Emergent Properties

[leftrightleftrightleft]

In our brains, neurons pass information/electricity between them in a very complicated network that leads to an emergent property we call "consciousness".

Why don't emergent properties like consciousness appear in other networks of information exchange? And would we be able to detect it if such an emergent property existed?

For example, the internet is a vast and complicated network composed of different components passing information between each other.

Does the internet have "emergent properties"?

 

[lesliedellow]

"Emergent properties" sounds like embarrassed hand waving to me.

 

[Strathos]

Internet has too much lag.

 

[Nick665]

Why don't emergent properties like consciousness appear in other networks of information exchange?

Why would you think that consciousness doesnt appear in other animals ?

 

[Davian]

In our brains, neurons pass information/electricity between them in a very complicated network that leads to an emergent property we call "consciousness".

Why don't emergent properties like consciousness appear in other networks of information exchange? And would we be able to detect it if such an emergent property existed?

For example, the internet is a vast and complicated network composed of different components passing information between each other.

Does the internet have "emergent properties"?

Depends on what you mean by "the internet".

The way I understand it, the human brain is a noisy place, awash in sensory input, with each part of the brain doing its part, and our "consciousness", or transparent self-model/phenomenal self, emerging from that noise to provide what we experience as awareness.

As a series of interconnected computer networks, the built-in error correction of the devices and software stamp out that noise. Same with your personal computer; the analogy between the complex biological systems and digital computer circuitry/software is a very poor one. Looking at the internet from the level of an Ethernet packet, is it a busy but quiet place.

However, how we humans use the internet can result in some emergent properties.

Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Davian]

"Emergent properties" sounds like embarrassed hand waving to me.

"God did it" sounds like embarrassed hand waving to me.

 

[lesliedellow]

"God did it" sounds like embarrassed hand waving to me.

The inadequacy of the current scientific paradigm, when it comes to accounting for the fact that we are actually conscious, has nothing to do with religion as such. Occasional claims to have solved the problem usually amount to no more than an attempt to define it away.

 

[Davian]

The inadequacy of the current scientific paradigm, when it comes to accounting for the fact that we are actually conscious, has nothing to do with religion as such. Occasional claims to have solved the problem usually amount to no more than an attempt to define it away.

Therefore, gods? How does that work?

 

[lesliedellow]

Therefore, gods? How does that work?

As it happens I believe there is a God, but you are putting words into my mouth. I just know the sound of an embarrassed materialist when I hear one.

 

[SkyWriting]

In our brains, neurons pass information/electricity between them in a very complicated network that leads to an emergent property we call "consciousness".

Why don't emergent properties like consciousness appear in other networks of information exchange? And would we be able to detect it if such an emergent property existed?

For example, the internet is a vast and complicated network composed of different components passing information between each other.

Does the internet have "emergent properties"?

There are similarities. But none than count.

Our brains form from one cell. It may be that quantum physics has given us the gift of "entanglement". This means all the cells in our body, especially our brain are "entangled" and aware of the others. The internet has no such common origins.

This would explain why we are very aware of ourselves, why twins are somewhat in tune with each other, siblings and parents are "in tune" with each other, and usually strangers, not at all. "Mediums" may be nothing other than people who have a common or similar or even blood relation with a lot of people. They may (or may not) have similar networks of various levels of entanglement with other biological minds.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Why would you think that consciousness doesnt appear in other animals ?

Other animals are conscious in my opinion. I don't think my OP implied that other animal brains are not conscious.

I was more asking whether other complex information exchange systems (like the internet, computers, etc) could also have some emergent property akin to "consciousness".

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Depends on what you mean by "the internet".

The way I understand it, the human brain is a noisy place, awash in sensory input, with each part of the brain doing its part, and our "consciousness", or transparent self-model/phenomenal self, emerging from that noise to provide what we experience as awareness.

As a series of interconnected computer networks, the built-in error correction of the devices and software stamp out that noise. Same with your personal computer; the analogy between the complex biological systems and digital computer circuitry/software is a very poor one. Looking at the internet from the level of an Ethernet packet, is it a busy but quiet place.

However, how we humans use the internet can result in some emergent properties.

Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you think its possible to engineer a computer with sufficient noise and random input that some level of consciousness could be achieved?

 

[Davian]

As it happens I believe there is a God, but you are putting words into my mouth. I just know the sound of an embarrassed materialist when I hear one.

"God did it" does sound like embarrassed hand waving to me. It explains nothing. Why believe in gods at all?

"Emergent properties" is a valid term in science. Try studying the behaviour of an ant colony using only one ant.

Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Emergence is the way complex systems and patterns arise out of a multiplicity of relatively simple interactions. Emergence is central to the theories of integrative levels and of complex systems.

Biology can be viewed as an emergent property of the laws of chemistry which, in turn, can be viewed as an emergent property of particle physics. "

What does an embarrassed materialist sound like?

 

[lesliedellow]

"God did it" does sound like embarrassed hand waving to me. It explains nothing. Why believe in gods at all?

You are again putting words into my mouth'

What does an embarrassed materialist sound like?

He sounds like somebody who uses a meaningless term like "emergent properties" without having a clue about how it is supposed to "emerge".

It sounds "scientific," so that's alright then.

 

[Davian]

You are again putting words into my mouth'

Not at all. I did ask you a question: why believe in gods, if they have no explanatory power?

He sounds like somebody who uses a meaningless term like "emergent properties" without having a clue about how it is supposed to "emerge".

It sounds "scientific," so that's alright then.

As I said, try studying the behaviour of an ant colony using only one ant.

Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Emergence is the way complex systems and patterns arise out of a multiplicity of relatively simple interactions. Emergence is central to the theories of integrative levels and of complex systems.

Biology can be viewed as an emergent property of the laws of chemistry which, in turn, can be viewed as an emergent property of particle physics. "

Are you anti-science?

 

[Davian]

Do you think its possible to engineer a computer with sufficient noise and random input that some level of consciousness could be achieved?

I suppose an analog computer of some sort might get there, but they are currently limitations on the amount of data they can store. Evolution has had a lot longer to work at that problem.

The other option is to create a simulation of a consciousness, or self-aware program - an interactive self-model that is aware of itself, and the world around it, but not necessarily aware that it is just software in a machine (to replicate the "transparency" of our own self-model).

 

[lesliedellow]

Not at all. I did ask you a question: why believe in gods, if they have no explanatory power?

Because I believe God to exist. That he forms no part of any scientific theory is completely irrelevant.

As I said, try studying the behaviour of an ant colony using only one ant.

Complete nonsense. There is doubtless a viable explanation as to how ants communicate to produce their collective behaviour.

Are you anti-science?

No, I am anti-obscurantism, and the pretence that an explanation is available when it isn't.

 

[Davian]

Because I believe God to exist. That he forms no part of any scientific theory is completely irrelevant.

You believe God to exist because you believe God to exist. How circular.

Complete nonsense. There is doubtless a viable explanation as to how ants communicate to produce their collective behaviour.

Collective and emergent would seem interrelated, in this context.

Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"An emergent behavior or emergent property can appear when a number of simple entities (agents) operate in an environment, forming more complex behaviors as a collective. "

No, I am anti-obscurantism, and the pretence that an explanation is available when it isn't.

By what method do you determine that an explanation is not available?

 

[lesliedellow]

You believe God to exist because you believe God to exist. How circular.

I neither asked for, nor need, your approval for my religious views.

Collective and emergent would seem interrelated, in this context.

"Emergent" is an empty word, which is here being transparently used to cover up a lack of knowledge.

By what method do you determine that an explanation is not available?

I determine that no explanation is available when all I hear is pure bombast.

 

[Davian]

I neither asked for, nor need, your approval for my religious views.

Indeed. Not with the power of circular logic at your disposal.

"Emergent" is an empty word, which is here being transparently used to cover up a lack of knowledge.

Wikipedia awaits your edits.

I determine that no explanation is available when all I hear is pure bombast.

I bow to your omniscience.