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End of the Torah?!?!?

Discussion in 'Bible Verses' started by LawrenceRaymond, Sep 24, 2017.

  1. LawrenceRaymond

    LawrenceRaymond New Member

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    Here is an important and very beautiful phrase that is equally apparent in both Aramaic and in Greek:
    "Mashiyach is the end (Gk. telos) of the Torah, so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes" (Romans 10:4).

    While telos can mean, "end", it is very irresponsible to render it this way due to the flexibility of that term in the receiving language. In English, "end" has two meanings. The first is "termination" which is the majority usage of the word in English. However, we also have phrases such as "the ends do not justify the means." In this case, the lesser-used meaning is that of "goal", which applies in both Greek and English.

    Rav Shaul clearly refers to the Torah itself as "perfect, righteous, and good" (Romans 7:12), so it is very foolish to then think that he turns around and teaches the "termination" of Torah. Instead, and as Rav Shaul clearly teaches in Galatians 3, Torah is the tutor that instructs and brings people to Mashiyach. Then, when a person understands and accepts the fact that Y'shua is Mashiyach, he (Mashiyach) becomes Torah's goal. This is also one of the many teachings behind the cryptic remark in Yochanan 1, calling Y'shua the "Word (Torah/Miltha) made flesh." By extreme contrast, the NIV translation of Romans 10:4 is the exact opposite of what the original texts meant! NIV makes it sound like Rav Shaul is a train conductor calling out a stop--"End of the Torah! Everyone get off!"

    Furthermore, in certain key Renewed Covenant passages, telos can only mean "goal":

    "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to Elohim, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the goal (telos) is eternal life (Romans 6:22).

    "The goal (telos) of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith" (1st Timothy 1:5).

    "Obtaining as the goal (telos) of your faith the salvation of your souls" (1st Peter 1:9).

    In Aramaic we find these same verses have the same reading as "goal" with the word saka.
    Like telos, the context provides the key to realizing the intended meaning. Because Rav Shaul continually upholds Torah in every way (Romans 3:31), then "goal" is also very consistent with the rest of his teaching.

    {Taken from page 803 of Andrew Gabriel Roth's Appendixes section of his Aramaic-English New Testament}
     
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  2. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is not that the Torah is at an end, but that New Testament scripture says that believers in Christ are DEAD to the Law, ... and ALIVE to the SPIRIT in the SECOND COVENANT ...

    Romans 7

    4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.

    6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

    Hebrews 8

    6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

    8 For he finds fault with them when he says:c

    “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
    and with the house of Judah,
    9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
    on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
    For they did not continue in my covenant,
    and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
    after those days, declares the Lord:
    I will put my laws into their minds,
    and write them on their hearts,
    and I will be their God,
    and they shall be my people.
    11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
    and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
    for they shall all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest.
    12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
    and I will remember their sins no more.”

    13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
     
  3. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I recommend this article in regard to how Romans 10:4 has been historically translated:

    HOW IS CHRIST "THE END OF THE LAW''?
     
  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that these verses are not talking about the same thing. It wouldn't make any sense to say that we need to die to God's instructions for how to bear fruit for Him in that we might bear fruit for Him and it would make any sense to interpret the Spirit as being opposed to the Father.

    Rather, the issue is that there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Covenant as being a marriage between God and Israel, with God describing himself as her husband (Jeremiah 31:32), and with Israel's unfaithfulness being described in many places, which eventually got so bad that God wrote the Northern Kingdom a certificate of divorce, and they can only become divorced if they were first married (Jeremiah 3:8). The problem is that according to Deuteronomy 24:1-4, a woman was not permitted to return to her first husband after she had been divorced and been with another, yet God continued to call for her to return to Him (Jeremiah 3:1-14). The only way that she could be released from her adultery was if her first marriage was dissolved through the death of her husband, so it was a mystery how God would work this out. This is the point Paul is speaking about in Romans 7:1-4 when he was speaking to those who know the law, that we have died to the law of our husband through the death of Jesus that we might be free to belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God.

    In Galatians 5:19-21, it lists the works of the flesh that are against the Spirit as being sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these, so in Romans 7:5, while we were in the flesh these sinful passions were aroused by the law of sin to bear fruit unto death. Now that we are released from the law of sin, we can serve in the new way if the Spirit and not the old way of the written code, but according to the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), which are all in accordance with what God's Law was intended to instruct us how to do.

    Hebrews 8:4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law.

    If God's Law is no longer in force, then why does the author of Hebrews speak about priests still making offerings in accordance with the Law and why would it prevent Jesus from being a priest if he were on earth? Hebrews 8:6-13 does not say that God found fault with His eternal righteous standard or with His eternal instructions for how to live according to it, but rather God found fault with the people for breaking His law, so he would create a New Covenant where He would put His law in our minds and write in on our hearts so that we would obey it.
     
  5. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The purpose of the Law was not to instruct us on how to bear fruit for God (as the Israelites amply demonstrated).

    It was to demonstrate that we cannot faithfully bear fruit for God ... without His Spirit abiding within us.

    And Paul didn't say that we need to die to the Law. He taught that we ARE DEAD to the Law.
     
  6. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hebrews 8 says that God created a New Covenant where He would put His law in our minds and hearts ... so that we could maintain relationship/fellowship with Him (i.e. "Know Me").

    For His part He will be merciful unto us (regarding our iniquities) and remember our sin no more.

    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
    after those days, declares the Lord:
    I will put my laws into their minds,
    and write them on their hearts,
    and I will be their God,
    and they shall be my people.
    11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
    and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
    for they shall all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest.
    12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
    and I will remember their sins no more.”

    God desires our adoption of His character into our lives, ... but His main desire is our continued relationship with Him, ... which He facilitates by His forgiveness of our sins.
     
  7. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    There are many verses that speak about the Law as being God's instructions for how to walk in His ways (Deuteronomy 8:6, Deuteronomy 10:12-13). In other words, the Law was given to instruction how to act in accordance with God's character of holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), justice, mercy, faithfulness (Matthew 23:23), other fruits of the Spirit (Exodus 34:6-7, Galatians 5:22-23), and how to avoid sin or acting in accordance with the flesh (Romans 7:7). For example, when the Law instructs us that care for the poor is acting in accordance with God's righteousness, and when we reflect God's attributes to the world, we bear fruit for Him. So when Israel practiced obedience to God's instructions, they bore fruit for Him. The fact a portion of the time they didn't practice obedience to God's instructions does not show that His instructions are not in regard to how bear fruit for Him.

    There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that the Law was given for this purpose or that this was its only purpose.

    I misspoke, but the point remains the same. It wouldn't make any sense to say that we have died to the God's instructions for how to bear fruit for Him in that we might bear fruit for Him and it would make any sense to interpret the Spirit as being opposed to the Father.

    Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teaching, which is not his own, but that of the Father (John 14:23-24), and that faith in one of the weightier matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23), so following the Father's instructions has always been about growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love, and His instructions have always been about teaching us to adopt His character into our lives. When we help the poor, we reflect God's righteousness. God's instructions for how to reflect His righteousness can not be ended unless God's righteousness is first ended, but as Psalms 119:142 says, God's righteousness is eternal, so therefore according to Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are likewise eternal.
     
  8. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Galatians 3

    23 Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.

    24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.
     
  9. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So ... what is Paul teaching here ... ???
     
  10. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Paul said that all OT Scriptures were God-breathed and profitable for training in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work, so in Galatians 3:23-24, you think that he was saying that it not profitable to do those things? Now that Christ has come, we should no longer seek to God's instructions for how to do things that reflect His holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, and other fruits of the Spirit? Now that the way of faith as come we should not have faith in God's guidance about how to rightly live?

    Having no more need for a tutor is not at all the same thing as having no more need to live according to what what the tutor taught us - that would defeat the whole point of having a tutor. Now that Christ has come we have a superior teacher, but the subject matter is still how to walk in God's ways in accordance with His attributes. We no longer need to depend on the Law to teach us how to walk in God ways because we have Christ's teachings and example of how to do that, and we now have the Spirit, who has the role of leading us to obey God's Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

    Paul said that he was speaking to those who knew the Law (Romans 7:1) and was teaching in regard to Deuteronomy 24:1-14 about how Israel could become reconciled and remarried to God in spite of the fact that she had been divorced and her husband is alive through the loophole that her husband had died, which made her free to belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order to bear fruit for God (Romans 7:1-4).
     
  11. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree with you here, as you seem to be saying that, ... though the Law is profitable for us as a guide to the will of God, ... we are no longer BOUND to follow it to maintain relationship/fellowship with God (as we have the indwelling guidance of the Spirit).

    In this way, its teachings are profitable, ... in the way that a marriage guide might be profitable to a husband who has learned to LOVE his wife. Surely, at this point he doesn't NEED the marriage guide to steer him in pursuing a blessed marriagw with his wife (though he may occasionally consult it). And he should never FORGET the general truths taught there.

    However, he is not BOUND to follow all contained therein to obtain continuing success, for some of its instruction will be applicable to other periods in the life of the relationship. One might say that he will follow his LOVE for his wife in determining WHAT truths contained in the guide are applicable for this stage in his marriage.

    I think that most christians (in general) have regard for the Law (exemplified for most by the Ten Commandments), and that it continues to provide guidance to their walk with God. To this end, it is a vital part of the guidance God has provided to us (along with the teachings of Jesus, the prophets, the poetic OT writings, and the acts and writings of the Apostles). In that sense, it is like a reference, available to us for application ... as the Spirit guides.

    Where christians typically have disagreements about the Law ... regards WHICH PARTS of it are applicable for today (for noone follows its entirety). So, when christian brethren rally around keeping certain points of the Law ... it is wisdom for us to take our cues from the Spirit, who will infallibly guide us.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  12. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Speed limits are not needed for those who would normally drive at safe speeds, but for those who would otherwise drive at unsafe speeds. A marriage guide is not needed for a husband who has learned to love his wife because he is already living in accordance with everything it instructs, but rather it is needed for someone who is not live in accordance with everything it instructs. In the same way, instructions for how to do what is righteous in accordance with God's righteousness are not needed for those who are being led by the Spirit to do what is righteous, but for those who are not doing what is righteous. We have been declared righteous, so we are therefore required to do what is righteous. According to 1 John 3:10, anyone who does not practice righteousness is not a child of God, so following God's instructions for how to train in righteousness is not optional in any way. In 1 John 2:3-6, it says that those who are in Christ ought to walk in the same way that he walked, which was i n complete obedience to the Law, so this again in not optional. In Romans 6:15, it says that being under grace does not permit us to sin, so we are required to refrain from sin, and the Holy Spirit will not lead us to do anything that God has revealed in His Law to be sin. If we want to look up where the Spirit will guide us, then we can read the Law. God's righteousness is eternal, so the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness and to avoid sin is likewise eternal.

    Even when the Law was given to Moses, there was not a single person who was required to keep every single law, and not even Jesus was able to keep the laws in regard to a woman's period or to giving birth. Some laws were only for the King, the High Priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, widows, people living in the land, strangers living among them, and for everyone. Many laws also had other conditions under which they applied, such as the Sabbath that only applied when it is the 7th day, or laws in regard to temple practice that only apply when there is a temple in which to practice them. So I agree that not all laws apply to us today and that it is important to study which laws apply to us, but it is a study that should be undertaken with the attitude of finding out which laws we can get the divine privilege and delight of obeying and the opportunity to depend on God to guide us in what is for our own good rather than the attitude that God does not know how to give good gifts to his children and that we should seek excuses to avoid the burden of God's guidance if we don't have to. In John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, were were not his own, but that of the Father, so our love should lead us to seek opportunities to obey the Father's teachings, and our faith should lead us to completely depend on them for how to rightly live. David said many times that he delighted in obeying God's Law, that meditated on God's Law day and night, that he loved obey it, that those who obey it will be blessed, that those who obey it will find freedom, that he wanted God to show His grace to him by teaching him to obey His Law, etc., and Paul also said that he delighted in obeying God's Law (Romans 7:22), so that is the correct attitude to take towards it.
     
  13. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would agree with this statement, on the condition that we would agree that every participant in the New Covenant is subject to the leading of the Spirit.

    Such an understanding would align with mine, in that the Law is for unbelievers (i.e. to convict them of sin), ... which is not necessary for believers (as the Spirit convicts of sin). Note that I would agree that the Spirit may use the Law to convict a believer of sin.

    I don't understand how the external Law would be considered to be more efficacious than the internal Spirit for believers. If a person who is subject to the leading of the Spirit is committing sin, ... how is it that the Law will somehow improve upon that situation ?
     
  14. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is demonstrably untrue.

    For instance, nowhere in the Law are we instructed to pray, ... yet Jesus taught that men should ALWAYS pray.

    Also, the Law instructs upon the selling of one's daughter into servanthood. I would argue that such instruction is not applicable to today. Likewise, the Law's instruction regarding the responsibility of a brother to procreate offspring for his deceased barren brother ... with his deceased brother's widow.

    We need to set our nets much more broadly than the Law ... to discern all of God's will for us ...
     
  15. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    The law is the written terms of the Old Covenant between God and mankind. It spells out exactly what people under that covenant are expected to do.

    If you have accepted the terms of the New Covenant -- that Jesus death on the cross paid the price required for ALL sin -- then your behavior is guided by the Holy Spirit, which Jesus gave to direct everyone's behavior. Under the New Covenant there is no need for a written, external law.
     
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