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garry2

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So you don't believe the scripture i posted, like i said before, your problem.
 
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Biblewriter

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I will not even bother to respond to most of what you write, for it is composed mostly of opinions, backed up by nothing. It is pointless to claim again and again that the scriptures do not teach this or that "anywhere."

The truth is that you do not see these things in scripture, but to substantiate any of your assertions, you need to cite express scripture, which is notably lacking in most of your posts.

But here you finally get more specific, finally quoting some of the scriptures you base your opinions upon.

You are assuming that the passages in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and 2 Thessalonians 2 are speaking of the same event as 1 Thessalonians 4. But unless you can demonstrate this from scripture, and not just keep on insisting that your interpretations are correct, you are wasting your (and our) time.
 
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Bible2

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garry2 posted in message #61:

So you don't believe the scripture i posted, like i
said before, your problem.

Which scripture? Revelation 3:10 back in message #47?
If so, Revelation 3:10 can be believed without one
having to believe in a pre-trib rapture, for
Revelation 3:10 makes no reference to a pre-trib
rapture, but only refers to the first-century local
church congregation in Philadelphia in the Roman
province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) being kept from
a first-century persecution that came upon all the
Roman world, in which persecution the faithful first-
century church of Smyrna in the Roman province of
"Asia" had to suffer and die at the hands of Satan
(Revelation 2:10).
 
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Bible2

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Biblewriter posted in message #62:

I will not even bother to respond to most of what you
write, for it is composed mostly of opinions, backed
up by nothing.

What is the opinion that "it is composed mostly of
opinions, backed up by nothing" backed up with?

Which opinions were backed up with nothing, not even
common sense? And which have been proven wrong with
scripture?

Biblewriter posted in message #62:

It is pointless to claim again and again that the
scriptures do not teach this or that "anywhere."

But it isn't pointless to claim that "it is
pointless" to make that claim?

It isn't pointless to claim again and again that the
scriptures do not teach this or that "anywhere", if
that is in fact the case, and has not been proven
otherwise.

For example, the scriptures do not teach a pre-trib
rapture anywhere.

Biblewriter posted in message #62:

The truth is that you do not see these things in
scripture, but to substantiate any of your assertions,
you need to cite express scripture, which is notably
lacking in most of your posts.

Which things in scripture are not being seen? How have
they been proven to actually be in scripture instead
of being cases of eisegesis?

Which posts were notably lacking scripture? Which ones
have been proven wrong with scripture?

Biblewriter posted in message #62:

But here you finally get more specific, finally
quoting some of the scriptures you base your opinions
upon.

Which opinions weren't based on referenced scripture,
or just common sense?


One doesn't have to assume anything to acknowledge
that Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 are speaking of the same event
as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, for they are all speaking
of the second coming and the gathering/catching-up
together of the Church.

When has it been proven that they aren't all speaking
of the same event? It would take a pretty big
assumption on one's part to think that they aren't.
 
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zeke37

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Originally Posted by Bible2
All the believers who will be on the earth during the
tribulation (e.g. Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13) will
be part of the Church, for there are no believers
outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-5), no matter
whether they're Israeli or not (1 Corinthians 12:13).

so, a believer is part of the church, the body of Christ...I agree...
with scripture quotes, we can all know where each other is coming from...
and there are believers on the earth during the beasts reign....I agree...for Rev11 shows the two witnesses (both the two candlesticks and then the two olive trees against the beast during the hour of temptation, before the 7th trump....so there are believers here on earth then...

most of the Christians (who love God and go to church) will go apostate according to 2Thes2 and follow this son of Perdition who claims to be God (Christ returned), but some stay faithful untill the end, standing with the truth and the Spirit, witnessing against the beast (Luke21, Rev10-11).....these faithful are the incorruptible/immortal subject's of 1Cor15's mystery...they do not die, but are changed....gathered together with the returning dead in Christ...as firstfruits when they are raised to life on earth again.


So only part of the Church will be in the third heaven
(the place of God's throne) during the tribulation:
that part of the Church which has died and gone to the
third heaven (e.g. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians
5:8),

agreed again...many uncountable thousands are in this group....from all of time....anyone who has died in the flesh and has believed on Jesus Christ.

Christ has prepared resting places (Mansions) for all who now believe in Him or died believing in Him. From the foundations of the world age, till the final hour of temptation....

I do not agree that the 3rd heaven is a reference to the throne of God, as I do not believe that the 1st heaven (in relation) is the sky, although I do understand that sometimes one could understand heaven as meaning sky in certain instances. The 3rd heaven is a reference to the time after the Judgement...after the Millennium. The age...

3 distinct ages spoken of in God's Word...

1=before the foundations of the world, an unknown time frame between Gen1:1 and Gen1:2,

2=this flesh life that we now have, from Gen1:2 until the end of the Millennium
3=the time of reward after Judgement, of complete and utter Paradise forever without sin...without Satan...after the temple (us) has been cleansed.

Mat12:32 speaks of this age and the next age to come...using the word world, this time the greek word is aion, meaning time or age...not the earth
and 2Pet3 speaks of the first (before the foundation), this present one and the end of this one...

Paul was taken to this 3rd age time, Paradise forever here on earth with the Father.....and could not adequately describe the things he saw...

and the 144,000 part of the Church, the "man
child" part, which will be caught up to the third
heaven right before the 42-month reign of the
Antichrist begins (Revelation 12:5-6, 14:1-5).

ok, you lost me here....the 144,000 are from the whole 12 tribes of Israel, including both houses, which are

scattered Israel the10 northern tribes called the House of Israel, who went into captivity under the Assyrian and were dispersed, eventually settling Europe and migrating into the Christian nations of today basically) sands of the sea. kept the name Israel, and uses Ephraim aswell-the largest of the northern tribes.

they (on whole) did not return from their captivity under the Assyrian but became and mingled into other peoples....basically the Christian European nations, west of the Caucusis mountains.

and

the Jews of today (the southern tribe of Judah)....who along with the tribe of Benjamin make up the House of Judah...who did return from their captivity under the babylonian.

so, there is in prophesy...the house of Israel, and the house of Judah, and the WHOLE house of Israel (both north and south houses, also called spiritual Israel)


the 144,000 are from ALL the Whole house of Israel, and are sealed with the truth before any of the winds start their blowing...IOW before the trib hour starts, as Rev7 begins with...

and by the tribulations end, after God Himself speaks through the witnessing elect of Rev10-11, they shall come out of their captivity (Babylon) and join the witnessing elect as part of the bride of Christ that is considered spiritual virgins and worthy to marry the Groom. They shall be Gathered to Christ when He comes with the dead believers at the very last trump/the 7th...which is the trump of God....and they shall be considered the firstfruits...and are part of the first ressurection



Where are they caught up to God before the tribulation?
I do not see that part.

I see the woman in the wilderness, as John was, as Christ was...that is protection....not escapism. and it is not in the 3rd heaven, but right here on good ole earth....kept safe in that time...

they are protected by God through the tribulation, kept in it, safe! not removed from the planet...but removed or kept from temptation, because they know that the first one to come is Satan come to fool us all, not a rapturing Jesus....thus they cannot be tempted by the flood of lies that come out of the dragon's mouth when he is here for a short season pretending to be Jesus Christ returned. (they are sealed with the truth)

we can also see the candlesticks defined as the churches in Rev1-3, and two of them are seen against the beast in Rev11. Simple enough for a child to understand really but many here do not see the 2 churches as the 2 candlesticks////. The two candlesticks (part of the two witnesses along with the individual 2 olive trees) Smyrna and Philadelphia are against the beast...and the rest of the 7 churches are apostate... thus I see the two church types of Smyrna and Philadelphia as comprising the elect witnesses, also seen in Zec4


The Bible nowhere teaches that the rapture (the
gathering together) of the whole Church will happen
before the tribulation, or that the rapture (the
gathering together) of the whole Church will take the
Church into the third heaven. Instead, the Bible
teaches that the rapture (the gathering together)
of the whole Church will happen after the tribulation
(Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians
2:1-8), and that it will only take the Church into the
first heaven (the sky) to meet Jesus on His way down
to the earth at His second coming (1 Thessalonians
4:15-17).

well, that is closer to the way I understand events to come. I don't see the redundancy of going UP to meet Him and then coming right back down again though....I understand it is a figure of speech....symbolic but none the less probably not what was meant.

We know that we shall all be changed into the spirit body...1Cor15...as the angels....when He comes

and Paul would teach that the believers are like a great cloud of witnesses in Heb12:1....



instead, the greek more properly (as I understand it) says that when Christ comes here to the earth at the 7th/last trump/trump of God, to gather together the firstfruits....He brings with Him the dead from heaven as per 1Thes4:13-18....who are today in their spiritual bodies in heaven with Christ, waiting for their return to earth and...being patient...(Rev6)
these dead in Christ are coming here in their new bodies(1Cor15, 1Thes4), to be gathered with those elect alive one arth at the time.....to be raised to life on earth again, not in flesh bodies, but in the same celestial/spiritual/heavenly body as the dead have now while they wait patiently to come back here with Jesus.....their flesh is long since been ashes and dust...but they have these celestial bodies in heaven now, and will return here with them...and when they do come, we are all changed to be like them...

all of us that are alive on earth at that time, are changed into that same celestial/spiritual/heavenly body...at Christ's Coming, for heaven is coming here with our Lord, and flesh cannot inherit heaven. We shall ALL be changed to incorruption for the Millennium. 1Cor15....the first fruits being Immortal, the rest (those that went apostate) needing refinement....in the Millennium

the word used for this spiritual body is sometimes "air" and sometimes "spirit" and sometimes "wind" or "breath" or "breath of life" or "blow"....the Strong's Concordance is a valuable tool for serious scholars
air is just one of many ways to say that we who are alive at His coming (when He brings the dead with Him) shall meet those spiritual bodied individuals, in our new bodies, because we are all going to be changed into what they are....as the angels are.



biblewriter says in response to Bible2's post:
I will not even bother to respond to most of what you write, for it is composed mostly of opinions, backed up by nothing. It is pointless to claim again and again that the scriptures do not teach this or that "anywhere."

The truth is that you do not see these things in scripture, but to substantiate any of your assertions, you need to cite express scripture, which is notably lacking in most of your posts.

But here you finally get more specific, finally quoting some of the scriptures you base your opinions upon.

You are assuming that the passages in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and 2 Thessalonians 2 are speaking of the same event as 1 Thessalonians 4. But unless you can demonstrate this from scripture, and not just keep on insisting that your interpretations are correct, you are wasting your (and our) time.


likewise, you asume that they are not speaking of the same time, so likewise you have the same responsibility or else the same waist of time applies to your posts.


I can show that the dead are coming back with Christ to be Gathered, showing that it is the same time....not years apart. You have not answered this as of yet...

do you really believe that the dead come with Christ to gather us pre trib? And then boogie back to heaven and wait out the last hour?

Because I believe that the dead will come back at His 2nd Coming/Gathering, not before. So, if we see a passage that speaks of the dead coming back here, or the ressurection of the dead, it is about post tribulation Gathering to Christ, when the dead elect are gathered from heaven, and the elect alive are gathered from earth....and we know that happens after the tribulation of those days according to Mat24, Mar13, which is at the last trump1Cor15, which is the trump of God 1Thes4, which is the 7th Rev11, 14...and can only be after the time described in 2Thes2's apostate church and after the son of perdition is revealed for who he is, (2Thes2:1-4 ), by Christ's mere Coming, (2Thes2:8)

2Thes2 is teaching us about the Gathering to Christ which is exactly what the other passages are teaching. I fail to see how you can think that the are not related? By His Coming and our Gathgering to Him. that is the subject...if you see this as another time, then it is you that has the problemto prove. we are not to be ignorant bretheren...let no man fool you, for the Gathering to Christ cannot happen until after the son of Perdition claims to be God, and after the church as a whole believes the lie, goes apostate and worships this son of Perdition as God...

and it is actually Christ's Coming that reveals to the world exactly who is who and Who is Who. It is Christians who are deceived into worshiping the fallen angel Satan, as Christ, and it is Jesus' true Appearing post tribulation, that shows the world that they have been worshiping a fake during the hour of temptation. Then they hide in the mountains of shame.

and at Christ's Coming, after the tribulation of that time, then the gathering of election happens, from both heaven and earth...as the very adequate quotes state...Mat24:29-31, Mar13:24-27, 1Thes4 and 1Cor15 all speak of the same time when the elect are gathered from heaven and earth and joined together....and 2Thes2 tells us what must happen first, before that time, which is the church going apostate (leaving the faith) and the revealing of the man of sin / the son of Perdition (by Christ presence upon arrival).

2Thes2 simply teaches that the fake must come first, and is the reason for the apostasy....because the fake is the son of Perdition (Satan Ez28, cast from heaven to the earth for a short season Rev12) a supernatural fallen angel with abilities that will fool the world into worshiping him as the lamb slain...(Rev13:11)

I fail to see why you think it is a separate time...God is quite able to sustain us through the worst fire, or wrath.....if He is not mad at you, then, His wrath won't hurt you at all...you could be in the fiery furnace !!! or a den of lions !!! or even the valley of the shadow of death........and the elect are promised protection in Luke21...complete protection.




in His service
c
 
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zeke37

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the Devil is coming here playing church, not lopping heads off....he is going to pretend to be Jesus come to rapture you away...don't be the one taken in the flood that is coming...don't be the one harvested out of season...


remember the Assyrian's captivity

he comes again, but this time, not in type....and we all go into captivity...after all, it is the hour of temptation, not the hour of partying in heaven at a wedding feast while bretherin are being prosecuted for Christ, on earth.
 
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I have not been here a while so this kind of late. Here is my response:
First, I'm reading the replies.
Second, this description of the evolution theory is wrong. Punctuated equilibrium. A theory of evolution that does NOT fit that description.
Third, I did not relate it with the big bang, I asked were the universe came from to start evolution. They can't agree on that.
Fourth, evolutions can't explain where the universe came from so THEY no US invited the alien theory.
Fifth, you are clearly ignorant of the Evangelical\Catholic debate. And who cares if we disagree, one may not then be Christian. Evolution has a million sects that never agree on anything.
Sixth, you have no idea about evolution. It is not a set of absolutes. There are more evolutionary sects than denominations. If you think I don't know it's because YOU have not done YOUR homework and don't know the evolution theories.
Seventh, again, they don't agree that evolution is mutation. Some believe it is instant. And there is no such thing as a Theologist.
Eight, if Christianity is wrong and evolution is right, the we live happy lives then nothing. If Christianity is right (As the evidence suggests, though you would not admit it since you don't do your research) and evolution wrong, you people suffer in hell forever. Who is running a higher risk?
Ninth, you have admitted that your theory gets it wrong all the time and has to be changed, quite funny.
Tenth, people have been looking for an error in The Bible for 2,000 years. The total count today? 0. Not one. Every alleged error has been refuted.
Lastly, this has nothing to do with you and we don't want to hear you. This is not about evolution and don't care what the latest critics wind bag argument is. Don't you have anything better to do than try to convince people there worthless and has no purpose?
 
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onwingsaseagles

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I am a Historical pre-millennialist. which is the teaching of Jesus the Apostles and the original church. They taught that Jesus would return after the tribulation, to resurrect the just, translate the living saints, destroy the wicked, and restore the earthly fleshly Jews to the true Israel of God. At this point Jesus sets up His Kingdom here on earth reigns for 1,000 years. Satan is released from the pit leads a rebellion, then is the white throne Judgment the wicked are cast into the lake of fire and New Jerusalem descends from Heaven, where the righteous will spend eternity with Christ.

Again this is the teaching of Jesus, the Apostles and original church, it is 100% biblical and includes a post trib rapture, not the pretrib rapture.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Who are those seated on thrones who had been given authority to judge?

1Cr 6:2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

Dan 7:9 “As I looked,

“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
Dan 7:10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.

Dan 7:11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.



Rev 7:14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;




Why are the martyrs given "bridal clothes" and told more martyrs must happen before final judgment? Who are the "more martyrs" in Revelation if not those who die at the hands of the beast?

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar (current place of the souls of the dead according to Enoch 1) the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. (part of the Bride, right?)
Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Rev 6:11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. (and then what?...God will judge!)



White robes are the Bridal clothes! The Bridal clothes we will be given are the glorified bodies, fit for standing before the throne of God (Rev 7).

Rev 19:8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”
 
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Biblewriter

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The post trib rapture is an assumption about the meaning of the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. They never said it. They said things you interpret to mean that.

As to the teachings of the early church, we simply do not know what they taught about this. The earliest non-Biblical Christian writer on prophecy that we know about was Papias, who was reputed to have been a personal student of the Apostle John. Almost everything he wrote was destroyed. We only have a few tiny fragments. But several hundred years later, in his famous history of the church, Eusebius lamented the fact that so many of the early Christian writers had followed the teachings of Papias, which he considered erroneous. What did these "many" writers teach? We do not know, for their writings, being not accepted by the time of Eusebius, were almost all destroyed. So any claim about what they taught is purely speculative.

But one document clearly teaching a pre-trib rapture has come down to us from somewhere around the period of 350 to 650 A.D. It alleges to have been written by someone called Ephraim. But as modern scholars do not think he was actually the author, they call the author of this document "pseudo-Ephraim." My personal opinion is that calling him "pseudo-Ephraim" neglects the possibility that whoever wrote this document might have been a different person who was also named Ephraim. So evidence that the writer was not the famous Ephraim does not necessarily indicate that the document was a forgery.
 
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Bible2

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zeke37 posted in message #65:

Paul was taken to this 3rd age time, Paradise forever
here on earth with the Father.....

Actually, the third heaven is a past, present, and
future place, just as paradise is past, present, and
future place. That's why Jesus could say to someone
who was about to die in the first century:

"To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43).

The location of the literal tree of life shows that
paradise is a literal place located within the
literal city of New Jerusalem in the third heaven:

"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the
tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise
of God" (Revelation 2:7).

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they
may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in
through the gates into the city" (Revelation 22:14).

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side
of the river, was there the tree of life" (Revelation
22:2).

---

The throne of God is also located in the third heaven,
which is the spiritual realm:

"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a
throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne"
(Revelation 4:2).

The second heaven is outer space, where the stars
reside:

"I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven"
(Genesis 22:17).

The first heaven is the sky, where the birds fly:

"... the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the
heaven, and the beasts of the field" (Ezekiel 38:20).

zeke37 posted in message #65:

... the 144,000 are from the whole 12 tribes of Israel ...

The 144,000 part of the Church is in the 12 tribes of
Israel, just as everyone in the Church is in the
12 tribes of Israel, for the Church is the 12 tribes
of Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b). Jews in the Church
remain members of the tribes they were born into
(Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36), and Gentiles in the Church
have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17) and so
have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel
47:22).

Any Gentile in the Church can ask Jesus which tribe
of Israel Jesus has grafted him into, and Jesus will
tell him. Most Gentiles don't have the knowledge of
which tribe they are a member of simply because they
have never asked Jesus for that knowledge; as the
saying goes, "ye have not, because ye ask not"
(James 4:2).

zeke37 posted in message #65:

... the 144,000 are from ALL the Whole house of Israel ...

Actually, none of the 144,000 part of the Church
will be from the tribe of Dan, for Dan isn't listed
in Revelation 7:4-8 as one of the 12 tribes of the
144,000 part of the Church. This could be because
the Antichrist could be descended from Dan
(cf. Genesis 49:17).

zeke37 posted in message #65:

... the 144,000 are ... sealed with the truth before
any of the winds start their blowing...IOW before the
trib hour starts

The 144,000 part of the Church won't be sealed until
Revelation 7:4, after the six seals of the
tribulation in Revelation 6 have already occurred.

zeke37 posted in message #65:

They shall be Gathered to Christ when He comes ...

Actually, at the second coming, after the
tribulation, the 144,000 part of the Church will come
from heaven with Jesus along with the dead part of
the Church, because the 144,000 part of the Church
will be caught up into heaven as the "man child"
(Revelation 12:5, 14:1-5) a few years before the
second coming, right before the 42-month reign of the
Antichrist begins (Revelation 12:5-6, cf. 13:5b).

zeke37 posted in message #65:

... Christ when He comes with the dead believers at
the very last trump/the 7th ...

The 7th trumpet of the tribulation (Revelation 11:15)
isn't the "last trump" of the resurrection and rapture
(1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), as
that last trumpet won't sound until after the
tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), which includes the
vials of wrath of Revelation 16. The vials of wrath
could come out of the temple-opening of 7th trumpet
of the tribulation (Revelation 11:19, 15:5-6:1). The
Church will still be on the earth during the vials
of wrath of Revelation 16, still waiting for Jesus'
coming as a thief upon the world (Revelation 16:15).

zeke37 posted in message #65:

... raised to life on earth again, not in flesh bodies ...

The Church will be resurrected into immortal flesh
bodies, just as Jesus was:

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:
handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and
bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39).

"... Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body,
that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body"
(Philippians 3:20b-21).

Our current bodies aren't vile because they are
flesh, but because they are mortal and corruptible.

zeke37 posted in message #65:

... flesh cannot inherit heaven ...

Thats's not what 1 Corinthians 15:50 means; it only
means that mortal, corruptible flesh cannot inherit
the eternal kingdom of God.

zeke37 posted in message #65:

... the elect are promised protection in Luke21...
complete protection.

That's not what Luke 21:18 means; what it means is
that even if we are martyred in the tribulation
(Luke 21:16b, Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10,
14:12-13, 20:4) our eternal souls will not be
affected at all (Luke 21:19).
 
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Bible2

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Biblewriter posted in message #71:

The post trib rapture is an assumption about the
meaning of the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.
They never said it.

Jesus and the apostle Paul said very clearly that the
rapture will be after the tribulation (Matthew
24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), for
Jesus' coming to gather together the Church must
destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's
why the Church will have to suffer and die under the
Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).


Whether "pseudo-Ephraem" is a forgery or not is
irrelevant insofar that if it teaches a pre-trib
rapture it teaches contrary to scripture, for
nowhere does scripture ever teach a pre-trib rapture,
but even expressly teaches against it (2 Thessalonians
2:1-8, cf. Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27,
Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).
 
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zeke37

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there is no martyrdom in the Millennium at all....except for the two witnesses-Olive Trees....God's elect are needed and wanted by God. They have a mission to complete....they cannot fail this mission, for they were chosen for it...God will supernaturally protect the elect in the final hour....Luke 21's warning is very specific to the final hour....and death spoken of is one of Satan's names...he has it's power...Heb12

and Satan is not allowed to kill anyone, not those with the mark of the beast... Rev9, not those with God's seal, for the time was even shortened for the elect's sake to 5 months...it is not about beheadings....it is about trickery...Satan pretending to be Jesus Christ....playing church, not murdering all who oppose him....

spiritual death is not literal death....and Satan is causing many to become spiritually dead....but God will raise up an army, a spiritual army



there is a group that will witness against the beast, and shall actually allow God to speak through them and He shall end this age with a witness against the beast....as the world hears God through this multitude, AT THE SAME TIME....in their very own home dialect....as seen in Acts2, and prophesied about in Joel2


these witnessing elect cannot be killed at all, ever...they live to be the ones that are gathered alive to Christ and the returning dead in Christ (including the two witnesses that were killed)

same time....

Christ's return.


in His service
c
 
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Biblewriter

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Again, you are doing nothing but insisting that your interpretations of scripture are correct, without offering a shred of evidence to back up upor claims.

Are you here to vent your emotions, or to convince people of something?

Simply insisting that you are right will never convince anyone of anything. To persuade anyone, you must give reasons to believe what you say. This, you have consistently failed to do.

The current post is a typical example. You insist that "Jesus and the apostle Paul very clearly said that the rapture would be after the tribulation." In saying this, you referred to scriptures that we all know about, but you simply assumed that it should be obvious to everyone that these scriptures speak about the rapture.

This assumption on your part is based on a nearly complete failure to understand what the debate is about. You are so absolutely convinced that the scriptures only speak of one future coming of Christ that you utterly fail to see that others see some of these scriptures as speaking of one future coming and others of them as speaking of a different future coming. Since you fail to understand this, you fail to successfully address the (as you see it) misunderstanding. Instead, you simply insist that you are right, a technique whose only advantage is that it makes you feel better.

Basically, unless they are really only here to learn, everyone here came here because they think they have an understanding of scripture, and they want to pass that understanding along to others. To do that, a person has to convince them that that his (or her) own ideas are more correct than their own. But there is only one way to do that. That is to first try to understand what the other person is saying, then try to demonstrate what the error in their thinking is. Until you start at least trying to do this, you will never convince anyone of anything.

You could start by trying to understand why we say that the scriptures speak of two future comings of Jesus, not just one. Simply denying that this is correct will never convince anyone. Instead, look at what we say and try to understand where the error in our thinking lies.

But in order to do that, you will have to learn to do something new. You will have to learn to listen. Until you do this, you will never make even one convert to your way of thinking.
 
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Bible2

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The third heaven today is where it was in the past
and where it will be in the future, just as the first
and second heavens today are where they were in the
past and where they will be in the future.

zeke37 posted in message #74:

... the time that Paul saw was a future time, a
perfect time....

The place that Paul saw was a present place, and a
past place and a future place: the third heaven,
paradise (2 Corinthians 12:2-7).

zeke37 posted in message #74:

....the time after Judgement.

The time after the white throne judgement (Revelation
20:11-15) will be the time of the new earth, when
the New Jerusalem will descend out of heaven so that
God might live with us down on the new earth
(Revelation 21:1-3). So if Paul had gone to that time,
he would have referred to it as the new earth, not the
third heaven.

zeke37 posted in message #74:

... the 3rd or highest "age" not level of heaven...

Paul didn't say that he was caught up to a "third
age" but to the "third heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:2-7).

zeke37 posted in message #74:

... there is no biblical basis for levels of heaven ...

There is: the first heaven is the sky or atmosphere, in
which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20). The second heaven
is outer space, where the stars reside (Genesis 22:17).
The third heaven is the place of God's throne, the
spiritual realm above the first and second heavens
(Revelation 4:1b-2).

zeke37 posted in message #74:

... but there is basis for an age "before the
foundation of the world{age}" ...

Any age before the foundation of this age would have
also contained three heavens, if the earth and its
atmosphere existed before the foundation of this
particular age.

Every translation-reference to "foundation of the
world" in the KJV Bible (Matthew 13:35, 25:34, Luke
11:50, John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, Hebrews 4:3, 9:26,
1 Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8, 17:8) is based on the
original Greek word "kosmos" (Strongs #2889), which
doesn't mean "age", but could include the entire
Creation, the earth and all three heavens. So a
reference to "before the foundation of the kosmos"
could mean before God created anything at all, even
heaven itself (Genesis 1:1).


The new heaven and earth could mean a brand new
surface to the earth and a brand new atmosphere, or
first heaven, to the earth, while the second heaven,
outer space, remains unrenewed, and the third heaven,
the place of God's throne, needs no renewal.

Don't think that unsaved uncle Bob won't be in torment
in the lake of fire on the new earth, for the lake of
fire will be just outside the walls of New Jerusalem
on the new earth (Revelation 22:15, 21:8), so that
the saved will go out and look at the unsaved in
torment forever in the lake of fire, also called
Gehenna (Isaiah 66:22,24, Mark 9:45b-6, Revelation
14:10-11, 20:10,15).

That's why Revelation 21:8 is spoken right after
Revelation 21:4 -- they'll be at the same time on the
new earth -- the eternal fate of the unsaved and the
eternal fate of the saved will co-exist on the new
earth forever (Matthew 25:41,46).
 
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Bible2

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zeke37 posted in message #74:

... this is the time after Judgement....that is what
Paul say, not levels of heaven. That is sci-fi
fantasy ...

Three levels of heaven aren't sci-fi fantasy, for
even real science divides between the atmosphere
(the first heaven) and outer space (the second
heaven), and, although it's not proven, non-fictional
science (String Theory, based on mathematics)
postulates more than three spatial dimensions to this
universe. The third heaven is the spiritual realm
where God's throne is (Revelation 4:2, 2 Corinthians
12:2), and this realm could exist in three higher
spatial dimensions, so that the Creation, including
the spiritual realm, could consist of at least seven
dimensions: six spatial dimensions (three physical
and three spiritual) and one temporal dimension.

And this is a conservative number of dimensions, for
String Theory posits that there could be something
like eleven dimensions to this universe.

So the third heaven could very well be in higher
spatial dimensions. And it could be in our same
temporal dimension, so that the third heaven has
existed in our past, exists in our present, and
will exist in our future. Nothing requires that the
third heaven will only exist in some future age.


It doesn't have to be mentioned. Clearly, the New
Jerusalem, a cube 1500 miles across (Revelation
21:16), is not now hovering in the first heaven, our
sky or atmosphere. Nor does anything require that
God is living in the New Jerusalem somewhere in outer
space, the second heaven. No, Paul was caught up to
paradise, in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-7),
and paradise is in New Jerusalem, for the tree of
life is in paradise (Revelation 2:7), and the tree of
life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:14, 22:2); so
New Jerusalem is now necessarily in the third heaven,
the spiritual realm.

zeke37 posted in message #74:

... but if you wanna know the truth, the Tree of Life
is Christ ...

While Christ is the life (John 14:6), the source of
our eternal life spiritually (John 3:16), the tree of
life could be for the eternal life of our resurrection
bodies, just as Adam's physical body would have lived
forever if he had eaten of the tree of life (Genesis
3:22). The leaves of the tree of life could also help
speed the healing (Revelation 22:2b) of our
resurrection bodies should they ever be injured by
accident.

And we may still have to eat other foods for our
nourishment even after our resurrection, just as the
angels may have to eat (Psalms 78:25).

Having to eat food is a good thing as it is a daily
reminder of our dependence on God for our continued
existence. This will be important to remember
especially after our resurrection, so that we don't
become proud and rebellious against God like happened
with the angel Lucifer.
 
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Bible2

Guest

The scriptures were given as the evidence; the claims
are based on what the referenced scriptures say. One
will have to prove that the claims are false by
referencing other scriptures which one feels
contradicts the claims, or one will have to show
how the referenced scriptures do not support the
claims. This has not been done.

Biblewriter posted in message #75:

Are you here to vent your emotions, or to convince
people of something?

Can one give examples of "venting of emotions"? Isn't
this nothing but ad hominem, trying to attack the
poster personally instead of addressing the points
that he has made by referring to the scriptures
themselves?

Biblewriter posted in message #75:

Simply insisting that you are right will never
convince anyone of anything. To persuade anyone, you
must give reasons to believe what you say. This, you
have consistently failed to do.

The reasons were included in the claims and supported
by what the referenced scriptures say. One will have
to prove that the referenced scriptures do not support
the beliefs which have been presented. If one fails to
address any of the points which have been made together
with the referenced scriptures, and one resorts to mere
ad hominem rhetoric, one has sadly stopped the
discussion dead in its tracks, has kept it from moving
forward as an exploration of what the scriptures
themselves teach.


It should be obvious to any reader with an open mind
that Paul is referring to the same coming of Jesus and
gathering together of the Church in 2 Thessalonians
2:1-8 as Jesus is referring to in Matthew 24:29-31.
There's no scriptural reason whatsoever to think that
they aren't the same. It would only be because of man-
made reasons, man-made ideas, the wishes of men, that
people would want to try to separate them.


Actually, one should assume that there is only one
future coming of Christ, for that is all the Bible
ever refers to. It never refer to future comings
(plural) of Christ, but always to the singular future
coming of Christ.

Also, there is no scriptural reason to assume that
the various descriptions of that singular future
coming require plural future comings. No scriptural
proof has ever been presented that they do, so any
insistence that they do would be only because some
men wish that the Church won't have to go through the
coming tribulation, despite the Bible showing clearly
that some in the Church will have to suffer and die
during that time (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13, 20:4,
Matthew 24:9-13).
 
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Bible2

Guest

Someone can't be convinced of the error of their
thinking except by the scriptures themselves
(2 Timothy 3:16). If they have so twisted the meaning
of some of those scriptures to fit their own wishes,
such as the Church not going through the tribulation,
then they can no longer read the scriptures with an
open mind; they are determined to read them in such
a way that makes them feel better, and so they have
cut themselves off from the instruction which only
the scriptures themselves can give them (2 Timothy
3:16).

At that point, no human discussion is going to change
their minds one bit. Only a divine intervention by
the Holy Spirit Himself, perhaps through a dream, or
a sudden revelation in their spirit, will open their
minds up again so that they can read the scriptures
for what the scriptures themselves say, and not for
what some people merely wish that they said.

So all humans can do is share the scriptures with
others, and pray that the Holy Spirit will open the
minds of their correspondents to be able to read the
scriptures without any preconceived notions or wishes.

That's why scriptural references are given after
claims are made, so that the discussion can always
return to what the scriptures themselves say, and not
devolve into a merely rhetorical, ad hominem back-and-
forth.

So if one feels that the scriptural references given
after a point do not support that point, one must be
able to prove from the scriptures themselves that the
scriptural references do not support that point,
instead of merely claiming without any proof that they
don't, for that stops the discussion of the scriptures
themselves dead in its tracks, and turns the thread
into merely an "is too", "is not", dispute of no
benefit to anyone (2 Timothy 2:14).


Which specific reasons have been given for thinking
that there is more than one future coming of Christ
which have not already been answered and shown to be
in error? And which of these answers has not been
ignored, by either not being replied to at all, or
replied to with only ad hominem rhetoric?

Biblewriter posted in message #75:

But in order to do that, you will have to learn to do
something new. You will have to learn to listen.
Until you do this, you will never make even one
convert to your way of thinking.

What has not been listened to? What has not been
replied to in detail? What reply has not been ignored
and answered only with personal accusations?
 
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zeke37

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The third heaven today is where it was in the past
and where it will be in the future, just as the first
and second heavens today are where they were in the
past and where they will be in the future.

na, not three heavens....

there are three ages....
Paul was taken to the one and only heaven, but in the age after Judgement...You might study the "foundations of the world" in scripture, or even world alone....in the NT....

The place that Paul saw was a present place, and a
past place and a future place: the third heaven,
paradise (2 Corinthians 12:2-7).

no, Paul saw the third age of existance, heaven on earth.....after Judgement...no evil...all perfect...
zeke37 posted in message #74:

....the time after Judgement.
The time after the white throne judgement (Revelation
20:11-15) will be the time of the new earth, when
the New Jerusalem will descend out of heaven so that
God might live with us down on the new earth
(Revelation 21:1-3). So if Paul had gone to that time,
he would have referred to it as the new earth, not the
third heaven.

both are true, for it is new heaven on new earth.....right here, same earth as we have now....rejuvinated...with all the evil rudiments burnt up...

perfect....the age after Judgement...Paul could not even describe it adequately.

Paul didn't say that he was caught up to a "third
age" but to the "third heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:2-7).

there is not three separate heavens as many suppose, but there is three ages explicitely taught in scripture...many don't see it though....

this world or the world to come... Mat 12:32(world is the word _aion in greek, meaning a time, not place...but an age)

Paul is drawing from that, teaching the third heaven age...or fartherest out beacuse there is only three ages.....the highest heaven in a respect...

there are not three separate places called heaven, plains of existance or whatever...levels....no.

there is one....and it existed before the foundation of this world, and it exists now, and it shall exist in the future....Paradise right here on earth forever and ever....that is what Paul saw.

levels of heaven?
There is: the first heaven is the sky or atmosphere, in
which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20). The second heaven
is outer space, where the stars reside (Genesis 22:17).
The third heaven is the place of God's throne, the
spiritual realm above the first and second heavens
(Revelation 4:1b-2).

na, but close.....





But now I think I see what you mean....

language has changed and translation have been imperfectly translated...

there is no teaching of levels of heaven, but it is true that some translators did translate heaven as sky...but not in the manuscripts


the word in Gen1:20 is not heaven at all in hebrew, but


H8064 - from the Strong's
שׁמה שׁמים
shâmayim shâmeh
shaw-mah'-yim, shaw-meh'
The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).


this word is never meant to imply heaven, where God is,....but rather the physical confinds of our sky and stars...man has allowed it to mean what youb think...and that is the error in the thinking that there is three heavens...because the manuscripts do not teach that

Paul was taken to a future time, a place called Perfection, kinda like as John was caught up in his spirit to the Lord's Day, to receive the Revelation of Christ,

Paul was caught up to the time after all the troubles and after all evil men have been destroyed....the promise that believers have to look forward to...the foreverafter...bliss and wonder...


Every translation-reference to "foundation of the
world" in the KJV Bible (Matthew 13:35, 25:34, Luke
11:50, John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, Hebrews 4:3, 9:26,
1 Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8, 17:8) is based on the
original Greek word "kosmos" (Strongs #2889), which
doesn't mean "age", but could include the entire
Creation, the earth and all three heavens. So a
reference to "before the foundation of the kosmos"
could mean before God created anything at all, even
heaven itself (Genesis 1:1).

foundations of the world does say kosmos.....I know, but there are many other times when world means aion in greek, or age to us...I listed one above in Mat12:32...there is an age to come....and there is an age in the past which is the reason for this middle age of flesh man. but study the foundations anyway, as it is the 1st age...


The new heaven and earth could mean a brand new
surface to the earth and a brand new atmosphere, or
first heaven, to the earth, while the second heaven,
outer space, remains unrenewed, and the third heaven,
the place of God's throne, needs no renewal.

it means paradise right here on this very earth, forever and ever, after God has rejuvinated it in the Lord's Day, as he refines some believers then as well.......


Don't think that unsaved uncle Bob won't be in torment
in the lake of fire on the new earth, for the lake of
fire will be just outside the walls of New Jerusalem
on the new earth (Revelation 22:15, 21:8), so that
the saved will go out and look at the unsaved in
torment forever in the lake of fire, also called
Gehenna (Isaiah 66:22,24, Mark 9:45b-6, Revelation
14:10-11, 20:10,15).

na, that is done away with as well...there shall be not even one bad thought in Paradise Forever...God shall totally blot out of existance all evil people and angels...all badness just won't be here at all....not even to fry...

our God does not get off on people suffering...there would be no need for Him to sentence folks to eternal torture on one side of the fence....and bliss on the other...especially if there was no chance for change...no lesson to be LEARNED...

na, all badness is going to be completely blotted out of existance...uncle bob and Satan both....as I understand it, even the very thought of them...poooof gone forever.

That's why Revelation 21:8 is spoken right after
Revelation 21:4 -- they'll be at the same time on the
new earth -- the eternal fate of the unsaved and the
eternal fate of the saved will co-exist on the new
earth forever (Matthew 25:41,46).

the result of God completely blotting a soul out in the lake of Fire, is eternal....it lasts forever...pooof, no more...fear not man who can kill your flesh, but fear Him who can completely destroy(consume) your soul in the Lake of Fire...-our God is a consuming fire..

but they are resurrected to face Judgement...

Three levels of heaven aren't sci-fi fantasy, for
even real science divides between the atmosphere
(the first heaven) and outer space (the second
heaven), and, although it's not proven, non-fictional
science (String Theory, based on mathematics)
postulates more than three spatial dimensions to this
universe. The third heaven is the spiritual realm
where God's throne is (Revelation 4:2, 2 Corinthians
12:2), and this realm could exist in three higher
spatial dimensions, so that the Creation, including
the spiritual realm, could consist of at least seven
dimensions: six spatial dimensions (three physical
and three spiritual) and one temporal dimension.

And this is a conservative number of dimensions, for
String Theory posits that there could be something
like eleven dimensions to this universe.

So the third heaven could very well be in higher
spatial dimensions. And it could be in our same
temporal dimension, so that the third heaven has
existed in our past, exists in our present, and
will exist in our future. Nothing requires that the
third heaven will only exist in some future age.

I see what you are doing by error (just being honest)...but I am not desputing the fact that the bible does mention the sky, outerspace and heaven....in it's various ways...


the manuscripts are important, not the translations...






what you are saying is that when Paul mentions the third heaven, he is not referencing the sky and outerspace..but only heaven that has God's throne there....you are saying that sky is #1, outerspace is #2, and heaven where God resides, is #3


you are using the translators mis use of the word heaven in Gen1:20, as your basis...it means sky and/or outerspace, in your reasoning....,

while the manuscripts never alluded to heaven being called those things...sky and outerspace have their own hebrew/greek words ....it was a translator error....which was shown above.....



so there is really no basis for you ever calling the heavens 1-2-3, because sky and outerspace are NEVER even one time ever written of in the original texts, as heaven......do you see what I am saying...?



PAUL DID SAY 3rd heaven, and he was not in error comparing it to some idea that there are 3 heavens as in sky, outerspace and where God is....no....Paul knew the languages for himself...there was no translational error. He could read them....and he would not have read heaven in Gen1:20....he would have read what the manusacripts say...which is...


H8064 - from the Strong's
שׁמה שׁמים
shâmayim shâmeh
shaw-mah'-yim, shaw-meh'
The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).



Paul is taken to the final age of existance, after Judgement....the third


1-before the foundations, is an age
2-this one that is currently being held by His Word
3-the future paradise, after Judgement, when Heaven is remade here on this new earth...this third age is where Paul was taken to.


Paul was not taken to the heaven that existed in his time...but to a future place of complete and utter amazement...after Judgement...

and then he returned to tell us about it....a little...
no it does not...there is no third heaven mentioned
there ...
It doesn't have to be mentioned. Clearly, the New
Jerusalem, a cube 1500 miles across (Revelation
21:16), is not now hovering in the first heaven, our
sky or atmosphere.

correct, but that is not the first heaven...it is the sky or atmosphere...

Nor does anything require that
God is living in the New Jerusalem somewhere in outer
space, the second heaven.

correct, but that is not the second heaven...it is a translational error that you are still following

No, Paul was caught up to
paradise, in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-7),

ya, we both say that


and paradise is in New Jerusalem,

exactly....NEW JERUSALEM, a future time, not a level...and not around today


for the tree of
life is in paradise (Revelation 2:7), and the tree of
life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:14, 22:2); so
New Jerusalem is now necessarily in the third heaven,
the spiritual realm.

and??? Me thinks you take some things way to literally sometimes...NEW Jerusalem is a future place....a future time....Paul went to that future place, New Jeruslaem....the final, or highest, or the third (outa 3) age...saw some awsome stuff and told us about it.

 
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