• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Endogenous Retroviral Insertions: Not Proof of Man-Monkey Kindred

Status
Not open for further replies.
P

Punchy

Guest
If endogenous retroviral insertions and other non-coding DNA are functional rather than vestigial, this should be considered evidence for design rather than evolution. ERV's were once the "magic bullet" that I used in arguing for common descent. But if humans are created in the image of God, it should be expected that most, if not all, of our DNA was designed for a purpose rather than appearing by accident.



This serves as yet another example of how the presupposition of naturalism can hurt rather than help scientific research. If we were to allow for the possibility of design, we'd pay closer attention to how organs and DNA that appear to be nonfunctional actually serve a valuable purpose. In anthropology, we learned that there is no such thing as human vestigial organs, only organs that were once incorrectly understood. Today, we are beginning to realize that there is no such thing as "junk" DNA.


Peace.
 

Deamiter

I just follow Christ.
Nov 10, 2003
5,226
347
Visit site
✟32,525.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
lol good point about YEC (the last article was co-authored by Hugh Ross if I read it right).

I don't think the point was ever that ERVs have no function. ANY mutation or insertion in our DNA will over time either become useful (and impart a survival advantage) or continue as neutral. I mean this isn't any big controversy or anything, it's just how genetics works.

The key to ERV evidence of common ancestry is that ERV insertions follow EXACTLY the nested hierarchies produced by other genetic evidence and by morphology. It's not "proof" but it's yet another line of evidence that shows where we inferred common ancestry based solely on morphology, the unique genetic markers verify the ancestral relationship.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
Basically, there are two ways to go about using ERVs as evidence for evolution:

1. "Unintelligent Design" criticism - i.e., this bit of DNA is junk, so how can it be designed?
2. Genetic phylogenies independently recapitulate other phylogenies, which is more likely within an evolutionary scheme than a creationist scheme.

Now, point 2 has often been brought across as encompassing point 1 or needing it to work, but I don't think it does. They can be disentangled. What's more, when they are disentangled, the ERVs are as strong an evidence for evolution as they ever were.

(By the way, if ERV genes can be co-opted by the mammalian genome and mutated to facilitate placental morphogenesis, isn't that proof of a new function being developed for old genes right there? )
 
Upvote 0

Deamiter

I just follow Christ.
Nov 10, 2003
5,226
347
Visit site
✟32,525.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Given our current scientific knowledge, common descent is our best explanation for ERV's. What I simply do not like is the belief that any of our DNA is "junk."
There's no scientist in the world that believes that non-coding DNA is worthless. Like the popular terms "Big Bang" and "Black Hole" the common meaning of the word doesn't necessarily say what you might think.

In this case, as I've said there's no scientist in the field who thinks that junk DNA is worthless. Moreover, few scientists actually use the term "junk DNA" -- it's used primarily by the media and occasionally in trying to describe non-coding DNA to an uneducated and uncaring public.

Rail against the term "junk DNA" all you like -- I've done it myself in the past (where I thought it could be addressed without throwing a thread off topic).

ERV's were once the "magic bullet" that I used in arguing for common descent. But if humans are created in the image of God, it should be expected that most, if not all, of our DNA was designed for a purpose rather than appearing by accident.
Indeed evolution makes the same prediction. Most of our DNA will be beneficial in some way -- if nothing else, non-coding DNA provides potentially future coding DNA, and as you've pointed out, non-coding DNA has been found in recent years to have secondary and tertiary function (in that it can often be removed or changed without seriously imparing the organism).

Additionally, evolution predicts that mutations like ERV insertions into non-coding regions will remain until mutated away or co-opted in some vital way.

Finally, I disagree strongly that if God created us in his image, our DNA should not appear to be affected by random mutations (or as you say accident -- a loaded term that implies the interruption of normal rational action). Evolution is no accident. Descent with modification (or evolution) is simply the best way to adapt a population to a continually changing environment. Our DNA (including evidence of our ancestors in markers like ERVs) has been actively designed through natural selection, and the element of selecting for reproductive success is anything BUT random!

We know God has designed us to be able to adapt to our environment through the random mutations that happen constantly. We then see evidence of common descent among all life. Why would you contrast "designed" with "using random mutations" when the designer could very well have used random mutations in his perfect plan for creation?

Oh, and to get back to my final point, do you really think we're physically made in God's image? Does God have a (physical) heart and hair and hands that he will physically use to hug us in heaven? Or is perhaps our creation in his image a matter of being able to choose to love and our ability to choose to reject him? If our likeness in God is not physical (as most Christians believe) then why would you conclude based on that verse that all our DNA must be useful?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.