End Times Debates

[snoochface]

I'm a very new Christian and I'm pretty lost about the various end-times debates I see here and there. I was reading a thread about the Left Behind books, which I'm reading now (I'm on the second-to-last book) and I never knew there was another point of view to the end times than the one presented in those books. Now I'm finding there are, apparently, several.

I hear pre-trib, post-trib, pre-millenial, post-millenial, amillenial, and I don't know what any of those things mean. I know what the tribulation period is supposed to be, or at least I think I do. But I don't know the different theories about how the end times are going to turn out.

I've done a Google search and was a little overwhelmed by the volume of information there was to sort through, and most of it seemed over my head from a Christianity stand-point. I've tried reading Revelation with my study Bible, but I found it very confusing. Is Revelation supposed to be taken literally like the Left Behind books portray it?

Can anyone help put this together for me? And is there an "accepted" view among most Biblical Christians? Thanks for any help.

 

[The Midge]

There is one more that you missed out- pan-millenial.

It will all pan out in the end.

There are so many opinions about the end times or Eschatology, if you want to be fancy about it, because the bible is not clear about the subject. That is because it is not all that important! The most important messages is that it could happen at any time and we need to get on with our lives in the mean time. See Pauls books to the Thessalonians.

They are there to encourage with the vision of Jesus' return and final victory, of God judging at the end of time and putting all to right by re-creating. The detail hows and whens are not all that important. There is not much we can do about it when it happens. Indeed, it is pointless to speculate about it.

If I were you I'd concentrate on other books and take assurance from the way the story ends. The story of the church; the continuation of Acts, is still being written. Just try to play your part in that section.

 

[Christ's Minister]

Trying to understand the end of the end times is difficult but very important because all of the events or "signs" that must occur before Jesus returns have now happened ,except one;the coming into power of the anti-Christ.Because the Bible states very clearly that the anti-Christ must be in power before the rapture occurs,up until 14 days ago I rejected the pre-tribulation theory that the vast majority of Christians accept.However on New Years Day,while I was writing a message in this forum,the Holy Spirit told me that the rapture will occur on the same day that the anti-Christ comes into power.So now we have that mystery resolved.

The Book of Revelation is full of symbols and words difficult to understand (ie. 'Mystery Babylon" is the name Jews in biblical days called the city of Rome)but it does describe in detail what will happen,as incredible as some of the events seem to us now.For instance,it states that every island in the world will be moved to a new location and covered with water. Guess what?Scientists discovered that happened to some Indonesian islands after the huge quake.

BOTTOM LINE:We need to catch the rapture,this place is getting really dangerous!No peace here anymore,have you noticed?

 

[TheDag]

A previous minister of mine said he was happy to debate any subject from the bible except for the first few chapters in genesis and revelation. The main reason for this is most people will stick to their views regardless. I think as long as you know the basics which would be to take note of the warnings in the letters to the churches. If you focus on growing as a christian, developing your relationship with God and following Gods will (which can sometimes be hard to figure out what it is for you personally sometimes) then you will be ready for the end times anyway. The bible does warn about just waiting for it to happen as being dangerous. So if your walking with God anyway then you'll be right in the end.

 

[TheDag]

...all of the events or "signs" that must occur before Jesus returns have now happened ,except one;the coming into power of the anti-Christ.

Christ's Minister just out of interest my involvement with various mission groups and having attended mission conferences I have found the overwhelming consensus is that not every tribe & nation has had the gospel preached to them which is also a event that must occour before the return. Care to comment on that. Using pm might be better than using this thread.

 

[snoochface]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I'm not confused about my standing as a Christian or anything - I feel like I'm on the right path and I'm continuing to read the Bible and study and learn. I'm not focusing a lot of my time and study on the end-times stuff, but it's hard for me to read, understand, and participate in discussions here and elsewhere without understanding the various philosophies and theories.

So if someone could tell me what pre-trib, post-trib, pre-millenium, post-millenium, and amillenium mean, I'd really appreciate it. What is supposed to occur before/after the tribulation? Before/after the millenium reign? What is amillenium - no millenium reign? Are any of these theories more accepted, or more scriptural, than others? And finally, is Revelation supposed to be taken literally, or is it symbolic?

Thanks

 

[vinc]

Glad to know that your interest has reached to find about end-times stuff. That is natural as a Christian and very much needed.

Read this post http://www.christianforums.com/t1170547-expected-events-of-the-present-and-future.html

It could be of some help....as i have found the article quite realistic after a fair amount of research.

Pre-Trib (or Pre-Tribulation Rapture) :- According to this thought, the faithful church comprising of all truly born-again christians are raptured (or caught-up or taken away in a heavenly body) in the air by Lord Jesus Christ before The Great Tribulation happens. This is why it is named as Pre-Tribulation Rapture i.e Rapture of the faithful Christians before the Tribulation. This thought also states that all truly born-again Christians won't have to face the wrath of the AntiChrist or The Great Tribulation but are taken to heaven for safety by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Mid-Trib (Mid-Tribulation Rapture) : According to this thought, the faithful Christians are raptured in between the AntiChrist and Great Tribulation period by Lord Jesus Christ. That is rapture in the middle of the tribulation and before the Millenial rule of Christ on earth.

Post-Trib (Post-Tribulation Rapture) : According to this thought, the faithful Christians have to pass through the AntiChrist period and also the period of the Great Tribulation before they are raptured by our Lord Jesus Christ. That is rapture after the Great Tribulation which means we have to face the AntiChrist and also undergo the Great Tribulation patiently. Also, Post-Tribulationists think that the rapture occurs before the 1000 year Millenial rule of Christ on earth.

Pre-Millenialism : Pre-Millenialism Teaches Christ failed to establish the kingdom that God promised because He was rejected by Jews. It says Christ will set up His kingdom when He comes the second time and rule 1000 years.
And they say He set up the church as a substitute.

Post-Millenialism : Post-Millenialism teaches that there has already been a Millenium and there is no more going to be a Millenial Reign in the future.

A-Millenium : According to this thought there won't be a literal 1000 year earthly reign of Lord Jesus Christ after the Tribulation period.

Majority of the Christians like, appreciate, cherish and support the Pre-Tribulation Rapture thought.

While some Christians do not believe Pre-Tribulation Rapture thought. They believe in the Mid-Trib or Post-Trib thoughts and accept them as Scriptural.

In my honest personal opinion, Pre-Millenialism Post-Millenialism and A-Millenialism are clearly Unscriptural. I tend to stick to Mid-Tribulation Rapture and Post-Tribulation Rapture thoughts which are clearly Scriptural than Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

IMHO Revelation has to be understood in some places symbolically and in some other places literally.

Sorry to say, but Left Behind books are not completely trustworthy for the study of end-times stuff. However, This is my personal opinion.

I sincerely urge you to read this excellent book on the Book of Revelation (The Final Triumph - A verse by verse study of Revelation). I am sure you are going to be blessed after reading this book.

The Final Triumph (Read it online) - http://poonen.org/zac/the_final_triumph.html

Download as an ebook and read it at your leisure - http://www.cfcindia.com/cda/books/ebooks/The_Final_Triumph.pdf

Lord bless you with clearer understanding of the end-times stuff,
Vincent

 

[Sketcher]

When I read Revelation, I believe Post-Tribulation rapture is the way to go, with Mid-Trib being a possibility. That's what the Scripture tells me. Also, we might as well prepare for the worst while hoping for the best. If the rapture becomes before the Tribulation, I'm going to have a very pleasant surprise. However, if it comes in the middle or after, the Pre-Trib Christians will have to get through a lot of dissolusionment because in their eyes, God didn't deliver on His promise to rapture them before the Tribulation. I'd much rather be pleasantly surprised.

In my honest personal opinion, Pre-Millenialism Post-Millenialism and A-Millenialism are clearly Unscriptural.

What then, do you believe about the Thousand Years?

 

[Pilgrim and stranger]

Is Revelation supposed to be taken literally like the Left Behind books portray it?

I recommend you purchase Charles Ryrie's Dispensationalism

 

[Pilgrim and stranger]

IMHO Revelation has to be understood in some places symbolically and in some other places literally.

How do you decide? Why was Christ's death not then symolic?

 

[hiumble1]

I think the first point would be to understand the Left Behind Series of Books are fiction based upon ou understanding of Revelation.

To look at prophetic end times I agree with some of the comments you can loose you life trying to understand it too much.

The point would be is to keep reading the Bible
Read also Daniel, there are end times prophecies in here as well.
Also Isaiah, ezekial, etc.

There numerous resources on the web that discuss Bible Prophecy.
The one piece of advice is to take ever man's word with a grain of salt and trust the Bible.

Example: In Daniel, the angel tells him to seal up the book until the time of the end. there are some who believe this to be in reference to Bible Code.

Good luck!
KEEP THE FAITH!!

 

[psalms 91]

to truly understand end time prophecies you will spend hundreds of hours studying, you must look at all the ot prophets as well as matthew 24, 1 thess chap5, revelation, etc. the important thing is to be ready to stand when those times come and be ready for the return of our lord

 

[WhoeverLovesGod01]

I doubt the "bible code". The Bible says all gospel should be understood and not presented so as to alienate people. Why therefore would the Bible contain a code? Besides, the code itself and it's "findings" are all questionable.

 

[bliz]

snoochface -

Welcome to the family!

I suggest that you put the Left Behind series and any other literature you have on End Times on a very high shelf and save them for a few years.

There is so much to learn in the Word and so many ways in which you will grow in the Spirit during the next several years. These subjects are those that CHristians have been arguing about since they were written and if you are pre or post or anything, it does not alter your salvation or relationship to Christ in any way and it will not alter the time of CHrist's return or the timetable of events.

Scripture clearly tells us that no man will know the time when CHrist returns. Silly me, I think that means that no one will know, which means that everyone with a theory of "when" is wrong.

Left Behind is one very badly written fictional telling of one perspective on final events. If you want to expand your faith, read something great, like Mere CHristianity by CS Lewis.

I'm not saying these matters are unimportant - they are in God's Word. But I do feel that if CHristians but half the energy they do into arguing premill or post mill or exactly where the rapture will take place in evangelism it would be a much better use of their time and effort.

I know, in some circles I hold a very minority opinion and some would doubt my salvation! but that's my perspective.

 

[E_Powers]

snoochface -

Welcome to the family!

I suggest that you put the Left Behind series and any other literature you have on End Times on a very high shelf and save them for a few years.

There is so much to learn in the Word and so many ways in which you will grow in the Spirit during the next several years. These subjects are those that CHristians have been arguing about since they were written and if you are pre or post or anything, it does not alter your salvation or relationship to Christ in any way and it will not alter the time of CHrist's return or the timetable of events.

i very much agree with must of your post but i feel the left behind series is fiction. it was gods intent for the series to get a christians attention to further look at stuff in the bible on their own. and we are to very much read these books if so lead to but the christian fiction i reccomend is pretribulation fiction.

 

[walking4faith]

When I read Revelation, I believe Post-Tribulation rapture is the way to go, with Mid-Trib being a possibility. That's what the Scripture tells me. Also, we might as well prepare for the worst while hoping for the best. If the rapture becomes before the Tribulation, I'm going to have a very pleasant surprise. However, if it comes in the middle or after, the Pre-Trib Christians will have to get through a lot of dissolusionment because in their eyes, God didn't deliver on His promise to rapture them before the Tribulation. I'd much rather be pleasantly surprised.

One of the main reasons I don't think the Rapture is after the Tribulation, is because when Jesus comes from Heaven, He is followed by armies riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean (Rev. 19:14).

Note, they are coming from heaven. And, a few paragraphs before this, Revelation 19:6-9 explains the Wedding Supper of the Lamb occuring in heaven- and the bride (all believers) are given the "fine linen, bright and clean" to wear. Sounds like same ones as who are coming from Heaven with Jesus at His 2nd Coming!

So, the Wedding Supper of the Lamb occurs in Heaven before Jesus comes back to earth.

Therefore, Rapture of all believers to the Wedding Supper has to happen either pre-trib or mid-trib. The other reason I don't believe it is mid-trib is because it will happen when we least expect it. At mid-trib, we will be able to calculate that there are exactly 3.5 years left before Jesus' 2nd coming, because there will have been peace in Israel for the first 3.5 years.

One more reason I think it's before Tribulation, is that Jesus said the Abomination of Desolation (Antichrist in rebuilt Temple declaring he is God) can't occur until the Restrainer is taken out of the way. Many take that to be the Holy Spirit in the world (which is in all believers).

Just some thoughts...

 

[Sketcher]

One of the main reasons I don't think the Rapture is after the Tribulation, is because when Jesus comes from Heaven, He is followed by armies riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean (Rev. 19:14).

Note, they are coming from heaven. And, a few paragraphs before this, Revelation 19:6-9 explains the Wedding Supper of the Lamb occuring in heaven- and the bride (all believers) are given the "fine linen, bright and clean" to wear. Sounds like same ones as who are coming from Heaven with Jesus at His 2nd Coming!

So, the Wedding Supper of the Lamb occurs in Heaven before Jesus comes back to earth.

However, this supper couldn't take place without every Christian, and nobody rises from the dead until chapter 20. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 along with Matthew 24:30-31 as well as Mark 13:26-27 clearly indicate that the rapture and the resurrection will both happen at once.

The other reason I don't believe it is mid-trib is because it will happen when we least expect it. At mid-trib, we will be able to calculate that there are exactly 3.5 years left before Jesus' 2nd coming, because there will have been peace in Israel for the first 3.5 years.

One more reason I think it's before Tribulation, is that Jesus said the Abomination of Desolation (Antichrist in rebuilt Temple declaring he is God) can't occur until the Restrainer is taken out of the way. Many take that to be the Holy Spirit in the world (which is in all believers).

Just some thoughts...

However, intense persection will definitely come to the saints before we are delivered. (Mt 24:9-25, Mk 13:9-25, Rev 13:10) We will definitely experience some tribulation.