Christian brethren with their non Christian contemporaries "Those", vs. "us".

A very interesting point is made by paul in the very next verse. A point mostly overlooked, but it is one that is devestating to the notion that non watchfulness equates to lost salvation:


10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Paul is clear, telling His thessalonian christian bretheren of the first century that they should not sleep, but remain awake and watchful, so they can escape the "sudden physical destruction", but in vs 10 he also makes it clear that even non watchfulness isn't enough for the Believer to lose his salvation when He says "whether we [Paul and the Thessalonian Christians of the 1st century] wake OR sleep makes no difference in their position as Christ's own possession.

Non watchfulness might result in physical hardship and devestation, but it can not reverse ones salvation status.
 
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Imblessed

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parousia70 said:
I think you may find this scripture interesting.
Paul is contrasting those in darkness with those in light concerning the Day of the Lord. He uses the terms "wake and Sleep" as metaphores for "watching and not watching":



1 Thess 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

Ok, here we see that "sleep" is being directly contrasted with "watchfulness". Also remember to take note of Pauls immediate audience, from Vs 1 "Brethren". The Thessalonian Christians of the 1st century.

Paul contunues.........

7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Again, Paul is contrasting his Thessalonain Christian brethren with their non Christian contemporaries "Those", vs. "us".

A very interesting point is made by paul in the very next verse. A point mostly overlooked, but it is one that is devestating to the notion that non watchfulness equates to lost salvation:


10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Paul is clear, telling His thessalonian christian bretheren of the first century that they should not sleep, but remain awake and watchful, so they can escape the "sudden physical destruction", but in vs 10 he also makes it clear that even non watchfulness isn't enough for the Believer to lose his salvation when He says "whether we [Paul and the Thessalonian Christians of the 1st century] wake OR sleep makes no difference in their position as Christ's own possession.

Non watchfulness might result in physical hardship and devestation, but it can not reverse ones salvation status.
Thanks for the insight. I wasn't worried about being non-watchful and thus losing salvation--I know that nothing can do that(AMEN:clap: ); it was more a remark about not being watchful and missing the "signs" of the times. I know that there are many who worry that if you aren't constantly watching and such, you could accidently take the mark of the beast or something like that, which I think is total bullock, since I believe in the security of salvation. As Stauron so nicely put it, if you know Jesus well, you can see the fruit of the spirit(or lack thereof) in people and cannot be easily "mislead".

However, that was some nice insight into that particular scripture, and you pointed out a couple of things I hadn't seen before! Thanks!
 
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Hidden Manna

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I just got back from a 2 week vacation and ran across this great post from 1manifestation at NJMF.

His Winnowing Fan

Since I became a preterist and found out everthing we have today is because of the Jews. Biblical Jews that is. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romens 1:16) So I love looking into the meaning of what was said in the Bible.
One really good example is John the Baptist and the Pharisees. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, “We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (Matthew 3:7-12)
This is another place you have to be completely aware of the Jewish customs. In the Old Testament we find an interesting relationship with the “threshing floor”. As we begin to explore this relationship we find some interesing things, which God has to say to us through this analogy. Let us consider what the threshing floor represents in Scriptures. Its meaning goes beyond merely “the place where grain was threshed”.
At the center of the threshing floor, one finds two large flat stones, one resting on the top of the other. They were “fitted and joined” together. The top stone was known as the “female” and the bottom stone the “male”. The “grinding of grain” was a depiction of the act of marriage (Job 31:10). It is symbolic of the relationship between the Bride and the Bridegroom. The act of this marriage is a physical depiction of the “spiritual communion” God desires between Himself and Israel. In the Old Testament Israel is viewd as the wife of the Lord. (see Isaiah 50, Jeremiah 3)
Her long marriage had built within her a false sense of security that blinded her to the approaching calmities. When God’s covenant people stray from Him and worship other gods, God calls it “adultery” or “playing the harlot” (Isaiah 1:21; Ezek. 23:37, Hosea 4:12). and they became the habitation of devils (Revelation 18:2).
Notice what God says to Israel in Hosea 9:1, “You have loved harlots earnings on every threshing floor”. Now the “winnowing fork” The Greek word describes a tool utilized to grab cut wheat for threshing by tossing it into the air, at which time wind currents would separate the heavier wheat grains from the lighter chaff. The text in Matthew implies the time of “threshing”, was when God separated the “wheat’ from the “chaff.” Jesus had His winnowing fork at the time when John the Baptist announced His arrival. Most importantly, John the Baptist said that Jesus was ready to apply the winnowing forks to the threshing floor which is a symbol to the Jews that their marriage relationship with God was about to end.
Winnowing was the process of separating the (good) wheat from the (useless) chaff. This process of separation after the harvest was again used by Jesus Himself. Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. “But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. “But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. “The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ “And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ “But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Matthew 13:24-30 )
Were John and Jesus referring to two different harvests thousands of years away . I don’t believe so. Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.” (Matthew 9:37) The harvest, was the end of the age, and the winnowing would follow it, not in our future.
“Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest.” (John 4:35) There is no way anyone can biblically say that the harvest would be a process going on for thousands of years, since Jesus did not have a sickle in his hand (the harvesting tool), but the winnowing fork. What Jesus was ready to do then, would be done after the harvest.
So you see the only way to really understand the Bible is to have a good grasp of the language, culture, historical setting in which these things were originally written and their Jewish customs.
 
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Hidden Manna

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Parousia Pasted or Future

Up until now, every last one of the date-setters of a soon-coming return of Christ were WRONG! Every one of them! It is not much consolation to hear someone say, “Well, one of these days one of them will be right!”
As we Preterist have tried to point out in previous writings, Jesus Christ did come in judgment upon Israel and to manifest His kingdom and power, back in the first century, in their generation, at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in Israel .
And I firmly believe that the coming (Parousia) referred to, was the same coming referred to in so many other places in the New Testament when imminence or nearness was connected to it. So far, our studies have dealt mainly with the Olivet Discourse, paying special attention to that part dealing with the Parousia-coming of Christ.
In this section now, we are going to deal with many of the passages in other parts of the New Testament, which deal with this same Parousia-coming of Christ.
It has been customary for liberals to say that Jesus and the writers of the New Testament did indeed say that Christ would come back in their generation, but that all, including Jesus, were mistaken. And some have said that Jesus knew He was wrong but still encouraged the Christians to expect His return in that generation so that they would be more watchful and circumspect in their living.
There have also been some Bible critics who have supported the idea that some of the sayings of Jesus got mixed up. Jesus did not actually predict His coming to be in the same generation as the destruction of Jerusalem. Who does have the authority to say this?
A primary consideration in this matter is that OTHER passages, scattered throughout the entire New Testament, tell us the same story — that the coming of Christ was predicted and expected to be in that generation. If language means anything at all, we cannot discount the many passages which speak of Christ’s coming to be while some who heard Him were still alive (Matthew 16:28), and in that generation (Matthew 24:34), etc.
We are not limited to the Olivet Discourse alone to know that the New Testament teaches that the Parousia of Christ was to take place in nearness of time to Jesus and His disciples. I do not believe we can relegate all these passages to a final advent of Christ in OUR future. And it is because of all these passages in various parts of the New Testament, which ALSO speak of a near coming of Christ, that I cannot adopt a view that references to the Parousia in Matthew 24 got there by mistake. The teaching found in Matthew 24 is the same as found elsewhere in the New Testament, that is, that Jesus would come SOON.
Some Bible teachers suggest that the prophecy found in Matthew 24 is actually concerning two periods of time. They say that all above verse 36 refers to the time of the destruction of Jerusalem and that from verse 36 on refers to a final coming of Christ in our future.
I will show why this cannot possibly be so, and that the entire Olivet Discourse has to be about the same Parousia-coming of Christ. The fulfillment of the predictions Jesus made in response to the three questions asked by the disciples did indeed all occur in that generation as Jesus said in verse 34, “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”
The “that day” of Matthew 24:36 is no different than the “that day” of Luke 17:31 where Jesus was speaking of the disciples’ need to hurry out of Jerusalem , etc. (Luke 17:31 and Matthew 24:17 go together).
Even if I were to believe that the prophecy of Matthew 24 dealt with two different things — both the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, and also a future (to us) coming of Christ, I would still be faced with the problem (as many are) of the many passages in the New Testament which speak of the “coming” of Christ to be “at hand”, “at the door,” “quickly,” “shortly come to pass,” “this generation,” etc. But accepting the viewpoint that Christ did appear in judgment on Jerusalem just a short time after all these statements, eliminates this problem altogether.
Actually a correct understanding of Luke 17:22-37 is important for a correct understanding of Matthew 24. The reason for this is that similar scriptures are used in both passages.
Now those who teach that Luke 17 is talking about A.D. 70 make the following argument: Matthew 24:17-18 is parallel to Luke 17:31. But Matthew 24:17-18 is talking about the desolation of Jerusalem. Therefore Luke 17:31 is talking about the same thing. This is the crux of the argument in a nutshell.
Luke 17:22, 24, 26, 30, 31, 34 are all taking about the same day. Since Luke 17:31 is talking about the desolation of Jerusalem, all these verses are talking about the desolation of Jerusalem. Luke 17:26-27 is parallel to Matt. 24:37-39 and Luke 17:35-36 is parallel to Matt. 24:40-41. Therefore Matt. 24:37-41 is talking about the desolation of Jerusalem. This section is talking about the advent (Greek parousia) of the Son of Man. Therefore the advent of the Son of Man must have happened at the desolation of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and all of Matthew 24 is talking about that event.
This interpretation may shake some up a little, especially if their minds are inclined to hold on to traditional beliefs without any questioning. We cannot read the New Testament without noting the many passages throughout which confirm that which was taught in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17 and 21, namely, that the Parousia-coming was expected in that generation. Did the writers of the New Testament base their belief on what they had heard Jesus say? This is a question to ponder very seriously, for the teaching of the entire New Testament is that Jesus was coming soon!
Many conservative Bible teachers try to make many of these verses say things differently than the writers intended, because they do not believe the verses mean exactly what they said as understood in plain language — that is, that the time factor involved related to the time of the apostles. Even the so-called liberals and modernists acknowledge that these verses were intended to mean exactly what they say, even though they say Jesus and the apostles were mistaken when they predicted these things.
It is obvious that the Olivet Discourse is not alone in its prediction of a Parousia-coming of Christ in that generation, for the concrete evidence is that the writers of the New Testament expected (and wrote) that this event would happen soon.
 
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Hidden Manna

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Baptized from Moses into Christ

The resurrection of the dead had to do with the Old Covenant saint being resurrected into Jesus Christ and the New Heaven and Earth in a post mortem state. We who have faith also live with them in the New Heaven and Earth even though we do not physically see them. That does not mean we cannot see them or Jesus in a Spirit form if God so chooses to reveal anything. I just wanted to make that clear.

I will attempt to show that the resurrection from the dead according to Romans 8:23 was a corporate one and not a personal one that we believers in Christ shall experience at post mortem.

1 Corinthians 10

Old Testament Examples

Do All to God’s Glory
1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
Here we have an example of two baptisms in the cloud and in the sea. I believe they foreshadowed water baptism by the sea and in the Holy Spirit by the cloud. They were baptized into Moses which foreshadowed being baptized into Christ.


Romans 6:3,4 speaks of being resurrected from the dead spiritually and that could by faith experience resurrected life after water baptism. However after the Old Covenant system was destroyed in 70 AD all the Old Testament saints would join them in a corporate resurrection into the New Heaven and Earth with Jesus Christ reigning in His Kingdom that is without observation from the natural eye.
Romans 6
2Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Luke 17:20
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation ;
Romans 8
From Suffering to Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.


The redemption of the body spoken of in Romans 8:23 was from the body of sin and death that the old covenant brought through the law then in 70 Ad when the old system was destroyed the saints at that time were redeemed from the body of Moses into the glorified body of Jesus Christ.
This redemption from the body was a corporate redemption not a personal one. It was from the body of Moses of the Old Covenant into the resurrected body of Jesus Christ in which all true believers are a part of.
Jesus is now glorified in the true believers. This is what they hoped for and this is what we now are to look back to and know that we also have been redeemed from the body of sin and death.

1 Corinthians 10
3all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
In 70 Ad when Jesus came in the clouds of Judgment against Jerusalem He used the heathen armies of the world through Rome the superpower nation at that time of the end of the Old Covenant age. Just like in the times of Moses when their bodies were scattered in the wilderness, the nation of Israel was scattered into the earth as a results of the judgment Jesus foretold from the Book of Daniel in Luke 21:20-24
Luke 21

The Destruction of Jerusalem
(1)20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
1 Corinthians 10
6Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 8Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.


Now note above that it is very clear that where it says, upon whom the ends of the ages have come, it is clear that it was speaking to them and not us 2,000 years later.
In the Old Covenant they were baptized into Moses, but in the new we are baptized into Christ. The manifestation of the Sons of God occur when the Old system ended at the then known world or age when all the dead of the Old Covenant saints were resurrected from the body of Moses into the glorified body of Christ.
Body of Moses was in the old heaven and earth or age. After the old age ended the new age of the new heaven and earth began and the glorified body of Christ was the manifestation of the Sons of God of which all true believers are a part of today.
A child could understand this. It takes someone who has been taught from the traditional teachings of men to mess things up as what happened after 70 AD. Before that the thought that Christ would return to the first century Christians was the main view and what they believed. The main problem today is that some people read the scriptures as if they are living in the first century. We have to read it as it was written to them back then and then we should look at history in the light of all scripture been fulfilled when the sign of the coming of the Lord appeared when Jerusalem and the Old Covenant age came to an end.
Because Jesus came as He said He would, as a thief in the night, He came and those who saw with the eyes of understanding knew what was going on. But man in his carnal state could not see this and therefore came about the futuristic view that is so dominate in the world today.
I challenge anyone today to be as part of an Gideon’s army and stand against the flow of traditional teaching and stand for the truth. How much better would the world be today if we did not have a majority futuristic view which denies that Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords. They also deny that we are with Christ and that His Kingdom has come. They do however believe it will happen, but as I have show it already occurred in 70 AD.
 
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The second point to notice is that the harvest is at the end of the age. What age? No one really addresses this point. I only see two ages talked about in the scriptures. This age and the age to come. Paul and Christ both talk about them. "this" age always is ending, evil and passing away. "the age to come" is eternal life, righteousness, etc. A word study on age is fascinating. World, for ever and eternal are some of the choices translators have used. Mainly though, I think that you have to sort out which age has ended and which age never ends.

And finally think about the harvest a bit. Do we know anything about the harvest? What was the harvest? Who are the subjects? Two very specific mentions of the harvest are insightful. Matthew 21:33-44 compares Israel to a vinyard (very common comparison) and, interestingly, they kill the Owner's Son during the harvest because He asks for the Owner's share of the crop. And in John 4 we have
Revelation is indeed the destruction of Jerusalem. The 2 beasts appear to represent symbolically the 2 nations of Israel, the 10 tribes of Israel divorced by God[10 kings] and the House of Judah[beast of the earth/Harlot/Jeruslaem].


The Harvest of the Elect sealed in Christ:

reve 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.


The worshippers of the temple of God being measured in chapt 11. Vine and grapes generally refer to Israel in the OT so this is not judgement on the whole world, but on a country and a great Holy City/Harlot/Jerusalem in the first century.

The Grapes of Wrath:

.....17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected [it] to bring forth [good] grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. 3 " And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected [it] to bring forth [good] grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes? 5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; [And] break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. 6 I will lay it waste; It shall not be pruned or dug, But there shall come up briers and thorns. I will also command the clouds That they rain no rain on it."
 
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stauron

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In Christ Forever said:
Revelation is indeed the destruction of Jerusalem. The 2 beasts appear to represent symbolically the 2 nations of Israel, the 10 tribes of Israel divorced by God[10 kings] and the House of Judah[beast of the earth/Harlot/Jeruslaem].


The Harvest of the Elect sealed in Christ:

reve 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.


The worshippers of the temple of God being measured in chapt 11. Vine and grapes generally refer to Israel in the OT so this is not judgement on the whole world, but on a country and a great Holy City/Harlot/Jerusalem in the first century.

The Grapes of Wrath:

.....17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected [it] to bring forth [good] grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. 3 " And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected [it] to bring forth [good] grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes? 5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; [And] break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. 6 I will lay it waste; It shall not be pruned or dug, But there shall come up briers and thorns. I will also command the clouds That they rain no rain on it."
Welcome to the fray and thanks for the verses.

So would you call yourself a preterist, or what is your understanding of the "last days"?
 
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Hidden Manna

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Amen Bro In Christ Forever,

The Harvest of Today

Here is the way it may very well be. The thorns are the people who do not believe as in today from the time that the harvest began, and that was 70 AD. The everlasting gospel is still and always will be an everlasting gospel of salvation. That means that there is still a harvesting of souls into the Kingdom of God, but the thorns are people who are of the wicked in heart because of unbelief. Where do you stand? Do you believe that Jesus has fulfilled all scripture as He said He would in Luke 21:22. The signs that He did appear in His coming can be seen in Luke 21: 20-28.

The way I see it is that the Lake of Fire burns forever just like there is an everlasting gospel that is to be preached forever. Believing the full gospel, that sees Jesus Christ as completing what He said He would do, and that was to appear a second time when the end of the Old Covenant age occurred in 70 AD, as the high Priest would do on the Day of Atonement, puts one into the New Heaven and Earth. Not believing makes someone as a thorn or weed and at some point in time that person is cast spiritually into the fire that Jesus said was kindled way back when He walked on the earth.

Luke 12
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. :amen:
 
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Hidden Manna

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The Rapture racket
What if the Book of Revelation doesn’t mandate death, destruction and the annihilation of all but true believers?


“The rapture is a racket,” writes Barbara R. Rossing in the first sentence of her recently published book The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation (Westview Press, 2004). Rossing, a New Testament scholar and an associate professor at the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago, maintains that the Rapture is a fraud of monumental proportions, as well as a disturbing way to instill fear in people.

“Whether prescribing a violent script for Israel or survivalism in the United States, this theology distorts God's vision for the world,” Rossing writes. “In place of healing, the Rapture proclaims escape. In place of Jesus' blessing of peacemaking, the Rapture voyeuristically glorifies violence and war. [...] This theology is not biblical. We are not Raptured off the earth, nor is God. No, God has come to live in the world through Jesus. God created the world, God loves the world, and God will never leave the world behind!”

What if the Book of Revelation doesn’t spell doom and gloom? What if it doesn’t mandate the death, destruction and annihilation of all but true believers? What will Rapture-mongers do?

The Rev. Tim LaHaye and his co-author Jerry Jenkins are as responsible as anyone for taking The Rapture mainstream. Their Left Behind series of apocalyptic novels, published by Tyndale House, have sold nearly 60 million copies and for several years have been regular staples on the fiction best seller lists across the country. The final volume in the 12-volume series, Glorious Appearing , was released this spring and it quickly found its way onto the best seller lists.

The Rev. LaHaye -- a longtime, high-profile religious right political leader who co-founded The Moral Majority with Rev. Jerry Falwell in 1979 -- does the novels’ imagining, while Jenkins, the author of more than 100 books including Out of the Blue with former Los Angeles Dodgers pitcher Orel Hershiser and Just As I Am , the Rev. Billy Graham's memoir, does the writing.

Their message is a variation of President Bush’s “Either you’re with us, or you’re with them” war against terrorism mantra: Either you accept Jesus Christ as your savior or, the Rev. LaHaye told CNN’s Larry King, you will be left behind.

The phrase “left behind” derives from “the Christian fundamentalist belief in the Rapture [also known as the End of Days] that is, at the sound of a trumpet, Jesus will soon appear in the clouds to take believers up to meet him, thus escaping the horrible calamities foretold in the Book of Revelation,” writes Guy Manchester in Freedom Writer . Manchester, the author of Acts of the Apostles , a novel about theocracy in America, maintains that Rapturists believe that those who aren't lifted up will be left behind to suffer the consequences of “The Great Tribulation,” a seven-year period, the last three and a half years of which will contain great suffering and devastation. Jews, amongst others, will be left behind to suffer, but before it's over “144,000 of them will accept Jesus as their savior. The rest will perish.”

For true believers -- and there are many millions in the United States -- the Rapture is a glorious prospect. Some fundamentalist Christians see the war in Iraq and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as a foreshadowing of the coming of the Rapture, and as a way to speed up the end of times. The Rapture scenario is what many believe drives evangelical Christians to demonstrate their unwavering support for Israel. Rossing, who supports states for both Jews and Palestinians writes: “... the new movement of 'Christian Zionism' is a militant all-or-nothing kind of Zionism that scripts Israel as a player in the dispensationalist Christian end-times drama in a way that baffles even Israelis.”

Then, there are the prophets making profits off the Rapture. “Usually the doomsday prophecies are reasonably harmless,” Bryan Zepp Jamieson wrote in an April essay for zeppscommentaries.com. “A small group of people hole up somewhere for the rapture, and when it doesn’t happen, they just figure their leader made a mistake in the arithmetic, and most go right on believing. Sometimes the leader convinces his followers that the way to not get left behind is by signing everything they own over to the leader, and come the day of reckoning, the group finds that they got left behind in a different sort of way.”

“They (the Left Behind series) are instilling this terrible fear in children that people are going to be left behind. It is not biblical. There is no rapture in the Bible,” Rossing told The Rutherford Institute's Whitehead.

“9/11 was a wake up call to America,” the Rev. LaHaye told Morley Safer in his 60 Minutes II interview. “Suddenly, our false sense of security was shaken. Now we realize we're vulnerable. And that fear can lead many people to Christ.”

“I see many signs of the Lord’s return. This could be the generation that’s going to hear Jesus shout from the heaven, and we’ll respond, to be with him. And you don’t want your loved ones to be left behind,” he pointed out.

In an interview with The Rutherford Institute’s John Whitehead, Barbara Rossing turns the tables on the Rapture faithful who see death, annihilation and years of terror: “I was on 60 Minutes [II] with [the Rev.] Tim LaHaye, [and] he said that liberals have created this loving, wimpy Jesus and that we need the judgmental, warrior Jesus. The big question now is what is the true image of Jesus? A loving Jesus is not wimpy. A loving Jesus is precisely who Jesus is, and that is how he is portrayed in the Gospels.”

Rather than scare the living daylights out of folks, the book of Revelation actually aims “to comfort and inspire Christians to a vision of hope,” Rossing stated. “In the early Roman Empire, when it looked like violence was getting out of hand -- much like things today -- it was a message to people that the empire would not last much longer and that the Emperor was not the one in charge of the world. Jesus is in our midst, but He is not the avenging warrior Jesus. Jesus is the lamb who is leading us to a different way of life -- one espousing love.”

The Left Behind series has helped launch an extraordinarily profitable cottage industry, where there’s no shortage of new products and spin-offs: Left Behind II: Tribulation Force -- the second Left Behind movie starring Kirk Cameron -- is now available on DVD; The Left Behind Prophecy Club is a fee-based website and newsletter designed “to help people understand how current events may actually relate to End Times prophecy;” “In a world where madmen rule, the voice of God will not be silenced,” reads the promotional blurb for Jerry Jenkins’ latest novel titled Silenced (Book 2 in the SOON trilogy).

For those looking for up-to-the-minute Rapture scorecards, Webmaster Todd Strandberg has created The Rapture Index , which he somewhat playfully calls a “Dow Jones Industrial Average of End Time activity.” The Rapture Index tracks of a number of indicators, aimed at gauging how bad things are on earth. Included in the mixed bag of categories or “indicators” are: Bible-related categories which include False Christs, Satanism, the Mark of the Beast and The Anti-Christ; financial indicators, including stats on unemployment, inflation, interest rates, and oil prices; cultural issues including drug use, liberalism, and civil rights; and then, there are your natural disasters -- earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, plagues and drought.

Two weeks after 9/11, “the index hit an all-time high of 182... as the bandwidth nearly melted under the weight of 8 million visitors,” Time magazine reported. As of September 13, the index stood at 151, the highest number this year. (Interestingly, the record low number, 93, was registered on December 12, 1993, the end of Bill Clinton's first year as president.)

Comparing the theme of the “Left Behind” series to ethnic cleansing, New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof recently wrote: “If a Muslim were to write an Islamic version of 'Glorious Appearing' and publish it in Saudi Arabia, jubilantly describing a massacre of millions of non-Muslims by God, we would have a fit.” Kristoff added that “It's disconcerting to find ethnic cleansing celebrated as the height of piety.”
 
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JAL

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I haven't read all the posts, so why am I jumping in? Because I suspect that my view is rather unique and tends to be overlooked by both sides. I will not deny there are problem passages for me as well, however. I am a post-trib, so I believe Jesus is coming back at the end of the world.

The traditional parousia views seem correct because His return is depicted as an event that every eye will see. For instance if you showed such verses to a non-Christian, he would be likely to see here a real, visible, second coming rather than a spiritualized coming. Jesus says, stand up and lift up your heads because they will be able to see Him coming.

On the other hand here is where preterists are definitely correct. Heremeneutical consistency requires us to admit that "this generation" meant Christ's generation. It seems clear that He only uses that phrase in reference to His own generation, not to some future generation. I don't think anyone is going to change my view on that. So when Jesus said, This generation won't pass away until all these events are fulfilled, He meant literally that His own generation would live to see the end of the world.

So how do you reconcile these two facets? Now let's throw a third stone in the pot. Moses was talking to all Israel when he told them, If you all fall away, God will scatter you among the nations and then will gather you from the nations. Who was Moses talking to? His own generation! Are you starting to see a pattern? Here Moses was telling his own generation that they would be alive in the last days! Jesus likewise told His own generation that they would see Him coming in the last days! And not only Moses, but Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Isaiah all promised restoration to their own generation!

Ready for a radical solution? Here we go. The chuch father Tertullian was a materialist. He believed that everything was physical including God. And yet he is famous for having helped to develop the doctrine that is now called the Trinity. He also held that original sin in Adam only makes sense if Adam's soul is physical. I agree with Tertullian, for I too am a materialist, so let me give you my version of Adam. God created only ONE human soul named Adam. That's it. There is no one else even today. When Adam sinned, God removed MOST of his sin-stained soul and put it in suspended animation. Adam continued to live a normal life, but when his wife conceived an embryo, God took some of his sin-stained soul (from suspended animation) and merged it with the embryo. God did the same to each of us. So we are the Adam that sinned even though we don't remember it (much as the infant Jesus did not remember all that godly knowledge). That's why we are born stained with sin. What does this mean? Essentially that Adam is a sort of everlasting generation!

Based on that paradigm, I hold that God did a similar thing with Israel. She is God's elect (Rom 11:28). He refuses to forsake her. So the original Israel is an everlasting generation. When an unsaved Israelite of the OT was on the verge of death, God removed most of his soul and put it back in suspended animation. So when he died, only the deceased part of his soul went to hell. God preserved the majority of his soul to be reborn in an embryo in later generations. It never died! (We are only supposed to die once according to Hebrews). Israel is still alive and will remain alive until the end! (Now I doubt this includes converts to Judaism, I'm speaking of the original Israelite 12 children and their 12 resulting tribes). Thus Jesus could say, Some of you standing here will not taste death until the Son of man returns in glory. Each part of the soul is an individual in its own right. He knew these men would die soon but He was speaking of those portions that God intended to preserve in suspended animation until the last days.

Guess what? This explains why Jesus insisted that John the Baptist was Elijah. When it says that John came in the spirit of Elijah (Lk 1), it doesn't mean Spirit of Elijah (because the Spirit was already mentioned in that context and Luke isn't redundant). John was actually PART of the spirit of the original Elijah. So when Malachi says that Elijah will come back, he was referring to two separate returns, first John the Baptist, and then another portion of Elijah will return in the last day, probably one of the two witnesses of Revelation. I am sure this is a solid interpretation, because even today the Jews leave an empty seat at the table for Elijah.

So when Paul says that all Israel will be saved (Rom 11:26), he means it literally. Every Israelite will be saved by virtue of last-days outpourings (except those small soul-portions that died unsaved). She is God's elect, and God does not cast away His elect. Now that doesn't mean that they necessarily are all alive today as Jews because God could be merging their souls with any embryo of any nation.

I can point you to a free book defending materialism if you send me a private message.
 
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Hidden Manna

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I sincerely recommend that you go back and start reading all the posts in this tread. If you chose not to at least read this.

Baptized from Moses into Christ

The resurrection of the dead had to do with the Old Covenant saint being resurrected into Jesus Christ and the New Heaven and Earth in a post mortem state. We who have faith also live with them in the New Heaven and Earth even though we do not physically see them. That does not mean we cannot see them or Jesus in a Spirit form if God so chooses to reveal anything. I just wanted to make that clear.

I will attempt to show that the resurrection from the dead according to Romans 8:23 was a corporate one and not a personal one that we believers in Christ shall experience at post mortem.

1 Corinthians 10

Old Testament Examples

Do All to God’s Glory
1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
Here we have an example of two baptisms in the cloud and in the sea. I believe they foreshadowed water baptism by the sea and in the Holy Spirit by the cloud. They were baptized into Moses which foreshadowed being baptized into Christ.


Romans 6:3,4 speaks of being resurrected from the dead spiritually and that could by faith experience resurrected life after water baptism. However after the Old Covenant system was destroyed in 70 AD all the Old Testament saints would join them in a corporate resurrection into the New Heaven and Earth with Jesus Christ reigning in His Kingdom that is without observation from the natural eye.
Romans 6
2Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Luke 17:20
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation ;
Romans 8
From Suffering to Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.


The redemption of the body spoken of in Romans 8:23 was from the body of sin and death that the old covenant brought through the law then in 70 Ad when the old system was destroyed the saints at that time were redeemed from the body of Moses into the glorified body of Jesus Christ.
This redemption from the body was a corporate redemption not a personal one. It was from the body of Moses of the Old Covenant into the resurrected body of Jesus Christ in which all true believers are a part of.
Jesus is now glorified in the true believers. This is what they hoped for and this is what we now are to look back to and know that we also have been redeemed from the body of sin and death.

1 Corinthians 10
3all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
In 70 Ad when Jesus came in the clouds of Judgment against Jerusalem He used the heathen armies of the world through Rome the superpower nation at that time of the end of the Old Covenant age. Just like in the times of Moses when their bodies were scattered in the wilderness, the nation of Israel was scattered into the earth as a results of the judgment Jesus foretold from the Book of Daniel in Luke 21:20-24
Luke 21

The Destruction of Jerusalem
(1)20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
1 Corinthians 10
6Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 8Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.


Now note above that it is very clear that where it says, upon whom the ends of the ages have come, it is clear that it was speaking to them and not us 2,000 years later.
In the Old Covenant they were baptized into Moses, but in the new we are baptized into Christ. The manifestation of the Sons of God occur when the Old system ended at the then known world or age when all the dead of the Old Covenant saints were resurrected from the body of Moses into the glorified body of Christ.
Body of Moses was in the old heaven and earth or age. After the old age ended the new age of the new heaven and earth began and the glorified body of Christ was the manifestation of the Sons of God of which all true believers are a part of today.
A child could understand this. It takes someone who has been taught from the traditional teachings of men to mess things up as what happened after 70 AD. Before that the thought that Christ would return to the first century Christians was the main view and what they believed. The main problem today is that some people read the scriptures as if they are living in the first century. We have to read it as it was written to them back then and then we should look at history in the light of all scripture been fulfilled when the sign of the coming of the Lord appeared when Jerusalem and the Old Covenant age came to an end.
Because Jesus came as He said He would, as a thief in the night, He came and those who saw with the eyes of understanding knew what was going on. But man in his carnal state could not see this and therefore came about the futuristic view that is so dominate in the world today.
I challenge anyone today to be as part of an Gideon’s army and stand against the flow of traditional teaching and stand for the truth. How much better would the world be today if we did not have a majority futuristic view which denies that Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords. They also deny that we are with Christ and that His Kingdom has come. They do however believe it will happen, but as I have show it already occurred in 70 AD.
 
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JAL

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Hidden Manna, the three versions of the Olivet discourse (Mat 24; Mk 13; Lk 21) are virtually identical in both content and sequence. There are about 15 main events listed at the bottom of this page for your convenience. The twelve items common to Mathew, Mark, and Luke in both sequence and content are most likely in chronological order. The three items not common (#8, #12 and #13) need not be presumed chronological, so the trampling of the Jews (#12 and #13) could be either 70 A.D. or the last days. Please pay particular attention to item #14 because it’s common to all three versions – namely that the heavenly bodies will be shaken before Christ returns. That hasn’t happened yet, so I don’t think His second coming has occurred. According to Hebrews God says, Once more I will shake the heavens and the earth. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood BEFORE the day of the Lord (Acts 2).



(Understand that I am part of an evangelical branch called Open Theism which holds that the future is flexible, that only a few upcoming events are set in stone). You have a valid point that the apostles saw themselves as at the end of the age. My opinion on this is that God reveals enough truth to encourage us. The end of the age is when the gospel is verged to reach all nations. Since the early church was so anointed, they were at the end of the age. After the apostles died, however, the church apostatized largely. Populations increased, languages diversified, and the goal of reaching all nations retreated almost out of reach. It was no longer the end of the age. As an analogy, suppose your kids are in the final phase of their chores. You tell them, Persevere! You’re at the very end of the job! Then something climactic happens (a hurricane, tornado, etc). Suddenly the whole houses is dirty again. Now your earlier statement (You’re at the end of the job!) is no longer true.

True, Jesus said, Behold I come quickly, but it is debatable whether this means soon or speedily (suddenly). If it means suddenly, this doesn't lend support to 70 A.D. If it means soon, then 70 A.D. does receive some support. Again, however, I would still use the above argument regarding the end of the age, or I would argue that the term soon can mean a long time for God.

Here are the 15 main events of the Olivet discourse if anyone needs to reference them: (1) Many will claim, I am Christ. (2) Wars and rumors of war. (3) Nation rises against nation. (4) Earthquakes, famines, plagues. (5) Men seize/imprison you to testify before rulers. (6) Men betray men/you and kill (all?) you. (7) All nations hate you. (8) Gospel preached to all nations/end comes (Matthew alone). (9) Abomination of desolation. This seems to refer to Daniel's end-of-the-world predictions. (10) Judeans should flee to mountains. (11) Woe to moms nursing in this tribulation. (12) They (Jews?) shall fall by sword captive to all nations (Luke alone). (13) Jerusalem is trodden until Gentile times fulfill (Luke alone). (14) Heavenly bodies shake. (15) Christ returns.
 
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Hidden Manna

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JAL, I would like to share that the gospel had already been preached to the whole world before 70 AD.

Colossians 1:23
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.



Another thing is the problems with the futurist views of the heaven and earth.
The problem with understanding the symbolical term of the “heaven and earth” is that most are not accustomed to dealing with such symbolical language like the heaven and earth, the sun being darkened and the stars falling, from the sky etc, without tacking these things literally. To the Jews, this was not new language.
When the rulers of the nation that God destroyed passed away, it was said that the sun was darkened and the stars fell from the sky’, etc. To help understand how the Jews communicated in terms of symbolical language open your Bible and turn to (Genesis 37:9).
After Joseph had a dream, from God, he told his Father and brothers about it and said, “Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.” His father understood the meaning of that dream and asked,” What is the dream that thou haste dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth” (vs.10)? As you can see, Joseph dream was related to his father, mother, and brothers not the universe. This passage might be taken to mean that the signs in the physical sun, moon and stars, would fall from the heavens. But the teaching of Joseph which we have just been considering absolutely forbids that interpretation.
Thus we find good reason for concluding that Joseph is here speaking figuratively of unusual happenings in the political firmament, that is to say, in the sphere of governments, or what Joseph calls the higher powers.
In Isaiah 13:7-10 we have an example of the use of this figure. This kind of language was also used by God in picturing His awful judgment on nations and it’s people. Take, for example, the case of the prophesied fall of Babylon to the Medes in 539 BC., This applied to Babylon, as mentioned in verse 1. “The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened (xiii. 9,10). It occurs in connection with a description of the day of the Lord. We quote verse 10: For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Taking these words in connection with Joseph’s dream about the sun, moon and stars (which his father and brethren had no need of one to interpret for them, (Ge 37:9,10), we get the idea that the sun stands for authority on earth in the broadest sense, and the moon for lesser authority, and the stars for prominent persons in the sphere of government.
In Isaiah 51:5-6 God predicted the destruction of “heaven and earth.” Verses 15-16 defines that “heaven and earth” as the world created when God gave Israel the law at Sinai. In contrast to that world that would would be destroyed, God’s new world would stand forever, vs. 6. GOD CREATED ISRAEL’S HEAVEN AND EARTH AT SINAI, BUT HE WOULD DESTROY THAT WORLD TO MAKE WAY FOR THE NEW CREATION OF CHRIST! Isaiah predicted this in chapter 65:1-17-19. This is the very same ‘heaven and earth’ mentioned in. (2 Peter 3:12-13)
(1) Now would you mind please showing us mislead preterist were in history did the literal stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon were darkened.
(2) And while you are at it please feel free to give us some scripture were the New Testament writers say we are now to take their scripture literaly.

This applied to Babylon, as mentioned in verse 1. “The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened (xiii. 9,10).
I look forward to seeing your proof from history.
 
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