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Ending Biological Aging?

Chalnoth

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Chalnoth, you make some good points. However we need to limit the population anyway as resources get more and more scares on this planet.
Well, that all depends upon what sort of standard of living we want. More people, lower standard of living. We can certainly survive with more people than we have today, but the average standard of living will be crappy. The real question, I think, is how to ethically deal with the problem of overpopulation. Evidence seems to be that developed nations just don't have issues with population growth.

The real problem on this topic is that increasing longevity just exacerbates the problem of overpopulation.

We will need to begin to colonize the other planets starting with Mars. I know already of several people doing research on that very subject. We will most likely have some people also living on the moon but that will be a smaller population since the moon is not a good candidate for terrafroming.
This isn't going to help the overpopulation problem, though it may potentially be useful to obtain raw materials rare on Earth, such as various heavy metals.
 
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max1120

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Veritas21, another thing you may have overlooked. If we can reach biological immortality that may buy us time to acquire true immortality. How you may ask? True immortality would require being able to avoid death from accidents,suicide,murder,and other such events. The answer would be regeneration technology. Regeneration technology which is not here yet would allow for us to bring back a person after they have been dead for an extended period of time. Dead for how long we do not yet know but it may be possible. Much research remains to be done in this area and I am not as well versed as I am in some of the other areas of research but I think its time will come.
 
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max1120

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Chalnoth, if as we suspect Mars once supported water, perhaps it could again? I am suggesting that we use terriforming to bring Mars to a point where it could perhaps sustain life.

Research being done today in Europe at a facility on the French and Swiss border will recreate the big bang. Google Cern and see for yourself its the worlds largest particle physics experiment ever and it promises to open up an brand new chapter in physics. Some have suggested it may re-write physics as we know it. It may unlock the the physics behind travel beyond the speed of light which would allow for interstellar space travel. The use of matter/anti matter space travel. Sounds like something out of star Trek? It is, but so was the cell phone (communicator), electric eye doors, microwave ovens, and a device used in Dr. McCoy's sick bay that bore a strange resemblance to a MRI machine. Lots of people watched Star Trek as a kid and grew up and were influenced by Gene Rodenberry's works. Some of those kids grew up to follow a career in science and medicine.The were inspired by his work and the television show that followed from his novels.

Perhaps we will boldly go where no man has gone before?
 
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Chalnoth

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Chalnoth, if as we suspect Mars once supported water, perhaps it could again? I am suggesting that we use terriforming to bring Mars to a point where it could perhaps sustain life.
That's not the point. The point is that it is completely unfeasible to offload a significant fraction of the Earth's population to any other planet. Any colonies that we do form would start from a relatively small number of people.

Research being done today in Europe at a facility on the French and Swiss border will recreate the big bang. Google Cern and see for yourself its the worlds largest particle physics experiment ever and it promises to open up an brand new chapter in physics. Some have suggested it may re-write physics as we know it.
Well, actually, I am a physicist, so I know quite a bit about the LHC. It won't actually recreate the big bang. What it will do is recreate certain conditions (specifically the temperature) that existed very early in our own universe. It won't be able to go anywhere nearly as high in temperature as our universe once was, but it will go higher than any accelerator has gone in the past.

It may unlock the the physics behind travel beyond the speed of light which would allow for interstellar space travel. The use of matter/anti matter space travel.
Yeah, this is just nonsense.

Perhaps we will some day develop the technologies to colonize other star systems. We already have, on paper, some ideas that seem potentially plausible, such as the Bussard Ramjet, which would make use of the mostly extremely diffuse hydrogen gas that permeates the galaxy to power a fusion reaction. This would allow essentially continuous propulsion, and we therefore wouldn't need to worry too much about travel times (we might be able to traverse the distance in a few decades). I think the primary problems would be technical: when traveling at those speeds, what happens if we hit a bit of dust? Or anything even slightly larger? What about radiation shielding? How do we manage the drag on the ship so that it can actually reach high velocities?

It's a difficult problem, but something that is at least potentially within the realm of possibility some time far in the future. The main problem is that any such trip will inevitably be one-way for the colonists. If they ever tried to return to Earth, they'd find that everybody they knew was long dead.

As for actual faster-than-light travel, well, we can conceive of the possibility of bending space-time. But the problem is that the energy requirements are so absurdly massive that it's just not realistic.
 
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eMesreveR

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overpopulation problem

Well, considering that this optional-mortality pill will be available primarily only to the wealthy, who already know how to control their population (see: japan and many european countries), i don't think this will be so terrible. Besides, by then we might hopefully have molecular manufacturing!
 
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Chalnoth

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Well, considering that this optional-mortality pill will be available primarily only to the wealthy, who already know how to control their population (see: japan and many european countries), i don't think this will be so terrible. Besides, by then we might hopefully have molecular manufacturing!
Well, the problem with longevity and reproduction is that if we, say, double the human life span by actually halting aging, we could easily be talking twice the amount of time to have children. So the same limits on reproduction today might easily not limit people who live twice as long. Of course, this depends largely upon whether or not this longevity extends menopause.

But how is molecular manufacturing supposed to help?
 
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max1120

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Chalnoth, sorry was unaware of your physics background. No insult was intended it is just that many do not know what the LCH is I was trying to illucitate others on the experiments.

Its not nonsense. While I doubt we will come away from LHC with a warp drive or anything like it we may discover new understandings of physics which will allow for us to develop those technologies over time.

Another point would be that LHC may allow scientist to discover a new dimension. This would greatly add to our understanding of physics.

As for bending space/time requiring such massive amounts of energy as to render it unrealistic, I would suggest that you are thinking to much inside the box. I think we will develop exotic matter and the technology to utilize it to travel to the far galaxies. The experiments at LHC could at least be the start on that path.

As to terraforming Mars, yes it will take time perhaps generations. We will have to develop new and better ways to use our current resources and limit our population in a moral fashion until that time. But that does not negate the need to put an end to death. If you are an atheist one would certainly think that you would want to be first in line to throw off the shackles of death and disease. I am sure Margaret Downey and other atheist leaders would see wisdom in what I am suggesting.

eMesrever, I can appreciate your view. However all new technologies are expensive at first and over time become less so. Think about the price of VCR's DVD players, cell phones, and microwave ovens just to name a few. It would start in might first be available in the wealthy countries of North America and Europe but it would later be available I am sure across the planet.
 
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Blayz

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If we were able to reprogram CD4 cells and reconstitute the immune system of a person infected with HIV in such a was as to delete two receptors on the surface of the CD4 cell (these people lack both co-receptors on the surface of the CD4 cell where the virus usually attaches itself to the cell) then over time these new cells would become the dominate population of CD4 cells in the body and the virus while still in the body(at least for a while) would not cause harm to the patient as it could not attach to the CD4 cells as easy as before. Further work would most likely lead to eradication of the virus or other means of limiting the virus's ability to attack cells in the body.

Well you will be better off targeting the CD34+ haematopoetic stem cells as well, since they form the basis of CD4 cells.

That's what we did, anyway.

Stripping the receptor is NOT the way to go though. It's actually needed for biological function.
 
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Shemjaza

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My opinion of old age is that it's an unfortunate genetic disease that has been beneficial to us as a species (much like sickle cell anemia in parts of Africa). Dying of old age is a fantastic adaption for an evolving species, it means we don't compete with our offspring; it does suck for an individual intelligent creature though.

I'm not certain enough about how genetic treatments could potentially work, so I'm unsure if they'll ever be able to 'turn off' the genetic triggers for old age in an already born human... but it seems much more practical to modify a child before they are born so they can live considerably longer lives.

But if even if we turned off aging, we wouldn't be immortal, we'd still have wear and tear on our bodies and brains... granted with the weaknesses of old age we'd be better able to overcome them, (but even at my age of 30 I have some old injuries that give me trouble).

Also for all the worry about over population and the comments about the developed nation's low breeding rates we are missing the important issue. The massive waste in the world doesn't come from the overpopulated third word nations, it comes from the lifestyle we in the richer countries have got used to. We eat more, we waste more and we churn through electricity and water far faster then we should (I include my self in this, and I'm trying to be better). If we westerners were immortal, I'd hope we'd try to be more careful with our resources and environment.
 
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max1120

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Blayz that is very interesting information. Could you give me more information on the research and on the suggested role of CD34's? I would find it fascinating.

Shemjaza, what you are saying has a point. However I am not prepared to go out with a whimper. I think we could alter children in the womb yes and we should if would increase their lifespan. However, I still think we are capable of reaching immortality ourselves also. Wear and tear on the body could be repaired through regenerative technologies aquired through stem cell research. All we have to do is wait for the end of Dubya's term and Obama will open up funding so that we can move more quickly towards that end. Even if McCain by some lucky break were to be elected there is still a chance he would also change W's stem cell policy but i would feel much better about it if Obama is in the White House.
 
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Chalnoth

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Chalnoth, sorry was unaware of your physics background. No insult was intended it is just that many do not know what the LCH is I was trying to illucitate others on the experiments.
Well, I didn't take it as an insult. Just to let you know the state of affairs.

Its not nonsense. While I doubt we will come away from LHC with a warp drive or anything like it we may discover new understandings of physics which will allow for us to develop those technologies over time.
The thing is, new discoveries don't work this way. They firm up knowledge in areas where we don't yet have information. They don't entirely overturn old discoveries. For an example, take Newtonian Mechanics and Special Relativity.

Due to Special Relativity, we know that Newtonian Mechanics is very wrong when you go about comparing objects moving at very high relative velocities. But does this mean that we don't teach students about Newtonian Mechanics? Certainly not! There is a well-understood range of application where Newtonian Mechanics is known to be highly accurate. There just isn't any reason to make use of special relativity most of the time. So we teach students the much easier, and often much more useful, Newtonian Mechanics first.

But it's worth being aware of the limits of where our experiments have reached so far. With Newtonian Mechanics, it's really easy: we know where it breaks down because we know the more accurate theories that apply when you get to small distances, low temperatures, extremely high temperatures, high velocities, or strong gravitational fields.

With our current understanding of gravity and quantum theory, we don't yet know the theories that apply beyond where our experiments have gone, but we do know that these theories are accurate up to as far as these experiments have probed. For quantum theory, we know it is accurate up to energies of a few hundred GeV, which for macroscopic matter would represent temperatures or velocities so vastly beyond what we are ever capable of producing that we just won't realistically be able to access those energies in a macroscopic way. For gravity, we know that the current theory is accurate on length scales as small as a fraction of a millimeter, and out to distances as large as many millions of light years. Once again, there's just no wiggle room available for the movement of large, macroscopic objects.

So yes, because of where experiments to date have taken us, we can say with a high degree of confidence that things like warp drive and teleportation are just not ever going to work.

Now, an experiment like the LHC is going to be exceedingly interesting for people like myself that want to know where the next stage in high-energy physics will take us (mind you, not interested enough to work in that field...I'm in cosmology). But we can say with an extremely high degree of confidence that it's not going to lead to Star Trek.

Another point would be that LHC may allow scientist to discover a new dimension. This would greatly add to our understanding of physics.
Indeed. But most people seem to misunderstand what is meant by dimension here.

A dimension is just a direction of motion. In the world in which we live, we experience three dimensions: up/down, left/right, and forward/back. If there exists another dimension, then this means that there is another direction out there, one that we cannot move in and so have no word for, but which nevertheless exists. There could, in fact, be many such extra dimensions: string theory predicts that there are a total of 10 space and time dimensions.

As for bending space/time requiring such massive amounts of energy as to render it unrealistic, I would suggest that you are thinking to much inside the box. I think we will develop exotic matter and the technology to utilize it to travel to the far galaxies. The experiments at LHC could at least be the start on that path.
Any new matter we find at the LHC is highly, highly unlikely to be both stable and interacting. And even if we could find such matter, the energy requirements don't just go away.
 
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max1120

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Thank you for your very informative reply. I hope however that you are wrong and that we can somehow use our expanding knowlage of physics to bring about something similar to a warp drive. Its contrabution to mankind would be huge. I think the begining of anything is the belief that it is possible. Many things have been discovered and invented that the prevailing view of the time said was "impossible". If we stoped due to the nay sayers we would be still in the dark ages. So I am hopeful. Although even I am a little sceptical of teleportation.

I would like to know what you think though of the work at LHC? Do you think there is any real danger of the creation of straglets? or micro-blackholes that would devour the earth? I am very doubtful of these things but I think you may know more on this than I . I would think that any black hole created would be much to small to cause alarm. What say you?
 
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Chalnoth

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Thank you for your very informative reply. I hope however that you are wrong and that we can somehow use our expanding knowlage of physics to bring about something similar to a warp drive. Its contrabution to mankind would be huge. I think the begining of anything is the belief that it is possible. Many things have been discovered and invented that the prevailing view of the time said was "impossible". If we stoped due to the nay sayers we would be still in the dark ages. So I am hopeful. Although even I am a little sceptical of teleportation.
I think you'll find it difficult to find any such "impossible" things that have since been deemed possible since the advent of modern science, provided you look to the consensus of the scientific community for what is and is not possible.

I would like to know what you think though of the work at LHC? Do you think there is any real danger of the creation of straglets? or micro-blackholes that would devour the earth? I am very doubtful of these things but I think you may know more on this than I . I would think that any black hole created would be much to small to cause alarm. What say you?
There is effectively zero danger for the generation of any dangerous particles. If anything dangerous were created at the LHC, it would have been created many times over by high-energy cosmic rays, rays which have energies as much as a million times greater than anything that will be produced at the LHC. As a result, if any such dangerous particles were created, either the Earth itself would have long since been destroyed, or other objects in the galaxy, such as neutron stars, would be routinely destroyed by such processes, which we don't see.
 
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